Logic Vs Faith

[PapaToad]

My friends.

Here is the challenge I have with Logic. And I will never claim to have more logic than to not tell my wife she’s gained weight (WHICH SHE HASN”T!)) Cough* Cough*
And keeping my hand out of a open flame, **which still gets me from time to time**


You who (Non Believers) are so hung up on logic please explain the LOGICALNESS of Love.

Why do you logically love your wife, your daughter, ( Or Stepchildren), family and your friends?

What are the Logical reasons for your favorite color, or music?

What is the logical reason you own the car you do? (Safety conscious folks are exempt) Muscle car owners are not. Or better yet, what was the logical reason being the color? (Insurance agents exempt)

What is the logical reason you like certain art, but not others?

I charge you that its not so much logic as its emotion and taste. I do not love God do to any logic. Its Faith, and with that Faith comes my trust in God, and in My savoir Lord Jesus Christ.

You may not believe because its not logical, but you do not base all your decisions in life off logic.

I always believed to make all the small decisions with my head, and the big ones with me heart.

I bet most everyone who is a Christian does not pick logic. I myself decide by faith and test it against scripture. WHY? That just what I do, I feel lead to that. If you do not like my answer. Well to bad

Lutz Enterprises bases nothing off logic and it’s the most successful marketing companies to date.

So much for logic


So I ask you , in reality, my friends, do you (Everyone on these forums) based your decisions on logic or faith, or even emotion.

 

[timor]

As depressing as this post was, I'm glad that you at least recognize that faith and logic are fiercely opposed. You seem to have taken up the burden of Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation, in your attack on reason.

I began to go into a lengthy dissertation on reason, but I deleted it and decided to keep it simple:

Why would you ever choose to embrace something that is admittedly illogical, and thus irrational? It makes absolutely no sense, and it will not get you far in life.

Love and emotions are due to chemical reactions occuring in my brainlimbic system, more specifically, areas of the brain such as the imbic cortex and the amygdale.

However, emotions are not always rational; in fact, they are often downright irrational. Giving your actions up entirely to emotion (i.e. fits of rage) can have disastrous consequences. Thank "god" for reason, huh? If it weren't for reason, you would act on your every whim, likely, murdering and raping random passer-bys, similar to Phineas Gage, whose left brain (the side which controls logical thinking) was largely destroyed by a railroad spike.

Regardless, you are confusing issues. Emotion can never bring you to knowledge; only reason can. Faith also fails to demonstrate anything reasonably. Reason and logic alone can do this. The existence of God can in no way be shown by emotion. Luckily, logic comes to the rescue.

If God's existence were to be proven soley by human feelings, which god should we believe in? Surely you are not so ignorant as to believe that adherents to your faith alone feel such strong emotional convictions? Heck, you would probably even discount certain Christian sects (i.e. those who became "drunk with the Holy Spirit" during the Pensacola Revival) whose only "proof" is emotion.

Emotions may conflict, but sound and valid logic never will.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

why were we made like that?

 

[PapaToad]

Thank you for your insight. But I think you misunderstood my question.. Am I to believe you make every decision in your life out of Logic??

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 10 2004,1:23)]

Quote[/b] ]My friends.

Here is the challenge I have with Logic. And I will never claim to have more logic than to not tell my wife she’s gained weight (WHICH SHE HASN”T!)) Cough* Cough*
And keeping my hand out of a open flame, **which still gets me from time to time**

First of all, I think you need to define what Logic is, so we are all on the same page. This analogy demonstrates that you do NOT know what it is. Saying your wife is fat has nothing to do with logic, that would lie in the real of WISDOM. Hence, it is WISE to simply smile and nod when you wife mentions her weight.

Quote[/b] ]You who (Non Believers) are so hung up on logic please explain the LOGICALNESS of Love.

Again, I'm not sure you understand what LOGIC means. Hence, I cannot be sure of the intention of the question. Love, however, is an emotion. Love is a strong affection for another. Humans have feelings, therefore attraction to another which leads to love. There are many different typse of love as well. Agape, Eros, et al.

