Moral Question - Piracy

G

guyee

New Member
Now as most people here will say, piracy is theft, and theft is wrong.

Let's examine this deeper though, let's say a movie comes out, a movie that you have no intention of seeing, but a friend of yours has downloaded it, and let's you watch it. You think that it is in fact a good movie, and that you thoroughly enjoyed yourself, so you go out and buy a ticket to the movie, as to show the creaters of the movie that you support their work.

Would piracy in that sense be wrong? In this case, piracy wouldve actually benefited the creaters of this movie would it have not?

Now assume that a game is coming out, not a game that you're looking forward to, but you see it available to download from a pirate site, you download it and play it. You finish the game, and never play it again.

You had no intention of buying the game to begin with, have the creaters suffered in any way by you downloading this game instead of buying it?

I'm looking for any kind of intelligent argument here, please no "it's wrong because it's theft, theft is wrong, piracy is wrong", cause that's in no way logical, and won't convince anyone of anything.
 
I've thought a lot about this in correlation to music, and while I know I'm wrong, I can fully justify my position to at least myself.

I would like to hope that most musicians aren't out for the potential money that can be had in the industry, but are out to get their thoughts, emotions, and love out in a musical form. If said assumption is true, then the artists themselves should have no problem with people downloading their music, because it gets out their words en masse. Now, if they are out for money, then I strongly feel their motivation is wrong and thus deserve to lose all the money they might lose from downloaders. Sadly, the only singer/songwriter that I know of that has voiced their problems with downloading (Madonna) did it in a totally disrespectful manner. When further analyzed, I came to the conclusion that the reason I don't find her music at all enjoyable may be because when she writes/sings her songs, she does it with the knowledge that it will fill her purse.

El Jefe de Nadie
spooky wooky wooky:D
 
no a number of artists have whined about music piracy. Metallica being the actual forerunner

the only thing about music downloads is that you can hear them on the radio for free. you can make a copy on tape, and give it to someone (but u can't sell it) . if you have the cd, you can make a copy onto tape and give it to someone (but again, u can't seel it). To me, the same applies to music downloads. It's a copy of someone's cd, that they're lending out.

old movies (the ones that have been played at least once on broadcast tv) should have the same thought applied to it. If i can record it off the television (using my vcr to remove commercials) then why should it matter if i download it off the net? Notice New RElease movies would not fall in that category.

Software is utterly different. If you don't want to pay for something. Find a free version. The FSF has free versions of nearly everything. IF you don't want to find a free version. Make it yourself. Being a programmer, I can perfectly understand this one. I spend hours upon hours building programs. Why would I want someone to come along and take my work without reimbursing me for it? That's food they're taking out of my 1 year old's mouth.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D] @ Feb. 09 2004,2:04)]I would like to hope that most musicians aren't out for the potential money that can be had in the industry, but are out to get their thoughts, emotions, and love out in a musical form.  If said assumption is true, then the artists themselves should have no problem with people downloading their music, because it gets out their words en masse.  Now, if they are out for money, then I strongly feel their motivation is wrong and thus deserve to lose all the money they might lose from downloaders.  Sadly, the only singer/songwriter that I know of that has voiced their problems with downloading (Madonna) did it in a totally disrespectful manner.  When further analyzed, I came to the conclusion that the reason I don't find her music at all enjoyable may be because when she writes/sings her songs, she does it with the knowledge that it will fill her purse.
spooky wooky wooky:D
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not neccesarily, lets take local bands for example, there is a local christian band that I really like and they are really good. They could sign with a record company but they feel that they would get more money producing their own cds. There are four of the members in the band, they are all brothers, two of them have wives and the youngest one graduated high school last year. While their music is high quality and spiritually uplifiting, the band is their full time job. Their newest cd costs 12$ to buy, so for every cd that they sell, each of them makes less than 3 (haha) dollars. Saying that we should be able to share their music and make unlimited copies of it for free, when its their full time job is like saying that the pastors at your church shouldn't get paid.
 
People deserve compensation for the effort they have put into their work. Whether it be music, accounting or a home that has been built.

Both your examples are that of piracy. Even though in the first example, you went and paid for the movie afterwards. Your first act of watching the movie in the first place supports the act of receiving a benefit without compensating the artists who put the work together.

And definatly the second is theft in that you derived a benefit from the work of others without any compensation back to them. When you go to a hotel and use their services only once, you are still expected to pay the rental rate. Same with the game, you used, albeit only once, you are still expected to pay the compensation. And I don't care if you didn't like it. Most games come out with demos for you to try. Or if a friend has the game, you can try playing it on their system to see if you like it.

What it seems you are trying to argue, is "are there times where theft is justifiyable or rationalisable?"

The short answer is no.
The long answer is noooooooo.
 
www.whatsthedownload.com is a good site that has alot of that info. now on downloading a game and whatnot, thats what a demo is for and ps2 games and others have demos. u dont have to watch a full movie to want to go see it, they have trailors on yahoo.com to look at. to me downloading stuff is wrong. though i downloaded some music back when napster first was created and still have a few music files from back then, technically i obtained them while it was still legal so im safe.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the only thing about music downloads is that you can hear them on the radio for free. you can make a copy on tape, and give it to someone (but u can't sell it) . if you have the cd, you can make a copy onto tape and give it to someone (but again, u can't seel it). To me, the same applies to music downloads. It's a copy of someone's cd, that they're lending out.
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-good point kidan, I would have to agree

And if you pay for the game or movie after you pirate it, I don't think that is wrong. And honestly I'm in a ring of friends that pass games around that I never pay for. If I wasn't in the ring, I wouldn't pay for them anyway. I don't even play games that often, but I guess that doesn't matter, because if I played it at all, that counts. Personally I never had any guilt when it comes to this issue.
 
keep in mind, games are intelectual property. If i use them, theyre not technically losing anything, as much as just not gaining money. Your analogy doesnt really work here, mainly because if you are at a hotel, you are taking up resources. If you do not pay them, then they lost money because they could have rented the room to someone else.

With a game, it's not like there is only a limited number of copies of something that is completely intelectual, because you can always create more. Therefore, if you were never planning to buy the game, then if you pirate it, they dont really lose any money.
 
Where did my post go?

Basically, as a Developer, my view is that making a game requires a large expenditure of resources. I'm not just talking about money here - although it DOES take a lot of that too - I'm talking about the time, effort, heartbreak and creativity the Dev Team expends on it.

Games take YEARS to make, and they all have a cost for the Developers who work on them - whether that cost be health problems, failed relationships, financial pressures...

If you play my game without paying me, then you're taking something of mine that you have no right to.You're profiting from my creativity, and enjoying the fruits of my 14 hour days. My divorce. My stress related illness. And you don't deserve it, you freeloading bastard.

If you don't want to pay for it, then it's simple - don't play it! If it's not good enough to shell out $40 on, then it's not good enough to take up 10+ hours of your life on. And the vice versa is also true - if it entertained you for 10 hours then you probably ought to be able to pony up $4 an hour for it.
 
I downloaded some pillar tracks once, since the the samples weren't sufficient to represent their work. I eventually bought it the cd. So, if it's with the intention of buying, I don't think its wrong.
 
There is a difference between downloading samples and downloading entire songs.  I think many music companys would prefer you obtain the samples for the very reason you just mentioned.  But to obtain a song or software without legally paying for it, whether you were going to buy it or not is wrong.  Why?  Because God says so.

Exodus 20 : 15  "Thou shalt not steal."

Anytime you unfairly possess something that should belong to someone else (time/money/love/possessions), or you possess something that you have not legally acquired(music/software/movies/cars), or you seek to cheat to save money (IRS/sneaking grocery store items/taking home pens and toilet paper from work), it is stealing and it is wrong.  Downloading a game you weren't going to buy is just as wrong and serious a theft in God's eyes as trying to rob a bank.

So next time you have the urge to download music, burn a copy of software from a friend, or even have a collection of neighbor's dentures on your livingroom bookshelf, you better stop and realize that you are breaking God's commandment.  To steal is just as bad a sin as murdering your neighbor in God's eyes!  Always remember that and always strive to be righteous with your possessions.  After all, doesn't God bless you?  Sure, He doesn't give you all things so you can enjoy life, but He does give you life, so that you can enjoy all things!


If you take God out of the equation, then morality simply becomes lost in opinions and one man's morality is another man's unrighteousness. But put God back into what it means to be moral and righteous and things become a little clearer.
 
many music sites offer samples, games offer demos, there are review sites on various things, how can anyone seriously justify downloading full versions to try a product which already offers a demo?
 
Plenty of games have demo's that are completely misleading. I have played many demos for games that were mediocre, but the game itself was amazing, the opposite is also true.

As for reviews, reviews are subjective. There are plenty of reviews from the same site or magazine that I agree with, and there are also reviews that I do not. Some games are incredibly one sided, someone will either hate it or love it, and the spread between reviews will be incredibly large.

Let's say somebody paid someone for some advice, and they were receiving this advice from the person and you happened to be in the same room. At this point you have the option to stay or go, would you stay in the room and listen to the advice (the person who sold the advice would not lose a customer because you never planned on buying the advice from him), or would you leave?

Same thing with games. A developer develops games and offers them for sale. If you buy the game, then they get money. If you don't then they don't. If you were never planning on buying the game, but you pirated it, what have they lost?

Now let's say you liked the game, and you bought it, and you recommended it to your friends, the developer there has techincally made more money because you pirated it. True this scenario only works amongst people who have some decency, but it still happens. I for one do this. I have some pirated software, but these are games that I merely played because they interested me.

If I truly like a game then I buy it.

When somebody pirates your game, you technically aren't losing a thing, you're just not gaining anything, while they are.

The only problem with piracy is people trying to stop it. Especially big companies, the prices of games are jacked up because of all the anti-pirating code that they put in to stop the casual pirate, the pirate that costs them maybe 1 or 2 games a year. This code does nothing to a serious pirate. So the only people getting screwed here are the consumers, but it's more the fault of the publishers than it is the pirate's. The publishers know they can't stop piracy, but they still try at the expense of the consumer.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (guyee @ Feb. 10 2004,2:26)]When somebody pirates your game, you technically aren't losing a thing, you're just not gaining anything, while they are.
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Just for example's sake, let's say I make a game and it costs me $20 to make. I live in a town with 16 other people, half of which are interested in the game.

My selling price is $5 per game.

No piracy:
All 8 people buy the game and I earn $40 dollars, $20 profit that I can use for my next project.

Piracy:
Only 2 people buy the game and make copies for their friends, the other 6 people. I make $10 with a net loss of $10. And I lose the desire to make another game and Ken Games dies out.

This is only a very basic example, but the fundamentals are the same. By pirating software, you have it, but have not paid the creators for it. So they lose that money that they could have made. So the more people who pirate, the less money a developer makes and the less inclined or profit they'll have towards their next production.

So in essence, pirated software or movies does cause financial loss and you are technically losing out.
 
Here's another example.

I'm a salaried employee. Which means I get paid the same whether I work 30 hours or if I work 60 hours.

now my contract says that I should work 40 hours a week, with manager approved exceptions.

Is it wrong for me to only work 30 hours?

Of course it is! I told them that my hours would be 40 a week, with occasional exceptions. Even though the company does not lose any extra money when I work more or less, I'm still stealing the hours from them.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Plenty of games have demo's that are completely misleading. I have played many demos for games that were mediocre, but the game itself was amazing, the opposite is also true.
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a demo only gives u a peice of the real thing to make u want to buy it.
 
alrite, I'll throw a contraversile arguemt at you guys just because I"m in the argueing mood.

Suppose your walking down the isle of your favorite hardware store, and you see a really cool hose roller-upper. You say, "hey, that would be perfect for my backyard" So you look at the price tag, and its like $99.99. and your thinking 'thats a great idea that I would never have thought of, but thats a bogus high price. I can make one of these guys myself, no problem.' after reviewing the product on the shelf you go into the ol garage and make the same thing with some two-by-fours that you bought in the hardware store, pat yourself on the back, and put it in your backyard.

I can hear the counter argument already," but when you burn a cd, your not actually going through all the steps the developer did to make the game..." However If you think about it, thats not the point at all. You bought the blank cds, just like buying the two-by-fours. you memorized how the item was made on the shelf just like burning the cd on your hardrive, and you used your tools to form the wood into the hose roller-upper just like using your cd burning rom tool to make the pirated cd.

Soooo, is copying physical products wrong too?
-Corey
 
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