Misguided questions about stuff including...

[-Drelin]

I've been (and am being) raised a Christian, but as I start to think more and more, I encounter problems (real or imagined) with Christianity. I want to be a Christian - I try to believe. I'm just having a little difficulty...

No doubt my questions are the result of a poor understanding of scripture - or if they pass that qualifier, they've probably already been discussed before. Heh.

So if you feel so inclined - answer, or forward me to other threads / websites / books, whatever. Don't tell me to ask God. Anyone who has seen the film A Beautiful Mind will understand my position in that regard. Having been told what to expect if / when God 'speaks' to me, I end up being unable to distinguish between a creation of my active mind, based on my expected parameters, and some kind of divine conviction, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Anyway, enough small talk, he's my disorganized list of rambling questions.


- Why do people go to hell?
- Non Christians are sinful. They have not been cleansed. Therefore, they can not exist with God. Sure - fine, they can't be with God. Why do they have to go to hell? If god can create hell for Satan and his angels, then why can't he create another place for people? Is God:

(a) Cheap
(b) Not all powerfull
(b) Sadistic, or,
Am I missing something?

- Why can't people in hell repent and go to heaven? Why is it too late?

- God is a god of justice. Is it just that someone should be con####ed to an eternitiy of anguish just because the made a bad choice and died young?

- Why did God give us free will if he was going to:
- destroy us until we turned out the way he wanted (violate it)?
- appear to some people?

- Is god appearing to men in plain and frank terms a violation of free will?
If it is a violation of free will:
- why does he appear to some people though out the scriptures?

If it is not:
- Why doesn't god appear to everyone and explain things frankly and simply:
Why can't he do this and allow everyone to make an educated decision instead of making us take a stab in the dark and hope we didn't pick the dud choice and end up in hell?

I'll skip destiny (derived from God's omniscience) vs free will because:

(a) It confused the hell out of me. My mortal mind just goes around in circles, ala: The statement the the right is correct..... The statement to the left in incorrect
(b) The assumption that free will is an illusion would summon a list of questions twice as long.

If you do choose to answer some questions, please do that. As interesting as your life story since you found God may be, I'm not asking for it. Nor am I asking for you to tell me God = love and quote a cute yet irrelevent Bible verse. Sorry, I may sound a little harsh, I guess I'm confusing everyone with people I've asked IRL so far. Hope I don't scare you all off...

I'll post more if / when they come to me - as I feel as if I'm missing one or two topics.

 

[onejesusjunkie]

I guess it's good that I get to post first...get the bad answers outta the way, lol...but all jokes aside, i'mma try my best to answer your questions, and unfortunately, there may be some bible quotes involved...but here's my stab at it.

okay, the first three questions seem to be linked (at least in my mind), so i'll take them all together, although maybe not in order. people go to hell b/c God is holy, which means He has nothing to do with sin at all. but at the same time, He still loves us and doesn't wanna just blast us all with fire from heaven (or hell for that matter), so He made a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus. Jesus came down here to earth in the flesh and lived a perfect life (he didn't sin), He paid the price for our sins. He had to do that because everybody else has sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3). God isn't cheap. He made a place for people. It's called Heaven. i can't tell you why ppl can't repent and get outta hell without going in circles for a few paragraphs, though.

okay, i'm not going far into that whole free-will thing because i think there's a thread on that somewhere (help others??) but do we not have the free will to believe or not to believe? the reason God only appeared to certain people and not to others is because even if He did appear to the others, they wouldn't believe. Just like Jesus when the Pharisees asked Him for signs upon signs upon signs when Jesus was performing miracles left and right. Jesus taught in parables. He took something about God and made a lil story about it. the Bible says He did that so that the folks who heard Him but didn't believe in Him just wouldn't get it.

anyway, i think i got most of those...hope they're a help to ya, man!

 

[Saxamaphone]

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
Anyway, enough small talk, he's my disorganized list of rambling questions.

- Why do people go to hell?

There is no place for sin in heavan.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- Non Christians are sinful.

Christians are sinful too. Accepting Jesus as your savior does not all of a sudden exempt you from your sinful nature. Sinful thoughts creep into your mind and sinful actions still happen. This difference is that non-Christians do not beleive that Jesus has reconciled us with God. Our sinful bodies will die, its just a matter of what will happen with your spirit.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
They have not been cleansed.

My understanding of Gods grace is all have been cleansed. Not just Christians. Again, non-Christians do not beleive that Jesus died for their sins and to reconcile them back to God.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
Therefore, they can not exist with God. Sure - fine, they can't be with God. Why do they have to go to hell? If god can create hell for Satan and his angels, then why can't he create another place for people? Is God:

(a) Cheap
(b) Not all powerfull
(b) Sadistic, or,
Am I missing something?

This is a harsh reality. And there is no use in sugar coating it. Hell is real and it is reserved for those who want no part of God. Their seperation, as sad, horrible and horrifying as it is, is permanent. And after the final judgement, Hell and its inhabitants will be destroyed, never to be remembered.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- Why can't people in hell repent and go to heaven? Why is it too late?

Jesus died once, for all, past, present and future. He descended into [hell] and preached to the spirits held in prison from former times. The people who were seperated from God before Christ Jesus death had to have a chance to accept Jesus as their only salvation. Today we have the decision to make while here on Earth, we don't need to be in hades, hell, shoel or whatever you wish to call it. In the future, Jesus will return and rule as Lord on Earth for 1,000 years. During which generations will be born knowing nothing but Jesus as Lord. The bible says that the Devil will be freed after the 1000 year reign to tempt the world and to make war against Jesus. This will become the choice for the future generations, or preservation of free will if you must. Everybody gets the same one chance to accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- God is a god of justice. Is it just that someone should be con####ed to an eternitiy of anguish just because the made a bad choice and died young?

Choosing against God is not a "bad" choice. Saying that is a "bad" choice trivializes God, his jusice and eternity. If you allow yourself to be conned out of your salvation, you have a real problem, not just a bad choice. The scripture instructs us to gaurd against those who would deceive us and try to say that we are not saved or that their are other ways to God other than through Jesus.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- Why did God give us free will if he was going to:
- destroy us until we turned out the way he wanted (violate it)?

I don't know where you got this observation. He does not destroy us until we turn out the way he wanted. He gives us one chance to accept Jesus as our salvation. According to scripture, he even gives as a chance to goto his throne (if we don't accept Jesus) to present our case based on the deeds we have done. None will be found worthy by their deeds though. Which is why Jesus was our sacrifice.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- appear to some people?

I may be wrong, but, I don't think God has not shown himself to anybody since Moses. For the most part, it has always been via his messanger angels.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
- Is god appearing to men in plain and frank terms a violation of free will?

No, it certainly did not stop Adam from choosing to eat the fruit of the tree.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
If it is a violation of free will:
- why does he appear to some people though out the scriptures?

If it is not:
- Why doesn't god appear to everyone and explain things frankly and simply:
Why can't he do this and allow everyone to make an educated decision instead of making us take a stab in the dark and hope we didn't pick the dud choice and end up in hell?

