Medical Marijuana

[Arkanjel]

Back to the Medical Marijuana subject as BG suggested, let me pose you this question. I will say beforehand that there are many sides to the issue, but sticking to JUST medical marijuana let me present this scenario.

Your dear grand-mother (yes I'm going there because it brings it home) has just been fighting cancer and undergoing radiation treatments to try and slow the process. These some might say barbaric radiation treatments have weakened grandma's strength and she is constantly feeling nauseated. The doctors who much like you don't want to see poor grandma suffer any more than you do give her a prescription for medical marijuana. Now then, what do you do? She can smoke it and ease her pain in these twilight years of her life and help with the nausea, or not and endure pain that you and I can only imagine since we haven't been in that position.

Taking all of the above into account, i.e. its considered a regulated narcotic, its all natural, and since its prescribed its government grown. How would you feel about grandma getting high so that she isn't vomiting and feeling sick all day? Would you still stand with a firm foot and tell her, NO, its not right? Would you help poor grandma out and help her light it and then sit close enough by to get some of the second hand? (sorry had to lighten it up a bit!) There in lies your moral dilemma in its strictest regards to the topic at hand. Yes there are many ways to abuse the system, but in regards to what it is designed for and its intended purpose, where do you stand?

 

[tjguitarz]

Wow Arkanjel, picking on my grandma?

In a case like that, hum... I guess I would have to help that crazy old lady out.

But huh, Arkanjel, you really got me thinking. If it were my girlfriend, I'd do anything to ease her pain (even breaking the law myself to get her some doobies). I want to say there has to be better alternatives, but it might be a side effect of 12 years of public schools yelling "ALL DRUGS ARE BAD!"

As for the radiation treatments... check out this article.

 

[blackgravity]

I still think that (most likely) if marijuana became a mainstream medical treatment there would be some sort of development to keep the patient from the receiving the high involved. Most likely a tweaked indica strain to give that heavy body high without the mental one. I'm not all that against it as a theory, I just think the current system is abused way too much.

 

[Tek7]

Wow. This thread is on its third page already. Nice.

There's been some great discussion so far, some of it off-topic, but still an interesting read.

I had posted a thread in the Religious Discussion forum a while back asking why it is a sin to smoke marijuana. If I remember, that thread was quickly de-railed and the RD forum was closed shortly after. This topic has addressed some of the points and questions I wanted to raise, though I do want to make sure that we discuss the original topic posted.

We should start by clearly defining what we mean by "medical marijuana" and "drug." We need to distinguish between prescription drugs, like Vicodin, and illegal narcotics, like cocaine. What determines the difference?

A few important questions I think we should ask:

• Does medical marijuana produce an altered state of consciousness?
• Is there an alternative to medical marijuana when prescribing medication for a given condition?
• Is medical marijuana the best medication to treat a given condition (i.e. glaucoma)?

And though it may produce a few off-topic posts, I want to post two other questions:

• Is it a sin to smoke marijuana? If so, then why (other than because it's illegal)?
• What are the differences between drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana?

Finally, I leave you with this information on Marinol, a form of medical marijuana.

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

I light up occasionally...

 

[tjguitarz]

1 Corinthians 8: 11-13
11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

Translation: If you're doing ANYTHING to let another person slip or fall into sin, then you're sinning against Jesus Christ. I think we need to consider that people are going to see my grandma smoking pot and say, "Well, if grandma can do it, why can't I?"

And yes, I know that this argument can be used on numerous things, including over-21 drinking (which I have no problem with assuming the individuals are responsible), but it's still something to think about.

 

[blackgravity]

*DISCLAIMER* NSFW or minors link contained at bottom

This post contains a link to what might be considered "not work safe" and I recommend that nobody under the age of 18 visit. Just contains some facts, or "facts" about medicinal marijuana. Just trying to cover my bases.

I'll take a stab at some of these questions, although I am speaking from a strictly personal experience point of view.

A few important questions I think we should ask:

• Does medical marijuana produce an altered state of consciousness?

Yes. Any kind of marijuana, if it is smoked or ingested (and even that pill since it contains THC) is going to produce an altered state of consciousness, physically and mentally. That's why people do it in the first place.