Quote[/b] ]
Why do you logically love your wife, your daughter, ( Or Stepchildren), family and your friends?

What are the Logical reasons for your favorite color, or music?

What is the logical reason you own the car you do? (Safety conscious folks are exempt) Muscle car owners are not. Or better yet, what was the logical reason being the color? (Insurance agents exempt)

What is the logical reason you like certain art, but not others?

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with LOGIC. These are simply PREFERENCES.

Quote[/b] ]I charge you that its not so much logic as its emotion and taste. I do not love God do to any logic. Its Faith, and with that Faith comes my trust in God, and in My savoir Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, you are confusing the issues at hand. Faith doesn't measure your love any more than Logic does. You're talking about love, what I'm talking about is Logically explaining the existence of god. Somehow you've intertwined the two.

Quote[/b] ]You may not believe because its not logical, but you do not base all your decisions in life off logic.

This is true. Not all decisions are made logically. Some are made under duress, some are made in the heat of the moment, some are based off of feelings.

So what's your point?

When you buy a candy bar, are you governed by logic or by preference? Preference wins out here. You like the taste, no matter how bad the candy may be for you.

When you buy a car, are you goverened by logic or by preference? Logic wins out here. Sure, the Porsche is shiny red and goes fast, but it isn't suitable for a family of four on a budget.

Now which do you think is closer to considering the belief in a diety?

Quote[/b] ]I always believed to make all the small decisions with my head, and the big ones with me heart.

Why? You're telling me you would make the candy purchase with your head and a car or home purchase with your heart? I think you need to define what the BIG ONES are.

Quote[/b] ]I bet most everyone who is a Christian does not pick logic. I myself decide by faith and test it against scripture. WHY? That just what I do, I feel lead to that. If you do not like my answer. Well to bad

I would be willing to believe that most Christians do not pick their faith by logic. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ILLOGICAL. Don't like my answer? Well too bad! (See how silly that sounds?)

Quote[/b] ]Lutz Enterprises bases nothing off logic and it’s the most successful marketing companies to date.

I have no idea what Lutz Ent. is. But I seriously doubt they base NOTHING off of logic. Logic keeps a business running. How do you pay the bills, gain clients, etc without logical thinking?

Quote[/b] ]So I ask you , in reality, my friends, do you (Everyone on these forums) based your decisions on logic or faith, or even emotion.

The answer is simple: ALL THREE.

The trick is knowing which type to use for a given circumstance.

Believing in a god requires LOGIC, not emotion.

 

[PapaToad]

*****Believing in a god requires LOGIC, not emotion*******

Whew thanks for clearing that up. But I think your wrong their DV. TOO YOU believing in God requires Logic.
But from what I have seen on these forums that would not be the case for most Christians. But that does seem to be the trend of those who do not believe. Logically it does not makes sense to believe in any god, much less the Savoir Lord Jesus Christ.
So once again you and I, dear friend, come to the crux of our challenges, Your belief in God or any god is a point of Logic. Mine and I dare say a lot of Christians, our belief in God lies in our heart.  (Faith)
My point is and was few people use logic consistently in their lives. I for one do not. But I am odd. I know this and relish in it. And any Christian who says they logically found God; well I would be hard pressed to understand it.

Believing in God does not require logic, in fact the bible say it takes faith that is the main point. You need faith to believe. I am not concerned what you think you need to understand god. I am emphasizing that for a Christian to believe in God he needs FAITH. The bible says so.  You may disagree. And I respect your opinion. Just please respect mine. I do not need logic,  Infact the Bible (NIV) does not mention logic once. So apparent I could conclude, that’s not what I need to believe in God. Which then exposes why you have trouble with the bible and faith. I do pray that passes  

 

;  Here are some definitions

I really like # 2:b1 and 2  I am not attacking you I am just asking that you understand that we do not need logic to believe.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths 'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs


Easton's Bible Dictionary
@@@@Faith - Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests.
Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge****( I charge this refers to knowledge of scripture or of God)**MA*** is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding. Assent to the truth is of the essence of faith, and the ultimate ground on which our assent to any revealed truth rests is the veracity of God.
Historical faith is the apprehension of and assent to certain statements which are regarded as mere facts of history.
Temporary faith is that state of mind which is awakened in men (e.g., Felix) by the exhibition of the truth and by the influence of religious sympathy, or by what is sometimes styled the common operation of the Holy Spirit.
Saving faith is so called because it has eternal life inseparably connected with it. It cannot be better defined than in the words of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism: "Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel."
The object of saving faith is the whole revealed Word of God. Faith accepts and believes it as the very truth most sure. But the special act of faith which unites to Christ has as its object the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:38; Acts 16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom. 3:22, 25; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; John 3:16-36; Acts 10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all his offices.
This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting in, or resting in Christ. It is that state of mind in which a poor sinner, conscious of his sin, flees from his guilty self to Christ his Saviour, and rolls over the burden of all his sins on him. It consists chiefly, not in the assent given to the testimony of God in his Word, but in embracing with fiducial reliance and trust the one and only Saviour whom God reveals. This trust and reliance is of the essence of faith. By faith the believer directly and immediately appropriates Christ as his own. Faith in its direct act makes Christ ours. It is not a work which God graciously accepts instead of perfect obedience, but is only the hand by which we take hold of the person and work of our Redeemer as the only ground of our salvation.
Saving faith is a moral act, as it proceeds from a renewed will, and a renewed will is necessary to believing assent to the truth of God (1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:4). Faith, therefore, has its seat in the moral part of our nature fully as much as in the intellectual. The mind must first be enlightened by divine teaching (John 6:44; Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 1:17, 18) before it can discern the things of the Spirit.
Faith is necessary to our salvation (Mark 16:16), not because there is any merit in it, but simply because it is the sinner's taking the place assigned him by God, his falling in with what God is doing.
The warrant or ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the reasonableness of what God says, but the simple fact that he says it. Faith rests immediately on, "Thus saith the Lord." But in order to this faith the veracity, sincerity, and truth of God must be owned and appreciated, together with his unchangeableness. God's word encourages and emboldens the sinner personally to transact with Christ as God's gift, to close with him, embrace him, give himself to Christ, and take Christ as his. That word comes with power, for it is the word of God who has revealed himself in his works, and especially in the cross. God is to be believed for his word's sake, but also for his name's sake. @@@@@@@

Faith is my foundation (Montrez Anthony)

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 11 2004,9:43)]Logically it does not makes sense to believe in any god, much less the Savoir Lord Jesus Christ.

Once you can freely admit that, the atheist's job is done. There's really nothing more to be said. Thanks for admitting that you're irrational, as is your god.

 

[CCGR]

we're capable of looking up words in a dictionary, and careful timor on calling our Lord names

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Nov. 11 2004,1:43)]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 11 2004,9:43)]Logically it does not makes sense to believe in any god, much less the Savoir Lord Jesus Christ.

Once you can freely admit that, the atheist's job is done. There's really nothing more to be said. Thanks for admitting that you're irrational, as is your god.

There’s lots more to say I am called by the King most high to preach the gospel to all nations so they may here the message of salvation.

I am here to reflect my Master and Savior Lord Jesus Christ and be a disciple

I am called to cast out demons, heal the sick, and raise the Dead!

I have been given the great commission from Christ himself!

I have been taught the Greatest of commandments and Laws and share it freely with those that wish to know, My fellow Christians, the hurting and the lost.

I am called to fellowship with my brothers and sisters and encourage them in Christ.

You my friend, may be wining a debate, I am fighting spiritual battle that has a cost not of words and emotions, but of souls and lifestyles.

So you have the privilege of thinking you Won, I have the burden of praying for you.

And the saddest part is you have no appreciation of who does what for you as you slap us in the face


Go with Christ
Go in Peace

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Nov. 11 2004,3:26)]we're capable of looking up words in a dictionary

Then I ask why is is so hard for some to understand the difference between Faith and Logic??

I am very perplexed by that?

