Modernism vs Post-Modernism, in the Church

Hey Partriot,

Not that I agree with everything this author writes but Rob Bell is one who kinda fits into this mold along with Brian McLarian...
 
Hey Partriot,

Not that I agree with everything this author writes but Rob Bell is one who kinda fits into this mold along with Brian McLarian...
Which mold? I guess that is one of the confusing aspects of this thread. What are we discussing?
 
Rob Bell is typically seen as a post-modern author. However, it's odd because he simultaneously preaches some very conservative ideas, too.

An example of his post-modern teachings would be that Truth can be found anywhere, in any culture. For example, the Bible teaches that we all recognize the Shepard's voice. So it is very possible for a Buddhist monk to recognize God's truths, even if they are following the wrong god.

A Biblical example of that is Solomon. He was a very well educated man, very smart. He recognized many truths from the Egyptian culture. There are numerous artifacts that predate Solomon by hundreds of years that were found in modern Egypt - that contained very linguistically similar statements to things that Solomon said. Solomon recognized God's truth in the Egyptians words, even if they did not realize the Source.

Oddly, it's taken ~4000 years, but we've come full-circle back to the "post-modern" theories that Solomon recognized.
 
So long as one views other sources of truth through a Biblical worldview. . .

There is plenty of deception mixed in with those other nuggets of truth. Quite frankly, I don't see much added value in allowing the world to give me its version of truth even if much of it is, in fact, true (a little leaven leavens the whole lump - Gal 5:9). Perhaps I am burying my head in the sand, but I am in a battle against an extremely dangerous enemy who will take any advantage he can.
 
But you missed part of the point. A decent chunk of Proverbs were actually written long before Solomon's time, in a region that did not follow our God. Universal Truths are universally true... that is, they do not depend on a specific time, place or person to apply.

Fortunately, Solomon was wise enough to discern which sayings were Universal Truths, that is, that they were the words of God, even though they came through the unbelievers.
 
But don't post-modernists reject the idea of universal truths?

As I said earlier in this thread, Post-modernists believe strongly in universal truths. They just believe that these truths are only accessed via perspectives, which are not universal.

Whimsical illustration:
Broccoli is a food. In its "universal form," it contains no poisons, and if you were to ask a chemist about the compounds that give it a taste, they will tell you that its taste is more or less constant.

Yet, if you give it to someone who is highly allergic to it, it will no longer be a food. It might be a poison.

Likewise, someone you ask may say that it is gross, another that it has a great, sharp taste, and another may say it tastes very "green." These perspectives do not change the chemical taste compounds of the broccoli, but when it comes to trying to feed your kids, these taste perspectives are often all that matters.
 
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But you missed part of the point. A decent chunk of Proverbs were actually written long before Solomon's time, in a region that did not follow our God. Universal Truths are universally true... that is, they do not depend on a specific time, place or person to apply.

Fortunately, Solomon was wise enough to discern which sayings were Universal Truths, that is, that they were the words of God, even though they came through the unbelievers.
Could I get a source? I haven't heard that they were from before his time.

As I said earlier in this thread, Post-modernists believe strongly in universal truths. They just believe that these truths are only accessed via perspectives, which are not universal.

Whimsical example:
Broccoli is a food. In its "universal form," it contains no poisons, and if you were to ask a chemist about the compounds that give it a taste, they will tell you that its taste is more or less constant.

Yet, if you give it to someone who is highly allergic to it, it will no longer be a food. It might be a poison.

Likewise, someone you ask may say that it is gross, another that it has a great, sharp taste, and another may say it tastes very "green." These perspectives do not change the chemical taste compounds of the broccoli, but when it comes to trying to feed your kids, these taste perspectives are often all that matters.
This defies the very definition of the word "universal." If broccoli is poison to one person and one person only it still is not a universal truth that broccoli contains no poisons.

An example of universal truth would be that we are saved by grace, not works. This is true for everyone at every time. It does not have exceptions or it would not be universal.
 
Hmm in the case of the broccoli, can its truth (in regards to not being poison, or even its taste) really be considered to be universal/absolute, if it is not valid in all times and places?
 
Yeah, that's why I edited it and changed the wording from example to "illustration."

Actually, broccoli containing no poisons (in chemistry) would still be true, as poisons are particular chemical contructions (although I'm no chemist.)


Couple more comments: Rob Bell would be considered a post-Conservative, so he does have some pretty strong conservative views. But that's a foreshadowing for my next wall-o-text.
 
Also, I missed something from my post on Experiential-Expressivism. That is, I forgot to continue my example of the meaning of "We are saved by grace alone."
Because this thread has so many posts in the last little while, I don't think it makes sense to edit that thread now.