• Is there an alternative to medical marijuana when prescribing medication for a given condition?

I think it's safe to say that medical marijuana is the alternative, as there are options that are FDA approved for the conditions people wish to have marijuana prescribed.

• Is medical marijuana the best medication to treat a given condition (i.e. glaucoma)?

I think that all depends on who you ask. Whether you are a supporter of the medicinal use of marijuana or not, it is not a medication. The FDA strongly opposes the smoking of ANYTHING for a medicinal purpose, seeing that you are breathing s m o k e. No matter what symptoms it may relieve, it's still bad for you.

From concept420.com:

The human eyeball is filled with fluid, which exerts pressure to keep the eyeball spherical. Glaucoma is a condition where the channels through which the fluid flows gradually become blocked, and the intraocular pressure gradually increases, causing increasing damage to the optic nerve, and gradual deterioration of vision. Glaucoma is the second-largest cause of blindness, and affects 1.5 % of 50-year olds and 5 % of seventy-year olds.

Standard treatments have unpleasant or dangerous side effects, and have little effect on intraocular pressures in end-stage glaucoma. Cannabis however lowers intraocular pressures dramatically, with none of the serious side effects. Patients who find that standard medicines do not help their conditions report that smoking cannabis quickly restores their vision. Many long-term glaucoma patients have successfully maintained their sight using cannabis for 20 or 25 years, and avoided the gradual painfull deterioration to blindness that is otherwise enevitable.

However older generations, who are most at risk of glaucoma do not appreciate the euphoric side effects of smoked or ingested cannabis. There is also concern about the effects on the cardio-vasculat system. There is hope that a cannabis-containing eyedrop could be developed in the future which would have no side effects but this is made difficult since cannabinoids are not water soluble.

Ironically the discovery that cannabis lowers intraocular pressure was made accidentally during a police experiment. They were trying to discover if cannabis caused pupil dilation in users, so that they could detect and arrest them more easily!

I'm not really all that sure how unbiased or trustworthy this website is for anything concerning evidence, but I'd guess it's as reputable as High Times or any other place of the like. You can check out their page on medicinal marijuana here.

As I hope it says at the top, I don't recommend anyone at work, or anyone under the age of 18 to visit said website. There's nothing offensive that I saw, however it does deal with a touchy subject.

I'll try and get my opinions on the other questions in a while, I just got back from running and need some food.

 

[tjguitarz]

THE EYEBALL THING

That's really interesting. It'd be interesting to see how long it takes them to isolate the specific chemical that "fixes" glaucoma.

 

[Arkanjel]

I know there are other alternatives to "smoking" marijuana. It is possible to inhale the THC only by using a vaporizer that just heats up. You still have to inhale through the mouth, but you don't get any of the carcinogens involved with smoke since its just a vapor.

Addressing TJ's above post:

1 Corinthians 8: 11-13
11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

Translation: If you're doing ANYTHING to let another person slip or fall into sin, then you're sinning against Jesus Christ. I think we need to consider that people are going to see my grandma smoking pot and say, "Well, if grandma can do it, why can't I?"

And yes, I know that this argument can be used on numerous things, including over-21 drinking (which I have no problem with assuming the individuals are responsible), but it's still something to think about.

I still think that we need to nail down a solid black & white of how using can or cant be a sin.

The way I see it is this:

God put this plant on earth for a reason, just as he put everything else here for a reason.

Over indulging, smoking to get high, drinking to get drunk, eating just to eat, anything that is done in excess, can be considered a sin. Jesus drank wine (your kidding right?) No I'm not, and No it wasn't because the water was so bad, otherwise why was he waiting at the well for the woman? Is it a well of wine, I don't think so. ANYWAYS, it was done ceremoniously and with a symbolic purpose. It was done at weddings as part of the celebration, notice at THE wedding celebration they had jugs of water? Yes it was for drinking, not just for looks, he turned that water into wine. OK enough of that point I think I made it clear that, yes, Jesus did drink a mildly alcoholic beverage. I say mildly because I'm not real sure how potent it was, but it was wine after all. He did not drink in excess to get drunk but he did drink it.