 

[Mr.Bill]

I do not think it is fair to critisize logic for not being able to give us all the answers, because you never just use logic to decide what to believe. You use it in conjunction with faith and emotion. However, if you're goal is truth, and you are not satisfied with anything but truth, then logic is the only way to go. Faith can lead you towards the right answer, but it will only get you there if you are lucky. Emotion is the same way. So in arguementation it is very important to have a strong basis on logic when making your points, for otherwise they could be based on something other than what is true. This is also where evidence comes in, as evidence allows us to understand various portions of that which is 'true'.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

well. the things science doesn't explain, that's not physical stuff. that's god or satan whatever. so the gaps are not unknown, it's just out of our mind's capacity to think about.

 

[Mr.Bill]

But we're never going to get any closer unless we excersise our minds' analytical abilities.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

well. we've been trying for let's see.... i dunno.
we've been worshiping the "sun god, or the "moon god, or whoever" for since as long as i can see... (i mean like i dunno how much time has gone by)

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]*****Believing in a god requires LOGIC, not emotion*******

Whew thanks for clearing that up. But I think your wrong their DV. TOO YOU believing in God requires Logic.

I point you back to my analogies.

Why would it be RIGHT for a father of a family of four, on a budget, to base his car buying decision on EMOTION instead of LOGIC?

Believing in a god is one of THE most important decisions one could make. Why base that on illogical assumptions and gut instinct?

Quote[/b] ]
But from what I have seen on these forums that would not be the case for most Christians. But that does seem to be the trend of those who do not believe. Logically it does not makes sense to believe in any god, much less the Savoir Lord Jesus Christ.

Take a step back, take a deep breath, and ponder this statement just a bit.

Quote[/b] ] So once again you and I, dear friend, come to the crux of our challenges, Your belief in God or any god is a point of Logic. Mine and I dare say a lot of Christians, our belief in God lies in our heart. (Faith)

Why? Because you CANNOT base belief in a god on a logical, sound reason. Instead, you WANT to believe in something like God because it makes your life EASIER. That is the historical purpose of gods. To answer questions that were difficult. Ultimately those were the WRONG answers.

Quote[/b] ]My point is and was few people use logic consistently in their lives. I for one do not. But I am odd. I know this and relish in it. And any Christian who says they logically found God; well I would be hard pressed to understand it.

I disagree. The MAJORITY of people in this world base the MAJORITY of their lives around logic. I include you there as well. If you did not, how could you go to school, find a job, pay your bills. To say otherwise is a fallacy.

Quote[/b] ]
Believing in God does not require logic, in fact the bible say it takes faith that is the main point.

Because it is NOT POSSIBLE to believe logically in a god. You said so yourself above.

Quote[/b] ]You need faith to believe. I am not concerned what you think you need to understand god. I am emphasizing that for a Christian to believe in God he needs FAITH. The bible says so. You may disagree. And I respect your opinion. Just please respect mine.

Actually, I agree with you. God, any god, cannot exist without faith. Faith is the belief in the unbelievable, in things that cannot be proven. Therefore, you need to have FAITH to believe in things like God, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

Quote[/b] ]I do not need logic, Infact the Bible (NIV) does not mention logic once. So apparent I could conclude, that’s not what I need to believe in God. Which then exposes why you have trouble with the bible and faith. I do pray that passes

You are only reinforcing my point. Thank you.

Why would you pray that I lose my logical capacity? That is a horrid notion. That's like me saying I wish you'd snap out of your stupid delusional belief in a hokey god. Strong words, no? That is EXACTLY how I feel when people say things like that to me. There is NOTHING wrong with logical processes. It keeps me from believing in things like the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and God. Praying that I "snap out of it" is NOT a labor of love. I don't wish evil upon you, don't do it to me. If you feel that way fine, but please don't say things like that again. I honestly find it offensive.

As for faith, I prefer the simple, biblical definition of faith. It sums it up nicely.

Yes, faith is your foundation. But not all foundations are created equally.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Nov. 11 2004,6:19)]well. we've been trying for let's see.... i dunno.
we've been worshiping the "sun god, or the "moon god, or whoever" for since as long as i can see... (i mean like i dunno how much time has gone by)

LOL, you're digging your own grave.