For the E-E model, being saved by grace isn't a factual claim about how grace works. Instead, it is a symbolic expression of what the author (Paul) experienced when he was saved.

It is the experience that he, and others, had when the power of God saved them; instead of it being an experience of working hard, it was something different. They called that different feeling "grace."

At some point, someone else said you needed something they called "works." Paul says "hey, I didn't, nor do I know anyone who did, need works. We were saved by grace alone. Period." Paul felt it was paramount to let people know that salvation happened by this grace stuff and not by working at it.
 
I guess I'm getting confused at what Neirai is actually proposing since he is describing liberal vs. conservative vs. fundamental vs. post-modernism but at such a high level that it makes it difficult for me to relate it to anything I know.

Neirai - Perhaps if you could provide some concrete examples of how a post-modernist would interpret the Bible, that would be helpful.

I actually haven't got to the Post-modernists yet. I was hoping not to explain expressionism at all (because it is very high-level,) except that I found it very hard to talk about this without bringing in expressionism. Other ways simply led to a lot of "and they do this just because they do," which would be inaccurate. I'll get to post-modernism tonight, by the grace of God.
 
For the E-E model, being saved by grace isn't a factual claim about how grace works. Instead, it is a symbolic expression of what the author (Paul) experienced when he was saved.
This flies in the face of the very wording of the passage as a whole (Ephesians 2:8-9). Paul is not describing his personal experience, he is explaining to the believers at Ephesus how they were/are saved. I completely reject Experiential-Expressivism.
 
Back to talking about Theological Expressionism, Philosophy and Religion, and how they work together.

This time, I'm actually going to talk about Post-modernists!

Cultural-Linguistic Expressionism
To unpack those big and official-sounding words into something useful, I'll translate them into something a little less strange.

"Cultural" means "in a culture," and linguistic means "using or creating language." Put together, they basically mean "using language within a culture."

According to this expressionist model, doctrines in the Bible function in a way similar to the way language does in a culture.

Say what?

That is to say, scriptures were written within the bounds of a culture, often as speeches or letters, written from a person or people in a position of authority to a group of people who were under the author's supervision.

Doctrinal statements, then, were communally authoritative rules of discourse, attitudes, and action.

*This isn't to say that they were legalistic. Rather, they were much like "vision statements," or "memos," in that they functioned to tell people about the Apostles' goals, give directions, or to correct abnormal or abusive behavior.*

In order to properly understand a doctrine, then, it must be first placed into a perspective similar to that of the original target audience, and then when the original intention is illuminated, then and only then can it be taken out of that context and placed into any other context.

Back to grace alone. According to Postmodern (yes, this is often the postmodern approach,) in the viewpoint of Cultural Linguistics, the phrase "we are saved by grace alone" can be interpreted as followed:

"Christians should always speak and act about their salvation in a way that expresses gratitude to God, and not pride in their own accomplishments." (We are saved by grace alone, and not by works, lest any man should boast.)

In other words, Paul was mediating between two groups of Christians. One, the Jewish Christians, had the law and the prophets and the traditions and the Talmud and the bloodline of Abraham and all of this great theological knowledge at their backs. And this gave the Jewish Christians a sense of superiority in their salvation compared to the other Christians, the Gentile Christians. A year ago, the Gentile Christians had been burning sacrifices to Zeus, Poseidon, and Diana, visiting oracles, and sleeping with temple prostitutes. They didn't know anything about the great Jewish traditions.

And Paul steps in and says "none of this matters, because you're not saved by any of those things."

"Christians shouldn't act as if their works (traditions, sacrifices, etc) saved them. Because they didn't."


The above example, btw, isn't my own. I should just make that clear.

Post-modern theologians, then, rely on what they call Narrative Theology, which actually comes from Yale school in the States. Basically, the idea is to consider Christianity as a separate unit from other religions (go figure) and to use literary criticism, rather than historical criticism, to understand the texts.

Basically, the Bible is not a history textbook. It's a set of books, essays, biographies, stories, legends (not necessarily the fictional kind,) and some literary anthologies. There's actually very few history books in there.

And in addition, the Biblical texts are intimately connected to the communities that read them -- narratives shape communities, and communities are shaped by the narratives that they read. <<<and that line was copied directly from the powerpoint in my hand, which means it's copyright my theology prof, Dr. Jeff MacPherson. Just saying.


As an aside, when it comes to applying these doctrines to your own life, the Postmodernist basically (oversimplifying) does the same process in reverse, re-shaping the expressions to apply to the current culture without doing violence to either (I could make a decent case to say that Propositional and E-E expressionism do violence either to today's culture or to the originals.)