So back to the question why did God put this plant here?

The same reason he made grapes to make wine I'm sure. Responsible use. Medicinal use. What a wonderful plant that is all natural and has so many medicinal uses, not to mention the uses of the hemp from everything from paper to clothes. I think to not use, medicinally, would be to shun a gift from God. Yes anything can be done in excess with God's creation, but responsible use is where its at.
As for my grandmother, she has had both her eyes operated on for glaucoma.
I know for a fact she has had one of her cornea's replaced with a donor cornea and I think the other one has been replaced with an artificial cornea. She was never prescribed marijuana since it is illegal, and I doubt she would have smoked it if she had because of the stigmata that is associated with it. Why the stigmata? I would have to say ignorance. So if they are able to take the plant and make it into a usable non-smoke related treatable drug then Im all for it.
As for making a natural plant illegal I'm still against that. There are a lot of other plants that can produce alter states of consciousness that are not illegal.

 

[Thaddius]

I imagine that God's intent was not for people to roll it up in rice paper and smoke it. Or a metal/glass pipe or whatever either.

I am very experienced at this subject and know a lot about it first hand. While marijuana may not be physically addictive like narcotics or alcohol is, it does destroy your mind. I wish that many of you could meet my father. He has smoked it his whole life, and at 55 years old, he is a paranoid schizophrenic. He lives off of the state of Texas because he cannot function in society as a normal individual. He started me smoking pot when I was 12 years old (my brother was 8) and when I stopped ~4 years ago, it was the hardest thing I had ever had to do in my life. Physically addictive, no...but addictive none-the-less. It has it's medical uses, I'm sure. I live in Oregon and know of 3 people who have "medical" cards who have absolutely nothing wrong with them.

I look at my kids and thank God every day that I made that choice not to do to them what my father did to us. There are times that I wish that I still did, and days I really miss being able to tune out my life, but teaching my kids the right way to live life is much more important to me.

Cory

 

[Arkanjel]

Talk about a timely article......

Court: Dying can be charged for using marijuana

 

[tjguitarz]

LOL -- the banner on the top of the page was Al Gore. That guy cracks me up. BEST. COMEDIAN. EVER.

Anyways about the article, it looks like the MM (medicinal mary-jane) is now has to follow the right to life theory. I have to say that is a good thing.

 

[tjguitarz]

I still think that we need to nail down a solid black & white of how using can or can't be a sin.

***BLACK (sin)***
Well, like you said, gluttony is the big culprit there. I also believe any effort to avoid your problems falls in the line with sin (problems as in emotional and relationship problems).

***WHITE (not a sin)***
The only way I see it not being a sin is when you're dying, using it to cure a tough disease, or muting unfathomable pain.

Does that define it black and white?

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Squeak, Sqweak, Sqeee

I hope I don't wander to far off topic but here is my 2 cents...ok so it's a few dollars more

Even if one limits his substance abuse to privacy (never driving, working drunk or high etc) what happens when the use of these substances cause medical problems? Will we leave these people to die or pay their medical expenses? Even without direct contact these people's addictions cause economic damage (high taxes etc.) which directly result in others being hurt. I'm certain if you smoke enough marijuana you will have health problems but what positive benefit does it provide? A valid point in one of the drinking threads and what Neirai said "Proverbs 31:6-7" applies here. This only applies to relief from physical pain that cannot be healed, not mental though. Which is why I would support a medical use of marijuana in a non-smoking form if it was proven to have a beneficial effect (Certainly smoking your lungs with anything is hazardous to your health so I guess you'd have to vaporize it, but, I don't see people vaporizing nicotine). However, in mental pain drugs and alcohol only hide pain. They don't let a person deal with the cause of the pain itself and if you can never deal with the cause you will never get past it and thus you are addicted whether there is a chemical addiction or not. Really it seems like the world wants you to keep hopping from one false cure to another. Drugs don't fill the void, try alcohol, try sex , try food...etc. Of course we all know the only thing that will...