Simply put, if you don't know God through faith, then what makes anybody think they will know God if he was to appear to them. You mentioned that you are unsure of what inside your head is from you "Having been told what to expect if / when God 'speaks' to me, I end up being unable to distinguish between a creation of my active mind, based on my expected parameters, and some kind of divine conviction, whatever that's supposed to mean." What will make it any different if God was to show up in front you to explain it to you frankly and simply. Actually, there will be difference. If God was to show up in front you right now, you will have NO CHOICE but to beleive that God is God. Now, where is your freewill choice in that.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
I'll skip destiny (derived from God's omniscience) vs free will because:

(a) It confused the hell out of me. My mortal mind just goes around in circles, ala: The statement the the right is correct..... The statement to the left in incorrect
(b) The assumption that free will is an illusion would summon a list of questions twice as long.

We have a law called gravity. This law is so powerful in fact, that no matter where you go in this universe, you will be affected by it. The law is basically states that two bodies of mass will be affected by each other and drawn to each other unless a body of larger mass acts upon the envirorment. We have tides because the moon pulls apart of the Earth towards it. We know that if we throw an anvil up, it will fall to the ground. We throw a feather up, it too will fall to the ground. Yet we see tons of steel floating in the sky and birds in the sky, does gravity not affect them?

To some extent, we can call gravity Gods will and flight as our will. Eventually, an airplane will land. It is upto the pilot to choose if they will land the plane (give into gravity, or Gods will) or continue to fight gravity and crash the plane. Giving into Gods will does not take away your ability to fly, it allows you to fly again, over and over, day after day. But not giving into Gods will always ends in tragedy.

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,8:56)]
If you do choose to answer some questions, please do that. As interesting as your life story since you found God may be, I'm not asking for it. Nor am I asking for you to tell me God = love and quote a cute yet irrelevent Bible verse. Sorry, I may sound a little harsh, I guess I'm confusing everyone with people I've asked IRL so far. Hope I don't scare you all off...

I'll post more if / when they come to me - as I feel as if I'm missing one or two topics.

I hope I didn't give you a life story.

 

[Mr_Eon]

There has to be a better answer than "Don't you worry your silly head about it!"...

Eon

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Hmm. First, one question (not to you) why is the word #### always censored or Demn as in Con####ed? COndemned? ####ED TO HELL! What's so bad?
Okay, now to you:
Hell is a place of torment, originally created for Satan and the fallen. Humans weren't meant to go there, but since we sinned and became equal with the fallen in the fact of sin, there's room for more (not to be mean, but it's true).

The thing is, many non-Christians hear the Word and have a choice to make: accept it or not. Myself, I try a few times with some devout atheists, and sometimes I worry if I quit and they get squished by a comet and go to hell it was all my fault.
God is sad at the fact that he must condemn many of us. Maybe God has a mad side to him, but not in a sense sadistic. Angry, yes, jealous, yes. Sadistic? No.

Hell and heaven are eternities. There's no escape from them, even if people believe that the drugged-up Dante was right in his vision of a sojourn through Hell, Puragatory and into Heaven. There's no escape from hell or heaven, not that anyone would want to escape from Heaven, I don't think. You had all your life to accept God as God, and the New Testament states that one can see God in nature, and can know there is a God without any guidance. So if Tom Hanks had been born on that stupid island and died without seeing a God, then he had about sixty-seventy years to do it. I myself don't know if I could accept the idea that cosmic dust condensed on a cloud of gas and formed the universe....too far out. So I accept the idea of a wiser than I God that created it all. Of course, by looking at the clouds, you can't know that God was three in one, that God came down in flesh, lived among us and died for us. But you could know that God existed.

God is a God of justice. To not choose to accept God is something, I think, that God would know what is in your heart. If you have no intention of ever accepting God and you die, then, well, uh, you kinda burn forever. Not much else you can do to get out of that. This could be related to question 2.

Interesting question. Free will is the decision making choice that affects your life. I brought this up in youth two days ago and a day before that at home. Do you need to believe in God to succeed in worldly terms? No. Do you need God to succeed in life? Yes. Your life matters zero if you die and go to hell. Whoopee! If you'll notice, Hugh Hefner has the life of all lives, I think, in worldy views. He's rich, lives in a mansion, is surrounded by a zillion hotties. He has all he wants (except probably God, or maybe he's one of those "celebrity Christians"). All his porno industries will matter zero in the afterlife. Now has God plagued him with locusts? No. He has succeeded in the world's eyes. So free will is the choice to obey or disobey God. He is displeased when we don't obey him, but the houses don't collapse on our children when we do. God's appearing to people, in my eyes, has not altered the faith of many, nor altered the choices of non-Christians. So far, they still need to see the sun go black and the Pacific turn red in order to believe in a God. Jesus said it himself in John 4:48 "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe." He was talking to those Jews, but from what I've gleaned from many, a miracle will make them believe. God's appeared to many, and if he doesn't now, the faith of many remains unchanged. If he did appear, I'm sure we would all jubilate a lot because God came, but I think the next time he actually appears will be with fire on Armageddon Day.

God's appearing to some doesn't alter free will. Some saw God in their face and still didn't believe. Jesus Christ said that to the lawman. "If you don't believe Moses, how will you believe Me?" or something like that.
God wrote on the wall of Babylon in front of the King, and he still didn't believe. He died that night. Wow. ANd he saw God's finger (or a supernatural thing that wrote on the wall). The stupid Israelites had God's pillar of fire leading them by night and the cloud at day. WHen Moses went away for a bit, they whined amongst themselves and cried for a god that was there, and they got a freaking COW STATUE!
No. God may slap you in the face and you still wouldn't acknowledge him. IT doesn't alter the faith of many, though it may of some. It doesn't mean he's taking away free will for appearing to you. You still have the choice to believe, as you see from my examples (I hope).

I stated a few verses, but they're not cute things, like the Sunday School motto: I Heart Jesus. Just the Bible.
I understand how confusing the free will v. predestination is, but I'll say: I think we're predestined, and have a free will to live out in that predestiny. I mean, God knows everything right? So he knows and has decided (?) who goes to hell and heaven. We have the chocie to make as to where we go, yet God knows what we shall choose, so it kinda makes it seem like we're predestined.
Sorry. I hoped I helped.

 

[-Drelin]

Thanks everyone for your posts. I've had time to put together a quick reply to Saxamaphone and onejesusjunkie. I just hit refresh and noticed Ultima Avatar's post. I'm going out now, but I will hopefully have time to read and reply later today.

I hope I don't seem to argumentative on in writting. That's not my intention.

onejesusjunkie

Quote[/b] ]and unfortunately, there may be some bible quotes involved

Heh, I don't mind the Bible. It's people mumbling about various religious sounding things and then quoting some irrelevant verse that annoys me.

I understand what Jesus did and everything. Bailing out humans on several different levels is really nice, but I still don't understand why those who choose to have nothing to do with God end up in hell. Why can't they have just that? Nothing to do with God... Why is it heaven or hell?

I'm not suggesting God would appear as an old beggar or something. He's God... Of course people are going to be somewhat suspect of some guy claiming to be the Almighty. By me saying 'simply and frankly' I mean that there should be no doubt that what God (or whatever messenger) is saying is the truth. That's not to say they have no choice. They can believe it or not.

Stupid metaphor time!

Say for example I was locked in a cellar and had never been outdoors (shut up, shut up) ... and one day I was told I had to decide what colour the sky was, and If I stuffed up, terrible things would happen to me. I have two friends. One says the sky is blue, the other maintains it it green. Both opinions are completely believable. Both opinions have a wealth of usless information to back itself up. Why can't I take a look out the cellar door before I decide?

Quote[/b] ]He did that so that the folks who heard Him but didn't believe in Him just wouldn't get it.

So He's only converting people who are already converted? He's alienating those who actually are there to learn something? That doesn't square with the metaphors I recall from the Bible that go along the lines of "Do you fetch a doctor to tend to a man who is in good health? No." Sorry, I don't recall verses.

Saxamaphone

I cut to the chase a bit before explaining what I knew. For example, when I said "Non Christians are sinful" I meant they have accepted salvation through Jesus, and understand that God considers them free of sin. At least that's my understanding of it, as well as I can articulate it in a few words.

You put things in very black and white terms. I think it is quite probable that a large number, if not the majority of people in hell aren't there because they directly wanted no part of God.

My options stand, and from what I tell you haven't added to them:

(a) Cheap - God can't be bothered making another place for those who don't go to heaven.
(b) Not all power full - For some reason, people who don't go to heaven *must* go to hell. There's no way around it.
© Sadistic - God could change things for the better, but he won't because he wants his creatures to suffer.

It would appear you have subscribed to option 'c'.

Quote[/b] ]And after the final judgement, Hell and its inhabitants will be destroyed, never to be remembered.

Really? Do you have a verse? I haven't heard of this before. Or do you mean destroyed and forgotten to people in Heaven?

Quote[/b] ]Everybody gets the same one chance to accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

That would be my point. I'm asking why...

Quote[/b] ]Choosing against God is not a "bad" choice.  Saying that is a "bad" choice trivializes God, his jusice and eternity.  If you allow yourself to be conned out of your salvation, you have a real problem, not just a bad choice.  The scripture instructs us to gaurd against those who would deceive us and try to say that we are not saved or that their are other ways to God other than through Jesus.

What about pre-Luther catholics. They were on good terms with God as far as they could tell. In goes the coin, out comes the indulgence, and pop, they're saved. I dont' think they will be in heaven.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know where you got this observation.  He does not destroy us until we turn out the way he wanted.

He never destroyed us completely (I'm unable to fathom why...) but I'm referring to instances like Noah, Soddom & Gomorah (sp?) and the possibly numerous undocumented occasions.

Quote[/b] ]If God was to show up in front you right now, you will have NO CHOICE but to belive that God is God.  Now, where is your freewill choice in that.

I thought you just said that:

Quote[/b] ]No, it certainly did not stop Adam from choosing to eat the fruit of the tree.

So it compromises my free will but not Adam's? If God appeared, of course I'd have no choice but to believe God is God. That is fair. But like Adam, this solid fact needn't influence my free will. I could still choose to disobey him.

 

[Saxamaphone]

You: So it compromises my free will but not Adam's? If God appeared, of course I'd have no choice but to believe God is God. That is fair. But like Adam, this solid fact needn't influence my free will. I could still choose to disobey him.

Me: Just because you accept God as God doesn't mean you accept Jesus as your savior. Important difference. This of course gets into the whole trinity thing. Look at the Jews...they beleive that God is God. They just kind of got "hung up" with this Jesus thing.

You:
(a) Cheap - God can't be bothered making another place for those who don't go to heaven.
(b) Not all power full - For some reason, people who don't go to heaven *must* go to hell. There's no way around it.
© Sadistic - God could change things for the better, but he won't because he wants his creatures to suffer.

It would appear you have subscribed to option 'c'.

Me: Interesting how you added, he wants his creatures to suffer to option c. That being said:

a: He did create another place for people who don't beleive. Its called hell. If the place frightens you, then be sure you aren't heading there. And if you are worried about your friends going to hell, be sure they aren't either. There is no need to sugar coat this. First of all, the only way to go there is to make a decision against God. You decide whether or not you go to hell, not God.

b: Typical Political correctness corruption found in so many churches. Somehow consequences for bad or wrong decisions must be toned down, don't want to scare anybody. Well, it should scare you. You can either be a good little boy (or girl) and reap the rewards your faith in God deserves, or you can be a bad little boy (or girl) and reap the punishments your lake of faith in the Lord deserves. <I am being sarcastic and simplistic> But in a sense, that is how simple it is.

c: Show me one bible verse that actually backs up your position with this one. No where does it say that God wants to see his people suffer, for the sake of suffering.

Now here is a fourth, for you to ponder:

4: God is love. He loves us so much, that God could not bear the mere thought that we would be seperated from us. He saw that man could not live up to a simple law in the beginning: Don't eat from the tree of knowledge. He saw that couldn't keep 10 commandments. God saw we couldn't keep laws that were so logic and easy to follow. Come on now, touch something unclean, wash your hands. Most of those laws are piece of cake. He was so destressed, that he sent his son to die for us, once, for everybody, for ever. He did the work because we couldn't. We couldn't meet him half way. We said follow my law and I will honour you. We couldn't follow the law, we couldn't keep our half of the bargain, so he did it for us. And if we do not accept what he has done for us, then what more sacrifice is their left? None!!! If God has done all the work for you and it is still not good enough for you, which is basically saying to God, you aren't good enough for me, then please tell me, where do you belong? You have just said that you can do better then God, and this is exactly what Lucifer did when he fell, he told God, he could do better than God. Guess what, you say hell for the fallen angels and something different for man, yet their sin is the same? Where is the difference, why should man be treated differently?


You: Really? Do you have a verse? I haven't heard of this before. Or do you mean destroyed and forgotten to people in Heaven?

Me: I recall reading this, I can't recall where. When I find the reference, I'll be sure to forward it too you immediately.

You:What about pre-Luther catholics. They were on good terms with God as far as they could tell. In goes the coin, out comes the indulgence, and pop, they're saved. I dont' think they will be in heaven.

Me: I really have no idea. There maybe some, and some may not be. I can not judge their heart, and this would not be a responsibility I would wish to confer upon myself.

You:He never destroyed us completely (I'm unable to fathom why...) but I'm referring to instances like Noah, Soddom & Gomorah (sp?) and the possibly numerous undocumented occasions.

Me: Its a good thing he never destroyed mankind completely. Go look in the mirror. That reflection would not exist. Maybe your life hasn't been all you thought it should be. You may even look in the mirror sometimes and wish the reflection wasn't there. Don't be fooled into thinking you are the only one who has. On the other hand, maybe life has been grand for you. I wouldn't be suprised with that either, you did mention you are being raised in a Christian home, and Gods blessings on your parents (?) will most definatly spill onto you.

You:Say for example I was locked in a cellar and had never been outdoors (shut up, shut up) ... and one day I was told I had to decide what colour the sky was, and If I stuffed up, terrible things would happen to me. I have two friends. One says the sky is blue, the other maintains it it green. Both opinions are completely believable. Both opinions have a wealth of usless information to back itself up. Why can't I take a look out the cellar door before I decide?

Me: This was not directed to me but, I can't help but answer this. There is a door for you to look out. It is a living testiment to the Gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ. It is a common thread amongst all beleivers. It isn't the bible. Its their lives. But unfortunetly, you closed that door: "As interesting as your life story since you found God may be, I'm not asking for it." It is written that our lives are a testiment to Jesus Christ, we are to be a reflection of our Lord. Granted, this forum is likely not the best place to share testimonies, those are ussually best shared in a more personal setting.

As you mentioned, I do things in black and white. And it is harsh. Alas, I don't apoligize for that.

 

[-Drelin]

Thanks for the continued interest, guys.

Ultima Avatar

Quote[/b] ]Hell is a place of torment, originally created for Satan and the fallen.

Why is it a place of torment? If God made it, and God didn’t want his creatures to be in torment, then why make it as such?

Quote[/b] ]Humans weren't meant to go there, but since we sinned and became equal with the fallen in the fact of sin, there's room for more (not to be mean, but it's true).

To technically we’re as bad as Satan and whatnot? I guess, if sin is just one big generic. Think about yourself though. Do you really think you’re as worthy of punishment as Satan, or at least the *same* punishment.

Quote[/b] ]There's no escape from hell or heaven, not that anyone would want to escape from Heaven, I don't think.

Interesting… you’re effectively saying that once (if?) we get to heaven our free-will is taken away?

Quote[/b] ]So if Tom Hanks had been born on that stupid island and died without seeing a God, then he had about sixty-seventy years to do it.

At best he would have developed, as he did, a belief system centring in his volleyball, or perhaps a religion based on the elements of wind, rain, fire, etc. Close enough? Do members of eastern religions go to heaven? Do members of any religion go to heaven? Haven’t *they* searched for God and come as close as they could to him without him explicitly spelling things out for them as he did with the Jews.

God's appearing to some doesn't alter free will. Some saw God in their face and still didn't believe. Jesus Christ said that to the lawman. "If you don't believe Moses, how will you believe Me?" or something like that.
God wrote on the wall of Babylon in front of the King, and he still didn't believe. He died that night. Wow. And he saw God's finger (or a supernatural thing that wrote on the wall). The stupid Israelites had God's pillar of fire leading them by night and the cloud at day. WHen Moses went away for a bit, they whined amongst themselves and cried for a god that was there, and they got a freaking COW STATUE!

Quote[/b] ]No. God may slap you in the face and you still wouldn't acknowledge him. IT doesn't alter the faith of many, though it may of some. It doesn't mean he's taking away free will for appearing to you. You still have the choice to believe, as you see from my examples

When I ask why God doesn’t appear to everyone, I assume he would let people know he meant business. He’s all powerful, it can’t be that hard to convince people he *is* God.

Quote[/b] ]We have the chocie to make as to where we go, yet God knows what we shall choose, so it kinda makes it seem like we're predestined.

Yup, that’s my take on the matter.

Saxamaphone

Quote[/b] ]Just because you accept God as God doesn't mean you accept Jesus as your savoir.  Important difference.

I didn't suggest they were the same. Me, personally, if I could be sure God existed I'd follow him - to do otherwise would be self destructive and rather stupid. As it is, I'm leaning towards believing anyway, even if I can never shake the doubt from my mind. Eh, in the end, if I'm wrong and God never existed, no big deal, I lived my life by similar morals as I would have ordinarily and at worst wasted a bit of time and money on the Church. If I was wrong and God did exist, well, it's not exactly 'no big deal'. Either way, the belief an all powerful being is on your side has got to have its stress reducing merits - true or not, heh.

Quote[/b] ]a:  He did create another place for people who don't believe.  It’s called hell.  If the place frightens you, then be sure you aren't heading there.  And if you are worried about your friends going to hell, be sure they aren't either.  There is no need to sugar coat this.  First of all, the only way to go there is to make a decision against God.  You decide whether or not you go to hell, not God.

Um, okay... God created hell, right? God loves his creation, whether it's reciprocated or not, yes? God wouldn't want to see his loved ones suffer, right? Otherwise he'd be       ic, by definition. So, why did God make hell such a       place as it is described in the Bible. 'Course, it's possible that hell as we know it is a product of the corrupt Church so as to scare people into giving it money. But I think I can imagine how most people here would describe such a theory, and I'd be inclined to agree with them.

Quote[/b] ]c:  Show me one bible verse that actually backs up your position with this one.  No where does it say that God wants to see his people suffer, for the sake of suffering.

I'm not much of an expert when it comes to the Bible. I don't fancy going through the entire Bible looking for a verse I could twist to fit my cause. That's been done enough by others. But see me above paragraph to see where I'm coming from with my argument.

Quote[/b] ]None!!!  If God has done all the work for you and it is still not good enough for you, which is basically saying to God, you aren't good enough for me, then please tell me, where do you belong?

Away from God, evidently. In hell? I don't know. Why would God punish us when he doesn't want to and doesn't have to?

Quote[/b] ]You have just said that you can do better then God

No I'm not, unless you somehow take disbelief (or any number or other things) in God though ignorance (or other things) to mean a belief that one is superior to God.

Quote[/b] ]Guess what, you say hell for the fallen angels and something different for man, yet their sin is the same?  Where is the difference, why should man be treated differently?

Take some random person off the street. He never understood or made his mind up about religion and died young. His sin is the same as Satan's? In any case, your question is based on the assumption all disbelief (or other) in God is formed by the same thing as Satan's rebellion.

Quote[/b] ]Its a good thing he never destroyed mankind completely.  Go look in the mirror.  That reflection would not exist.  Maybe your life hasn't been all you thought it should be.  You may even look in the mirror sometimes and wish the reflection wasn't there.  Don't be fooled into thinking you are the only one who has.  On the other hand, maybe life has been grand for you.  I wouldn't be surprised with that either, you did mention you are being raised in a Christian home, and Gods blessings on your parents (?) will most definatly spill onto you.

God not destroying us is something I'm unable to fathom, but also something I'm eternally grateful for, of course. I'm just saying that if I was God I'd not be able to cope with the fact a majority of my creation was suffering in eternal agony so that a minority might worship my kindness and compassion. But luckily enough for all of us, I'm not God.

Quote[/b] ]This was not directed to me but, I can't help but answer this.  There is a door for you to look out.  It is a living testament to the Gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ.  It is a common thread amongst all believers.  It isn't the bible.  Its their lives.

Testimonies, The Bible, Christian Science, Christian friends, etc. They go under the 'friend who believes the sky to be blue.' You know? I guess not.

Quote[/b] ]But unfortunetly, you closed that door:  "As interesting as your life story since you found God may be, I'm not asking for it."  It is written that our lives are a testiment to Jesus Christ, we are to be a reflection of our Lord.

Not so hasty. You seem to have 'gotten the wrong end of the stick'. I said that because I've asked of people direct questions such as some I've listed here, and a good lot of them have dodged them, told me things I already know and finished off with a testimonial. If I explain they didn't answer the question they take a more defensive stance and tell me God works in mysterious ways and it's not my place to know such things. Sorry, if I just took things completely on faith I'd be a lot poorer and my religion would vary weekly.

People here seem more sensible, thankfully.

 

[CCGR]

I would recommend the book Case for Faith. It tackles many good questions from theology pHd's. Questions like

1) If there's a loving God, why does this pain-wracked world groan under so much suffering and evil?
2) If the miracles of God contradict science, then how can any rational person believe that they're true?
3) If God is morally pure, how can he sanction the slaughter of innocent children as the Old Testament says he did?
4) If God cares about the people he created, how could he consign so many of them to an eternity of torture in hell just because they didn't believe the right things about him?
5) If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what about the millions of people who have never heard of him?
6) If God really created the universe, why does the evidence of science compel so many to conclude that the unguided process of evolution accounts for life?
7) If God is the ultimate overseer of the church, why has it been rife with hypocrisy and brutality throughout the ages?
8) If I'm still plagued by doubts, then is it still possible to be a Christian?


Let me know if this helps.

 

[Mr_Eon]

For those of us unwilling to purchase the book, how about a discussion on those points?

Eon

 

[Kidan]

oh yeah, the "case for faith" and "the case for Christ" are both great books.

Quote[/b] ]I said that because I've asked of people direct questions such as some I've listed here, and a good lot of them have dodged them, told me things I already know and finished off with a testimonial. If I explain they didn't answer the question they take a more defensive stance and tell me God works in mysterious ways and it's not my place to know such things. Sorry, if I just took things completely on faith I'd be a lot poorer and my religion would vary weekly.

A problem that affects many churches today is that the Christians within those walls do not know what the Bible truly says about some things.  They just listen to what the preacher-of-the-week is saying and they accept it without ever reading up.  There is a incredibly horrid lack of apologetics among the general congregation, as well as among Sunday School teachers and ordained ministers.   And what's worse is that these teachers are openly supporting that "it's not my place to know such things" nonsense by teaching that you shouldn't question the leaders.  

Drelin, I applaude what you are doing, and regret that I haven't had the time to answer your questions, but those two books listed at the top (neither of which are very expensive) should be able to answer some of your questions.  also  the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry's website has tons of interesting facts.


now to start answering questions.

Quote[/b] ]Why do people go to hell?

You understand the reason behind why they are sent to Hell, your actual question seems to be why are they tormented once there.  Our God is a just god.  He has set up a punishment for sin, which is death and misery in the hereafter.  Now for God to not punish sinners is saying God is unjust and worse that God is a lier (both of which are blasphemy). Heaven is eternity with God.  Eternity with life itself.  Hell is eternity without God, or eternity with constant death.  Could God create numerous levels? Yes.  BUT  sin is sin.  All sins are equal in God's eyes.  Whether that sin is a simple white lie or a full blown murder doesn't matter to God, it is still sin and as such the punishment is the same.

Quote[/b] ]Why can't people in hell repent and go to heaven? Why is it too late?

 We are given the days of our lives to repent and live properly.  The question is Why should they?  They had/have the same chances as everyone else. It is too late, the choice has been made.   Take sex, you make a choice to have sex, and the girl ends up pregnant.  It's too late to not have sex now. No matter how much you might want to undo your choice it has been made  and you both must live with the consequences.

Quote[/b] ]Why did God give us free will if he was going to:
- destroy us until we turned out the way he wanted (violate it)?
- appear to some people?

 No matter what God does, whether it be appearances, turning the sky purple, dropping hellfire and brimstone on a city, we still have to make the choice on whether to believe or not to.  Destroying something doesn't violate our free will (see Lot's wife Gen 19 for the story)

Quote[/b] ]Why doesn't god appear to everyone and explain things frankly and simply:
Why can't he do this and allow everyone to make an educated decision instead of making us take a stab in the dark and hope we didn't pick the dud choice and end up in hell?

 He's given us the Bible. Would it help you if the star's themselves rearragned and spelled out your name?  or if (Taking an example from Carl Sagan's Contact) in the number pi, we found a circle.  No matter how many signs and wonders happen, some people would still not believe.

Quote[/b] ]I'll skip destiny (derived from God's omniscience) vs free will because:

It's acutally not that difficult of a concept, because they're both true.  To be truly omniscient God must see ALL possible choices simutaneously, but that doesn't influence the choices we are able to make.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote  
None!!!  If God has done all the work for you and it is still not good enough for you, which is basically saying to God, you aren't good enough for me, then please tell me, where do you belong?


Away from God, evidently. In hell? I don't know. Why would God punish us when he doesn't want to and doesn't have to?

God is omnipresent, so to put those who deserve to be away from Him, he created a place just for that, Hell.

Quote[/b] ]Take some random person off the street. He never understood or made his mind up about religion and died young. His sin is the same as Satan's? In any case, your question is based on the assumption all disbelief (or other) in God is formed by the same thing as Satan's rebellion.

 Not understanding or hearing is different than not making up the mind (which is the choice to not choose right now)  IF  we don't understand or hear then we are judge by the Law.

-corrected the title to Christ -CCGR

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 09 2003,9:56)]

- Why do people go to hell?
Dreslin, you say that "non-christians are sinful". However, ALL humans are sinful. "There is none rightous, no not one." All humans are inherintly sinful, from the originial sin of Adam and Eve and from the sins we commit each day with our hearts, toungues, and minds. God is completely good in every way - this is crucial to understanding everything, so make sure you jot that down somewhere =D Now, that means that God is completely just. Therefore, human beings MUST be punished for their terrible sins against the Lord

- Why can't people in hell repent and go to heaven? Why is it too late?
It is too late because people have had all their lives to repent. Now, before going into further detail, let me just say that most theolians agree that children, up to an uncertain age of accountability, go to Heaven if they die (because they are not yet accountable). That said, Paul tells us that everyone who IS accountable is convicted of God's existence through nature. (I'm sorry for all these scripture quotes without telling you where to find them...I don't have my Bible down here right now). God's creation should be enough for anybody to see the magnificence of God. Heck, one must look no further than his own "fearfully and wonderfully made" body, so complex and yet so efficient, to see that there must be a Creator.

- God is a god of justice. Is it just that someone should be con####ed to an eternitiy of anguish just because the made a bad choice and died young?
I believe this is covered above. The example which you give is shakey, but A)if they were quite young, they were not accountable, and B)they, being human, most definitly made MANY "bad choice"s. Humans, Christian and non-Christian, sin every day, my freind. You don't simply sin once and get condemned. Though that's techinically all you need, your track record is overflowing, your permanent record marked with red ink all over...that is, unless you trust in Jesus Christ, whom God has sent to erase that track record, to cleanse us of our sins, and to give us grace through him

- Why did God give us free will if he was going to:
- destroy us until we turned out the way he wanted (violate it)?
- appear to some people?
The wording of this question confuses me, so I'd like to invite you to look at the post I started, on this same forum (Religious Discussion) entitled Free Will v. Determinism. Many theologians disagree as to whether we actually have free will. And besides that, remember that we, humans, and everything we do, is to be for the glory of God. EVERYTHING is to be to God's glory, through one way or another. That is why he does things. Also remember that while God's will and understanding is perfect, yours is not, as it is hmanly, worldly, and limited by time and imprefection

- Is god appearing to men in plain and frank terms a violation of free will?
If it is a violation of free will:
- why does he appear to some people though out the scriptures?

If it is not:
- Why doesn't god appear to everyone and explain things frankly and simply:
Why can't he do this and allow everyone to make an educated decision instead of making us take a stab in the dark and hope we didn't pick the dud choice and end up in hell?

This is answered above, as I said that we are all convicted, "plain and frank" of God's existence through not only nature which surrounds us but also by our own bodies with which we now read and type this discussion! Now, assuming that we have something of a free will, tell me this. If you were in mad love with this girl, and you had the power to either let her decide whether or not she loved you too, OR MAKE her love you forever, which would you choose? Think about this carefully - how rewarding can the latter "love" be? If she, without any spells or charms or potions, decides that she loves you, isn't that so much more rewarding?

Nor am I asking for you to tell me God = love and quote a cute yet irrelevent Bible verse.
Upon ending this post, i've only now read this. However, you must understand, that God IS love, and I cannot get away without telling you this! No other pleasure of this world remotely relates to the pleasure in which I and my Christian brethren experience through the love of God! I would have to account to God for your soul if I did not tell you how loving and awesome He truly is! And how are Bible verses irrelevent? The Bible is God's word. You have many books in your library, I'm sure, but only one authored by God. All other books are irrelevent. The key to salvation and hope and ALL the answers you seek, my freind, are in those "cute yet irrelevent Bible verse"s.

If you've any more question, PLEASE, PM me, or IM me at Gecko670, as I'd love to talk to you and discuss this with you! You'll be in my prayers, freind!

 

[timor]

In my first post, I just responded to the very first post of yours, Dreslin, and have now skimmed the other replies.

You keep saying "Why hell? Why not some other place for those who did not accept God?"

This is for 2 reason.

1) To not accept God means to instead accept sin and worldliness. Sin = ####ation

2) I saw it questioned somehwere why God must PUNISH them, too, while they're in hell. While its true that they are punished, I think that the TRUE punishment is a conscious seperation from God. Here on Earth, as evident as God's existence is (through nature and such as I've said), some people just refuse to believe it and look for other ways. Such as Eon

Now, if you've not believed in God all your life, once you get to Hell you'll be like ".......crap....." and be fully aware of God's existence...and that you missed out on being with him, and are now eternally seperated from him. let ME try a bad analogy

~~~~~~~~~~~
It'd be like if you wanted a pizza, and your freinds said "get fried cat as a topping, it's delicious" and your'e like no way man theres no way theres fried cat, if i ask for fried cat ill just get laughed at, i'm sticking to pepperoni"..so then you get your pepperoni, and then once ur all done eating you look at the menu again and you see, right there in big bold, italicized, underlined text, Extra-Crispy Fried Cat - .75 extra. And now you're like, aw man, I coulda been eatin cat but instead I was eating pepperoni, and now I'm full, and I can't eat the kitty even though I want to!
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Author's Note : It's quarter after 12, and due to school, I'm REALLY tired....that analogy was so bad, but due to my weakening perception of reality as my eyelids grow heavy, i thought it ravishingly funny as i typed it...please, PLEASE forgive me

 

[-Drelin]

Thanks for the book recommendations and replies everyone. I composed one big message, but I decided to split it to make it easier to see what applied to what etc.

Kidan

Quote[/b] ]Drelin, I applaude what you are doing, and regret that I haven't had the time to answer your questions, but those two books listed at the top (neither of which are very expensive) should be able to answer some of your questions. also the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry's website has tons of interesting facts.

Thank you for the encouragement, and the link. I haven't yet had time to look around the site properly, but it looks good.

Quote[/b] ]He has set up a punishment for sin, which is death and misery in the hereafter. Now for God to not punish sinners is saying God is unjust and worse that God is a lier (both of which are blasphemy). Heaven is eternity with God. Eternity with life itself. Hell is eternity without God, or eternity with constant death. Could God create numerous levels? Yes. BUT sin is sin. All sins are equal in God's eyes. Whether that sin is a simple white lie or a full blown murder doesn't matter to God, it is still sin and as such the punishment is the same.

Okay, things are starting to make more sense to me. The way you put it, sin seems comparable to some sort of degenerative disease - leprously, or perhaps cancer. It doesn't matter where it is, if it's untreated it's probably going to kill you. And you can either let it or have it healed...

That's straight-forward. But it begs the question of why sin even exists in the first place. Is it a by-product of man's disobedience? If so, then God must have let it come into being. Why? And why did God make the knowledge of good and evil something that would let sin into the world? What was so bad about the knowledge of God and evil? God has it - does that mean God is sinful? No... I suppose that is the same logic Satan used on Eve, so I'll leave it there for now.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone could answer that. I guess you've all got the same resources at your disposal (scriptures), though most of you seem to have a better grasp of them than I.

Quote[/b] ]We are given the days of our lives to repent and live properly. The question is Why should they? They had/have the same chances as everyone else. It is too late, the choice has been made. Take sex, you make a choice to have sex, and the girl ends up pregnant. It's too late to not have sex now. No matter how much you might want to undo your choice it has been made and you both must live with the consequences.

I suppose. How many chances do we need? Assuming people in heaven could rebel and fall to hell, and people in hell could repent and be saved, and some of them rebelled against God (again), someone like me would no doubt question why they can't repent after all that.

Even so, to my mind, it would seem more reasonable if Jesus would (somewhere during the Revelation time-period) would preach to those in hell and give them an option to be saved, similar to when he did that with those who hadn't had that opportunity because they were born before Jesus decended.

Quote[/b] ]Destroying something doesn't violate our free will (see Lot's wife Gen 19 for the story)

Hmm, let's say we were playing a board game. It's my turn, I've only got one dice roll, and I need to roll a six. My first roll, I get a three, but I keep on rolling until I get a six. Fair? Or an alternative example - Does one have true free-will when a gun is pointed at one's head? Is that not what God did in the flood and at S&G? Not fully, I concede, as he wiped out humans bar 8 people in the flood. But what's the point of that? God hasn't removed sin as He would have if he'd also killed Noah and his family and restarted. Or did He figure that it would be just the same to take our choice away?

Quote[/b] ]He's given us the Bible. Would it help you if the star's themselves rearranged and spelled out your name? or if (Taking an example from Carl Sagan's Contact) in the number pi, we found a circle. No matter how many signs and wonders happen, some people would still not believe.

It's true people has a knack for rationalizing away miracles (possibly because they actually have a rational explanation, but I'll maintain my theist point of view). But God, being the all powerful being He is, could 'convince' us of the validity of his claims. I wouldn't feel as if my free will had been compromised, as it would do nothing more than put us on a somewhat equal footing with Adam. On the other hand, it would kind of put a damper on agnostics.

Quote[/b] ]God is omnipresent, so to put those who deserve to be away from Him, he created a place just for that, Hell.

Yes. The question of 'why doesn't God make another place that's not so nasty' is for the purpose of this discussion interchangeable with 'why did God make hell nasty.'

Quote[/b] ]Not understanding or hearing is different than not making up the mind (which is the choice to not choose right now) IF we don't understand or hear then we are judge by the Law.

So my example person is comprable to the secluded tribe in South America mentioned in Vanaze's recent thread? [link]

 

[-Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]You'll be in my prayers, freind!

Thank you, timor. I'm pleasantly suprised by the reception I've been given.

timor

Quote[/b] ]It is too late because people have had all their lives to repent.

If God wants us to be with him then why doesn't he try absolutely everything he can without treading on our freewill choice? "I gave them one chance, I won't give them anthother" seems rather indifferent to me.

Quote[/b] ]God's creation should be enough for anybody to see the magnificence of God. Heck, one must look no further than his own "fearfully and wonderfully made" body, so complex and yet so efficient, to see that there must be a Creator.

In Paul's day? Indubitably - but today, with everything 'explained,' people don't really get the same even chance. Especially with the public education system what it is.

Quote[/b] ]I believe this is covered above. The example which you give is shakey, but A)if they were quite young, they were not accountable, and B)they, being human, most definitly made MANY "bad choice"s. Humans, Christian and non-Christian, sin every day, my freind.

I should have been more specific. By bad choice I mean, choose to never do much about their relationship with God. A lot of people consider themselves Christian because they lead a decent enough life and go to church once or twice a year for weddings, funerals, Christmas Eve and Easter (not that church-going is a pre-requisite for salvation). These people will presumable get quite a shock. I don't see the justice in their suffering.

Quote[/b] ]This is answered above, as I said that we are all convicted, "plain and frank" of God's existence through not only nature which surrounds us but also by our own bodies with which we now read and type this discussion!

If I was living a few centuries ago that would be ample. Sadly, equally likely, probable, and convincing (to my mind) theorems have popped up since then. (unquestionally) God appearing would really clear up some doubt.

Quote[/b] ]Now, assuming that we have something of a free will, tell me this. If you were in mad love with this girl, and you had the power to either let her decide whether or not she loved you too, OR MAKE her love you forever, which would you choose? Think about this carefully - how rewarding can the latter "love" be?

Given its love not infatuation (

) I would of course choose free will. I don't see how this relates, though, as I already understand why God gave free will, and my statement connected to it assumes God revealing himself to us does not take away free will.

Quote[/b] ]Upon ending this post, i've only now read this. However, you must understand, that God IS love, and I cannot get away without telling you this! No other pleasure of this world remotely relates to the pleasure in which I and my Christian brethren experience through the love of God! I would have to account to God for your soul if I did not tell you how loving and awesome He truly is! And how are Bible verses irrelevent? The Bible is God's word. You have many books in your library, I'm sure, but only one authored by God. All other books are irrelevent. The key to salvation and hope and ALL the answers you seek, my freind, are in those "cute yet irrelevent Bible verse"s.

I didn't explain what I meant very well. What I mean is, I might ask someone (this happens a lot more in real life) a specific question, say for example, "Why is the penaly of sin death?" They'll respond by dodging the question, telling me why Jesus came, following up with their testimonial, and finishing off with quoting a random feel good verse. I've nothing against testimonials, The Bible, anyone's pet animal, or cheesecake.

(my turn to hope the bit about cheesecake and animals doesn't require sleep depravation to seem funny)

Quote[/b] ]1) To not accept God means to instead accept sin and worldliness. Sin = ####ation

I'm probably getting a bit like a 5 year old Child by now (and sorry if I am), but yes, here it is - why? I've got a more detailed response in my response to Kidan.

Quote[/b] ]While its true that they are punished, I think that the TRUE punishment is a conscious separation from God.

I see your point, but I'd like to test it further. You bathe me in petrol, set me on fire, and I'll see if the first thing that comes to mind is "Dang, think of all the fun things that I could be doing right now. I could be chatting with my friends -- and here I am on fire..." Sorry for the sacrasm, but if Hell is that nasty, then it's kind of valid.

Quote[/b] ]Author's Note : It's quarter after 12, and due to school, I'm REALLY tired....that analogy was so bad, but due to my weakening perception of reality as my eyelids grow heavy, i thought it ravishingly funny as i typed it...please, PLEASE forgive me

Hehe, it's funny... in a 'what the heck is wrong with you?' kind of way.

j/k I did actually laugh out loud when I read it -- and I'm sort of a cat person, so that says something...

 

[Ultima Avatar]

I feel as if we're being toyed around with...okay the feeling's past.
Sin drelin is sin. There is no escape from it. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I won't let you try and figure it out: I'll tell you what I think it means: everyone's sinful. They're marred, they're corrupted. They're unworthy of God, whom we hold to be a perfect divine being. However, Jesus Christ died for us that we if we believed in his death and resurrection, we could be cleansed of sin so that we could be with God. Wow. That's cool!
We're as bad as Satan, yes. Sin does not differ, I don't think. One sin is as bad as a zillion sins, because it only takes one to separate you from God, and since we are born into sin, well, we're automatically separate from God. Hell is for the unrepentent and the fallen angels. God doesn't want it to be for anyone, but since his angels chose to rebel, and man chose to rebel, well, not everyone can live in his glory any more. So he made hell for them. I don't think it would be right or just of God to make a happy place for the ####ed and a happy place for the saved. He gave us a choice: believe in me and live with me in Heaven, or disregard me and die in hell forever. Whoop. You make your decision. PErsonally, I'd rather live with God in heaven.
I have posed this question: once we get to Heaven, do we only worship God forever, or do we still have a will to sin again? If so, then this could be a neverending cycle. I manipulate a thousand friends to rebel against God in heaven and we get booted out.
I don't think God would make another Earth for man to glorify HIm because of that though. I think we would just be cast in hell. But then, what if all the rest of the saved rebelled agaisnt God and there was no one left in Heaven but God? Argh!
So I think, yes. Sin is destroyed at last when we are in heaven and in hell. No one can sin anymore. It's separated from God forever. Which I would prefer. It's kinda of a scary thought, though. Passing from this world to live forever (as in no more years)
If God chooses not to reveal himself that's his prerogative. I think the reason he conceals his true features from us is for the unsaved to still believe, blindly (the only faith there is) that he is. The only way we can believe in God is through faith. If he showed himself, then we could all document, "Oh yeah I saw God for sure, so I believe in him." No, it takes FAITH! You believe that God exists, and if you refuse to, then you have made your choice.
I can't answer that one about those who seek God but are from another religion. There was a short story by an Arab poet translated by Leo Tolstoy and in his book, "Divine and Human." It was about a man praying to a statue. Gabriel sees him and doesn't appreciate it. God says, "He's seeking me. He doesn't know me, but he seeks me." SO it's all right. The dude's seeking God by praying to a statue. I understand that. I don't know what God personally feels about it or if it's just a way to excite sympathy on the idolaters.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Hah! So what you're saying is that your REWARD for exercising your Free Will and eschewing worldly proof for divine faith is the supression of that Free Will in heaven?

I'd love to know if that's based on actual scripture or just your conclusions - both are valid as a point of discussion, but one would give me yet another reason to steer well clear of Christianity whilst the other would merely suggest to me that you have remarkably low expectations.

Eon

 

[timor]

Eon, the thing is, we know very little about Heaven and Hell. What we know of Heaven is that it is where God dwells, where there is no sickness, pain, want, or SIN, and that is arrived at logically because

God is perfect and sinless
Sin goes to hell (via the non-repentant sinners)
God dwells in Heaven

sooooooo Hell = sin while Heaven = no sin

I'm sorry I have no scripture verses for you, as non have come to mind.

However, about the free will, remember that our free will is questionable. And assuming it's there, do NOT look at Heaven as a "suppression" of free will! If we choose to obey God here on Earth, when we've not yet seen him with our eyes and only felt him in our hearts, then how much MORE would we wish to serve him once we're in Heaven and can see and experience him first-hand? Now, why did some angels choose not to serve him? *shrugs* Angels are completely different from us - I've absolutely no answer for that.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ Jan. 11 2003,10:01)]

Quote[/b] ]That's straight-forward. But it begs the question of why sin even exists in the first place. Is it a by-product of man's disobedience? If so, then God must have let it come into being. Why? And why did God make the knowledge of good and evil something that would let sin into the world? What was so bad about the knowledge of God and evil? God has it - does that mean God is sinful? No... I suppose that is the same logic Satan used on Eve, so I'll leave it there for now.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone could answer that. I guess you've all got the same resources at your disposal (scriptures), though most of you seem to have a better grasp of them than I.

You're thinking into VERY deep theology, my freind! And that's good! It could very well mean that you are strongly seeking God - but it also means that your answers maynot be found on this board by we amateurs

I suggest you make a completely new thread on this. It would pick up very quickly, I'm sure, and would be better answered isolated.

Quote[/b] ]Even so, to my mind, it would seem more reasonable if Jesus would (somewhere during the Revelation time-period) would preach to those in hell and give them an option to be saved, similar to when he did that with those who hadn't had that opportunity because they were born before Jesus decended.

First, if Jesus were to preach to those who rejected him, are dead, and assumingly then REALIZE that they rejected the truth, who would say no? They had their whole lives - that's not one change, but a million - to accept Jesus. And about those who were born before 1 A.D., you must remember that people such as Job, Abraham, Daniel, etc. served God with all their hearts and I'm sure they went to Heaven. I mean, an angel addresses Daniel as "you who are greatly loved in Heaven".

What was the criteria back then? Who knows? Only God knows. You can make some guesses, but I don't feel myself qualified to do that. Perhaps someone else may...

Quote[/b] ]Does one have true free-will when a gun is pointed at one's head? Is that not what God did in the flood and at S&G? Not fully, I concede, as he wiped out humans bar 8 people in the flood. But what's the point of that? God hasn't removed sin as He would have if he'd also killed Noah and his family and restarted. Or did He figure that it would be just the same to take our choice away?

The whole "gun to the head" example confuses me...allow me to just skip over that, ok?

As to the flood, you're right, sin returned later on, as sin is a natural human tendency. However, notice that God promised never to destroy his people in a flood ever again - why would he make that promise if he did not forsee it coming back? That does beg the question of why even flood at all in the first place, but the people were TERRIBLY corrupt, and we are approaching that level again, methinks. But hey, we're not gonna be drowned - we have the seals, scrolls, and horsemen of the apocalypse coming at us! Good grief...

Quote[/b] ]It's true people has a knack for rationalizing away miracles (possibly because they actually have a rational explanation, but I'll maintain my theist point of view). But God, being the all powerful being He is, could 'convince' us of the validity of his claims. I wouldn't feel as if my free will had been compromised, as it would do nothing more than put us on a somewhat equal footing with Adam. On the other hand, it would kind of put a damper on agnostics.

I regret not being able to produce a scripture quotation on this right now, but I believe it to be said that those who do not believe the other signs God has given us would not believe it if God came down and shook their hand - they'd say it was a magic trick. Their hearts are hardened, and it is impossible for them to know God unless the Holy Spirit works in them. Look at the pharoah of Egypt - all those plagues and still he persisted in his ways!

Quote[/b] ]Yes. The question of 'why doesn't God make another place that's not so nasty' is for the purpose of this discussion interchangeable with 'why did God make hell nasty.'

Any place other than heaven is very nasty for sin is in it. And because, as was said earlier, God sees all sins as equal, and only one sin merits seperation from God. HOWEVER!!!! I do believe there may be different levels of Hell, just as I believe there are different benefits in Heaven. Why? Because we are told to store up rewards in Heaven for ourselves. Thus, someone who has served God his whole life will enjoy more benefits in Heaven than someone who gives his life to the Lord on his death bed. Notice, both are rewarded with Heaven, so the one on the death bed certainly isn't being short-changed, but the one who served his whole life is being rewarded. It can then be assumed that according to your sins/life, you may suffer a different level of Hell than another - and all are likely to be less horrible than the Lake which awaits Lucifer!

By the way, I loved the cheesecake bit. And don't worry, I'm a cat person all the way - which makes it even funnier

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] ]But it begs the question of why sin even exists in the first place. Is it a by-product of man's disobedience? If so, then God must have let it come into being. Why? And why did God make the knowledge of good and evil something that would let sin into the world? What was so bad about the knowledge of God and evil? God has it - does that mean God is sinful?

Sin is a product of man's disobedience.  If Adam had not eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil man would still be under grace.  The knowledge didn't let sin into the world, it just made mankind aware of it.  It made us aware of the consequences of our actions and the fact that our actions do have consequences.

Quote[/b] ]Even so, to my mind, it would seem more reasonable if Jesus would (somewhere during the Revelation time-period) would preach to those in hell and give them an option to be saved

Well, take a dog.  If this dog goes an kills a chicken, do you put the dog down or let it live to continue killing chickens.  How often do you need to be given a chance to make a decision?    Those in Hell HAD an option to be saved.  They had the same chances and choices as everyone else.  There salvation is in their hands now, today, right this minute, for that is all we are given.

Quote[/b] ]It's my turn, I've only got one dice roll, and I need to roll a six. My first roll, I get a three, but I keep on rolling until I get a six. Fair? Or an alternative example - Does one have true free-will when a gun is pointed at one's head? Is that not what God did in the flood and at S&G? Not fully, I concede, as he wiped out humans bar 8 people in the flood. But what's the point of that? God hasn't removed sin as He would have if he'd also killed Noah and his family and restarted. Or did He figure that it would be just the same to take our choice away?

 Of course that's not fair.  If the rules say u get to roll once, that's all you get.  Likewise God says the rules are we have to make the choice for or against Christ before we die.  as for the gun, yes you still have free-will.  If someone puts a gun to my head an tells me to renounce Jesus, I have the choice to do so or not (this is a test that Christians will have to face during the Tribulation, with beheadings as opposed to a gun).  Actually in both the flood and S&G God was fed up with the iniquity that was found, saving only that portion which still held true to Him (Noah and Lot respectively)  They had rejected God already and was living in sin and debauchery.

Quote[/b] ]But God, being the all powerful being He is, could 'convince' us of the validity of his claims. I wouldn't feel as if my free will had been compromised, as it would do nothing more than put us on a somewhat equal footing with Adam

But at the same time if he 'convinced' us to the point of no questioning that He does exist and He is the creator, then people would argue that they do not have  a choice.  Jesus has said

Quote[/b] ]John 20:29  Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Quote[/b] ]
Quote  
1) To not accept God means to instead accept sin and worldliness. Sin = ####ation


I'm probably getting a bit like a 5 year old Child by now (and sorry if I am), but yes, here it is - why?

Why?  Because, thats' why.  We have two choices, to accept Christ or not.  There is no third choice.  It's digital.  A yes or no.


Eon

Quote[/b] ]Hah! So what you're saying is that your REWARD for exercising your Free Will and eschewing worldly proof for divine faith is the supression of that Free Will in heaven?

I'd love to know if that's based on actual scripture or just your conclusions

That's not a scripture.  Its Timor's conclusion.  But as it stands, we have made a choice, we are FOR Christ, now when we are not able to see Him.  If we have faith now, why would it dissipate when we ARE able to see Him.