Aaaand philosophy. You're not going to get away from it. Actually, this opens up a new section:

Post-Liberalism
Unfortunately, I don't have a nice handy powerpoint to look at Post-Conservatism, so you'll just get this one. More or less.

Post-liberalism is the result of applying Cultural-Linguistic models to Liberal theology.

Liberal theology, as covered before, seeks a foundation for truth in universal human experiences.


I'm going to break out of the purple to explain how Post-liberal theology is different:

1) Post-liberal theology is non-foundationalist; that is to say, that it doesn't require an external experience ("I think, therefore I am," for example) in order to understand the universe.
That is to say, knowledge is not based on logicking through your experiences. Instead, knowledge is grounded in belief.
Experience is never pure; it is always interpreted. Therefore it makes no sense to base your philosophy off of logic + experience.

2) Post-liberalism rejects the idea of an overriding metaphysical philosophy that fully explains everything.
In other words, the Post-liberals don't see philosophy as a requirement for theology. Instead, they only use philosophy when it is helpful. Non-Christian frameworks, such as philosophies or cultures, should not set the context for Christian beliefs.

3. Post-liberals recognize that religions are different, so they don't try to come up with the universal mega-religion that reduces all the religions into one thing.

4. Post liberals emphasize the scriptural stories or narratives by which Christians learn to identify God and which shape the Christian community.

5. Post-liberals frame moral discussions in the contexts of virtues and character as opposed to legalistic requirements or situational ethics.


A brief note on Post-Conservatives

I don't have a fancy-dancy source for information on Post-Conservatives. However, while Post-conservatives begin with the Conservative "Propositional" model and apply Post-modernism to that, what they end up with looks an awful lot like those 5 points above, although for different reasons. Post-conservatives also use a Cultural-Linguist model of Expressionism to form their theology.

This means that Post-liberals and Post-Conservatives get along just fine, for the first time since about Descartes.
 
When you say post-liberals...well could you define a bit more for me? You meaning liberal as a normal conservative would see it...or is "post"-liberal something different entirely? Sorry that term through me off a bit...
 
Could I get a source? I haven't heard that they were from before his time.

Sure. Sorry that I forgot to include that. Most scholars agree that Solomon died circa 931 BC, approximately 80 years old, meaning he was born some time around 1011 BC. Point of reference, the Temple construction was started approximately 968 BC.

From Wiki:

Influences:

There has been a consensus among scholars that there is a crossover of some Egyptian and Assyrian nature in the proverbs from The Instructions of Amenemopet (3) and Ahiqar.(4)

3. ”Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume II: The New Kingdom”, p146-163, Miriam Lichtheim, University of California Press, 1976, ISBN 0-520-03615-8

4. The personification of Wisdom, Alice M. Sinnott, Society for Old Testament Study

Instruction of Amenemope (also called Instructions of Amenemopet, Wisdom of Amenemopet) is a literary work composed in Ancient Egypt, most likely during the Ramesside Period (c. 1300–1075 BC)

Even if it had been written and distributed 75 years outside of the approximately range, it would have still been written when Solomon was 11. He was smart, but not that smart. Ahiqar appears to actually come much later, and includes portions of Proverbs, as well as saying from many other origins of influence. If anything, I would say that the article leads me to believe that Solomon's work was added to Ahiqar, not the converse.

I can get you more detail about the archeological references tomorrow - I left my Archeology Study Bible at work.
 
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Post-modern theologians, then, rely on what they call Narrative Theology, which actually comes from Yale school in the States. Basically, the idea is to consider Christianity as a separate unit from other religions (go figure) and to use literary criticism, rather than historical criticism, to understand the texts.

Basically, the Bible is not a history textbook. It's a set of books, essays, biographies, stories, legends (not necessarily the fictional kind,) and some literary anthologies. There's actually very few history books in there.

And in addition, the Biblical texts are intimately connected to the communities that read them -- narratives shape communities, and communities are shaped by the narratives that they read.

Now in reference to this idea I would have to say literary criticism is more where I lean. Because, as I studied under my Hebrew professor in seminary, he would often comment that our "version" of the OT is not exactly properly in order. In fact, he wrote a whole commentary on why the Pentatuch should be seen as a WHOLE NARRATIVE and not five individual books. Also he notes how that in the Hebrew language each OT book is linked to the previous book by certain words or phrases thus making them a fluent series of teachings etc, building on the promises of God and not necessarily for "Historical" understanding but for theological understanding. An example is how our section of the prophets in the english bibles is somewhat mixed up thus we have a lot of disorder in when things occurred etc. While the readers of the original text would know and understand (especially the NT believers) the true meaning of the texts.
Even the lineages given in Genesis and other areas is not "completely" the entire lineage but only those that are of importance.
 
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