Now at what point should the government intervene though? You can't give everyone access to everything, I don't think the average guy should have access to radioactive materials (ah man and I had this great idea for clean fusion. I had the Gerbil wheel all set up ) . On the opposite end obesity is causing a lot of health care problems should they be regulating fast food? Unfortunately they are, the problem has come that far. What then is the root of the problem? It's people are addressing only the effect of these abuses and not the cause. There is no personal responsibly being instilled in people and until people have that you can't have these substances because they will abuse them. When you say something is wrong or sinful and are against popular opinion you are a bigot or infringing on ones rights (how is just saying something is wrong infringing on anyone's rights anyway???) . People will say "you can do anything you dream of" but not "don't enter into temptation" from which the potential user, encouraged to believe in himself not God, says "I can use substances without getting addicted". If you beat the odds and don't get addicted great, but, why do you need drugs anyway? Whether it's marijuana or another drug it gives you a purposeless pleasure with no accomplishment and no change to your status for the better. At least if you beat a video game or overcome a challenge you have done something, you have a reason to be happy and without the short term memory loss you may actually remember it.

ANYTHING can become a sin when used at the wrong time and place. Unfortunately if people don't get more personal responsibility that's the way things will go. If we outlaw all things we end up in a big brother society, if we allow all things we end up in a society that destroys itself by it's lack of personal responsibility. Good government is about balancing the personal liberties of people with the safety and well being of those people. Since we will never be perfect (on Earth) government cannot allow all things and since the government is made up of us it will never be perfect so it cannot outlaw all things. No society is truly "free" as long as sin exists. The point at which you start outlawing things should be based on the personal responsibility shown by it's people. It's like giving some responsibility to your children you give a little and if they prove the can handle it you give them more, if not you take it away. In the case of marijuana people haven't shown responsibility with similar things like smoking so why would you give them another responsibility?

THE SOLUTION It's not to address just the effect but the cause of these problems. That should come not from the government but from Christians, because, nothing, drug use, etc. would matter if there is no hereafter. Furthermore, I've always found it hypocritical when "say no to etc. campaigns" say not to succumb to peer pressure then use peer pressure (it's not cool etc.) to get you to avoid substance abuse.

Some churches nowadays will not hold anyone responsible for their actions for fear of driving them away, but, this is what we should be doing, with love of course. I know it is difficult to phrase a correction (as we do not want to be perceived as thinking we are better). Why are Christians so scared of saying something is wrong and you are going to hurt yourself with it when that is the central message of Christianity anyway (i.e.. you're a sinner (wrong) and you are going to hell (hurt yourself) without Jesus, of course I'd phrase it different in practice).

MY BOTTOM LINE I am for a medically dispensed and monitored marijuana in a non-smoking form IF it is proven to have a application there. Given that it is much, much harder to take something away from people than give it to them I don't think we should legalize it for medical use until we have some hard evidence that marijuana does have a medical application (which cannot be better filled by another legal substance). However, there is a time and a place for everything under God and that marijuana would have a use makes sense. I am not for open distribution of it though.

Saw this old film on hemp's non-medical uses a while back thought it was applicable here. (note the sound is out of sync in the film and this site does have some objectable material elsewhere) http://www.archive.org/details/Hemp_for_victory_1942

On a side note much is said about the failure of prohibition, but, look at the trade we made by repealing it, less organized crime vs. more alcohol related crime. Not just drunk driving but virtually any other crime can be committed because a person is drunk, domestic violence, murder, theft etc... Why are people so much more willing to except a large slow death and destruction toll to a smaller more shocking one? Last year (ALONE), nearly 16,000~ people were killed as a result of drunk driving. And over 1 million people were injured AND this is only from drunk driving. I just don't believe that's a fair trade for the freedom to drink.

Ok I got a bit off topic but everything is connected so it's hard to address one issue without addressing another. It is nice to see everyone discussing the issue in such a polite manner though

 

[Safora]

Also, if the government or some huge pharmaceutical company came out with some sort of "pot pill" that gave patients the munchies, or relieved pain without causing the high, nobody would care about it anymore, and they would go with more traditional methods

.


They do have a pill. It is called Marinol.
[URL="http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinol