Moral Question - Piracy

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]...I'm not just talking about money here ... ...Games take YEARS to make, and they all have a cost for the Developers who work on them - whether that cost be health problems, failed relationships, financial pressures...

If you play my game without paying me, then you're taking something of mine that you have no right to.You're profiting from my creativity, and enjoying the fruits of my 14 hour days. My divorce. My stress related illness. And you don't deserve it, you freeloading bastard....
Click to expand...

ah, you don't even know me, but because of money I'm a Bas****.
But its never because of the money right? Just like the guy who sued fast food companies for making him fat, its never about the money...
I'm sorry to hear about your divorce, I would have no idea how you feel. Marrage is an eternal vow between two people, and I believe it always takes a lot more than a job to break that up. If it is truly only a result of your job I think you should consider how shallow that is.
 
Good question Master, but there is a bit of a difference. When you're in the hardware store examining the part, you know how you can make that part yourself. So you go home and make one like it. Nothing wrong with that because you made it yourself.

Now if you went to the software store, saw an expensive game that you liked, then went home and programmed your own game that did the same thing, then that would be in par with your hardware example because you created your own version instead of taking someone else's. And in that case, there is nothing wrong because you created your own. Taking that program and copying it to a blank CD is not quite the same because you're not programming your own game, you're taking the game's program code from someone else's without giving them proper payment or credit. And that's where it becomes wrong.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Feb. 10 2004,6:53)]alrite, I'll throw a contraversile arguemt at you guys just because I"m in the argueing mood.

Suppose your walking down the isle of your favorite hardware store, and you see a really cool hose roller-upper. You say, "hey, that would be perfect for my backyard" So you look at the price tag, and its like $99.99. and your thinking 'thats a great idea that I would never have thought of, but thats a bogus high price. I can make one of these guys myself, no problem.' after reviewing the product on the shelf you go into the ol garage and make the same thing with some two-by-fours that you bought in the hardware store, pat yourself on the back, and put it in your backyard.

I can hear the counter argument already," but when you burn a cd, your not actually going through all the steps the developer did to make the game..." However If you think about it, thats not the point at all. You bought the blank cds, just like buying the two-by-fours. you memorized how the item was made on the shelf just like burning the cd on your hardrive, and you used your tools to form the wood into the hose roller-upper just like using your cd burning rom tool to make the pirated cd.

Soooo, is copying physical products wrong too?
-Corey
Click to expand...
when you were in school, would you have copied someone's term paper to turn in as your own?

Yes you bought the sheets of paper, yes you physically wrote it. Yes you looked it over, to 'learn' the information. yet you did not make it.

This is what you're doing, when you copy the game. You're taking someone else's hard work and intelligence and basically claiming it as your own.

Your example of the hose roller, fails, because 1) most hose rollers, are made from molded plastic, and 2) you didn't memorize the details of the roller construction. Rather you had an end result that you created to fulfill the same task as the hose roller, which by the nature of the task, calls for the home-created item to look similar to the store-bought one.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"most hose rollers, are made from molded plastic," "and also they probably wouldnt spend 1-2 million dollars programing a hose thingy"
Click to expand...
ok guys, you got me, I was being facetious with the hose roller example.
laugh.gif


anyway, heres the part where I guess we get into technical details.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]then that would be in par with your hardware example because you created your own version instead of taking someone else's.
Click to expand...
so if I managed to make my hose roller identical to the one in the store, it would be wrong?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]when you were in school, would you have copied someone's term paper to turn in as your own?
Click to expand...
Thats a good arguement but I think the difference is at school, you are rewarded for copying. I think it would be more like if you don't attend school, but went to a school, copied someones term paper and hung it on your A+ work wall at home. No one is affected by act. I don't turn in the pirated software as my own, I simply enjoy it.

(I'm not totally subborn, I'm starting to see your guys' side of it though)
-Corey
 
but u are awarded by pirating the software. u get to play it without paying for it. It's like getting an A that you didn't earn.
 
I wouldn't say it's not about the money - it's just not about the money for ME. Why is that, Eon? Are you some paragon of the creative virtues?

No, of course not.

The truth is that, as the Developer, I get to see almost exactly squat of the money you guys pay for a game. There are serried ranks of suit wearing types who suck the money out of the system LONG before it gets to me. Some companies DO actually pay bonuses (the place I work now is a prime example of enlightened policy)  but on the whole bonuses are a rather sore point in the industry.