Sure, god worship was silly, but GUESS WHAT? YOU'RE STILL DOING IT!

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Most of the desicions I make, are not based off of logic, for example staying up into the wee hours of the night playing video games, while I know it isn't good for me, I do it anyway, because I enjoy it.
Without preference, I would be a robot, unable to decide what I like and dislike. My desicion to follow Jesus as my Lord and Savior is likewise not based of Logic. I believe in supernatural forces such as consious, and I know in my heart that God is who he says he is in his word. Jesus either had to be right, a liar, or a lunitic when he said he was Christ. Strangly enough there are other sources than the Bible that attest to Jesus being real, we seperate our years as B.C. and A.D. (B.C. meaning Before Christ, and A.D. being latin for year of our Lord, for those of you who for some obscure reason might not have known.) It is in Jesus's name that many pray, and many more curse. There is an entire Religion after Christ. Logical or not, I believe in Jesus. And even if when I die, I there is no heaven, or hell, or other supernatural (which I can't be convinced to disbelieve) then I will rot and decompose... I also will have lead a good life (based on the fact, I for the most part follow God's morals). You might say that Buddha and Mohamed (I probably spelled those wrong) also have a religion because of them, but I never heard of Before Buddha, or someone cursing in Mohameds name. There must be a reason that Jesus had a larger impact than they did. Thats my "Logic" for believing in Christ.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Again, it's not fair to discount the usefullness of logic becuase it cannot be used to answer all of our problems. However, it is important to incorperate it, for it's function as a bedrock of truth.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Faith and emotion, largely. But if you focus on only these two, bad things happen.

 

[Marcylene]

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.  Romans 12:2

How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!  Proverbs 16:16

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.  Matthew 10:16

The Bible says every good and perfect gift is from above.  I must admit, reasoning and logic would fall into that category.  Oh the glory of our free will brains and our ability to use them!  

Shadrach, Meshack, and Abedego were choosen because of their intelligence.  

Children in whom was no blemish, but wellfavoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.  Daniel 1:4  

I try to do EVERYTHING by faith.  I want every step, every breath, every heartbeat to bring honor and glory to the LORD.  Therefore, MA, in answer to the original question, I depend on faith and cling tightly to Romans 8:28 that He is taking care of me.  I want to walk by faith and not by sight.  I want the Word to be a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

He gave us our minds to use.  I think we need to be careful that we do not listen to the enemy and his slanted view of knowledge, in effect, that of being smarter than God Himself and questioning Him.  Just as the story of the talents, how will we use our gift?  I will use logic and reasoning and keep my eyes on the LORD.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.  I Corinthians 10:31

Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God neither were thankful; but became vain he their imaginations, and their foolish heart darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.  Amen.  Romans 1:21~25

Quote[/b] ]Logic in Apologetics

    Logic is typically very important in apologetics. To defend the faith, the Christian must use truth, facts, and reason appropriately and prayerfully. The Christian should listen to objections and make cogent and rational comments in direct response to the issues raised.
    Logic is simply a tool in the arsenal of Christian apologetics. Logic is a system of reasoning. It is the principles of proper thinking used to arrive at correct conclusions. Of course, some people are better at thinking logically than others and there is no guarantee that using logic to the best of one's ability will bring conversion of anyone. After all, logic is not what saves a person. Jesus does that and we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1).  
    Therefore, the proper use of logic in apologetics is to remove intellectual barriers that hinder a person from accepting Jesus as Savior. Logic is not to be looked at as the answer to every problem facing Christianity or every objection raised.  Logic has its limits. It cannot guarantee wisdom. It cannot prove or disprove inspiration or love.  It cannot replace the intuition gained through experience, the prompting of the Holy Spirit, nor the clear truth of God's word.  Nevertheless, logic is still very valuable and can be quite powerfully used by people both the saved and unsaved.

 
--- http://www.carm.org/apologetics/logic.htm