So for me it IS rather more about all the unpaid hours I sink into a game I'm working on. It IS about all the health problems this causes. About the fact that I haven't had a proper summer holiday this century. About the fatigue and stress that ensured that even when I WAS home I wasn't much fun to be around. About the unique body-chemistry I developed from starting each day with a can of Red Bull, 2 ProPlus and a cigarette.

So if you get to reap the benefits from all the above, and you don't contribute even the tiny percentage that I is due me, then I think I'm quite justified in calling you a B****rd because of the money. Because of the fact that you are stealing from me and won't even have the common courtesy to admit it. Because of the fact that you feel justified in coming to a public forum and playing the "victimless crime" card.

The bottom line is that when you Pirate a game, movie or music track, you are taking something from the creators without asking and without reimbursing them. It may not square neatly with the classic definition of theft - but I don't see how in the world it could be argued to be a "good" thing...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Feb. 10 2004,11:46)]so if I managed to make my hose roller identical to the one in the store, it would be wrong?
Click to expand...
I think I do see your point.  In one way, it wouldn't be wrong because you got your own materials and used it for your own construction.  (You built it.)  But if you tried to market that, you could be wrong if the owner of the original item had a patton (sp?) or a copyright on his product.

Now, if you had a cloning machine, and you bought the item from the store, cloned an exact duplicate from it in the machine, and then returned the item for your money back, then that would be wrong.  Because you're basically stealing something you never really formulated or created.  You're copying/cloning someone else's product (not necessarily just their idea). And that's a little different than making one with your own materials your own way.

Its why I was saying if you created your own roller hose (nice example by the way), it would be as if you programmed your own game.  And that's not wrong.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now, if you had a cloning machine, and you bought the item from the store, cloned an exact duplicate from it in the machine, and then returned the item for your money back, then that would be wrong. Because you're basically stealing something you never really formulated or created. You're copying/cloning someone else's product (not necessarily just their idea). And that's a little different than making one with your own materials your own way.
Click to expand...
-alrite, Ive been swayed against pirating software. This is a good argument that makes a lot of sense. I honestly can see why it is wrong now, call me a changed man....


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So if you get to reap the benefits from all the above, and you don't contribute even the tiny percentage that I is due me, then I think I'm quite justified in calling you a Bastard because of the money. Because of the fact that you are stealing from me and won't even have the common courtesy to admit it. Because of the fact that you feel justified in coming to a public forum and playing the "victimless crime" card.
Click to expand...
sad.gif
Call me what you will, but because I don't know you, your insults don't really hold any value. I don't write on this forum to play victimless crime cards, I just want a logical discussion like everyone else who posts. Don't talk to me about common courtesy if you put your job before your family and your health...
 
I have to agree with you Gods_Peon. I think nothing but bad can come when you start to redefine "right" and "wrong" by justifying to yourself. This philosophy of relativism is a lie that has permiated the world's viewpoint and sadly, even a lot of churches. The bible says stealing is wrong...period. Even if there were computers at the time the law was written, I doubt there would have been any exceptions. God's word is timeless in my opinion.
 
A lot of you missed the main point of my argument here. I never said that I wanted to buy the game, but didnt feel like paying for it. That was not my point. My point was, that I would not have bought the game at all, but it was given to me in pirated form. The publisher did not lose any money from me, because they were not going to make any money from me in the first place.

As for the example of that town, basically it's like saying that 1/2 of the town decided that they wanted the game, and the other that they didnt. All of those people that planned to buy the game did, and a few of the people that didn't plan to buy it, got it from those people that did buy it. Did you techincally lose any money there? You made your $40 that you planned to make, and the other $40 you would not have gotten either way.

As for the 30hr job example, if you are slacking off on your work and only getting 3/4ths of your work done because youre only working 3/4ths of the time, then yes, that is wrong. But if youre getting all of your work done, and you leave early because there is nothing better to do, then is that also wrong? Is the fact that you don't want to stick around for the next 2 hours of every day doing nothing really cheating the company? Does it matter where you do the nothing?

This isn't relativism, i'm simply stating, intelectual property is not the same thing as material property, therefore you can not apply the same rules. It's essentially like applying the commandments to animals as well, saying that we can not kill animals because it is wrong. Humans and animals are two seperate things, therefore the same rules do not apply to them, same with something that is real (material objects), and something that is essentially completely replenishable (intelectual property).
 
I want so much to be the fly on the wall when you try and explain this logic of yours before the throne of judgement.
 
If you don't want to buy it then don't play it. It's like food in the restaurant - if you don't want to pay for it then you don't eat it!

As someone who doesn't particularly want to play it too much, then you are the kind of guy who can wait until it bargain bins. If you're the kind of guy who needs to have all the latest games right now, then be prepared to pay a premium.

Whether or not you ever intended to pay full (or indeed ANY price) for the game becomes irrelevant the minute you obtain it illegally. After all, you can't say whether you would have wanted to pay for it had the option to get it for free not been there!

I'll agree with you that Intellectual Property is a tougher proposition than a material item - but IP's also require resources to develop and market. Those resources are an investment which needs to be protected. Perhaps the following definition helps.

When you buy a game you don't buy the software, you buy a license to use it. The Developer (or Publisher) retains ownership of the software and you are given a list of strict controls over how your use of the software is allowed to happen.

When you pirate the game, you are effectively stealing the license to use it. You're right that the original software remains unharmed and unstolen with the Developer/Publisher, but the license to use that software, the right to determine what legal use of it is, that has been stolen by you from them.

Master~plan - a lack of regard for the opinions of others is the hallmark of the criminal mind. I develop Computer Games for a living - you steal Computer Games as a hobby. Did you think I could possibly have a positive opinion of that? Also, please remember that I directed the word b***ard at "The Pirate" rather than you personally, your assumption of that title takes away any right to be morally outraged by my choice of words.

Regarding my personal lifestyle - first of all, there are people who were entitled to be annoyed at me because of my prioritisations. You're not one of them. I'm guessing that you've never had either a mortgage to pay or a job that would be better described as a vocation. Games Development does NOT get done on a 9 to 5 basis - that's why we dislike people stealing our work from us.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (guyee @ Feb. 11 2004,5:39)]As for the example of that town, basically it's like saying that 1/2 of the town decided that they wanted the game, and the other that they didnt. All of those people that planned to buy the game did, and a few of the people that didn't plan to buy it, got it from those people that did buy it. Did you techincally lose any money there? You made your $40 that you planned to make, and the other $40 you would not have gotten either way.
Click to expand...
There is a provision in a few software licenses, including Microsoft (I actually read the EULA sometimes), that says that you can give your software to a friend so long as you give them all the CDs and remove the software from your computer.  So in a few cases, programs can be passed on, but it all depends on the license as mentioned above.

But for the most part, when the game is bought, it is bought for sole use of the purchaser.  The moment it is copied and given to someone else, whether that person was going to buy it or not, you have broken the agreement that you were going to be the only user of that one software package and you have stolin from the company.

Give that a try.  Next time you install a game or software, if it comes up with a license in the beginning, spend time to actually read it.  It will tell you whether you have the legal right to make copies for your friends or whether its illegal to do so.  For some software, its alright, for others, its not.  See what it says sometime.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Master~plan - a lack of regard for the opinions of others is the hallmark of the criminal mind.
Click to expand...
lack of regard for opinions? didn't I say "I honestly can see why it is wrong now, call me a changed man...." ,because I'm pretty sure I did post that.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I develop Computer Games for a living - you steal Computer Games as a hobby.QUOTE]
Yeah, one of my hobbies; going to the gym, growing bonsai trees, and stealing computergames. come on man...
Also, please remember that I directed the word bastard at "The Pirate" rather than you personally, your assumption of that title takes away any right to be morally outraged by my choice of words.
Click to expand...
No, I mentioned in a post earlier that I was in a ring of friends that gave me burned games, and you called people like me a Bas****.
Listen, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I'm not out to make enemies. I"ll make you a deal, I'll stop pirating games if you stop throwing insults. I will even stop pirating games if you do continue to throw insults because I know its wrong now.
Click to expand...
 
Whoops, I try not to kick a guy when he's admitted he was in the wrong, Master~Plan, so as far as I'm concerned you and I no longer have an issue between us. I still maintain that the insult was generally directed at all pirates, and that you kind of adopted it as a personal attack, hopefully you'll accept that and see that it was an insult against a class of people you no longer belong to, rather than an attack on you and you alone.

Like most disagreements, this seems to be seasoned with a gram of miscommunication...
smile.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top