MSNBC "In God We Trust" Poll

I really don't think having the "In God We Trust" is as big as the issue of Americans REALLY trusting in God is. When it comes down to it, I really don't think God cares what our money says, He would rather us just trust in Him than print it on our money and bicker about it as a nation. The issue isn't about the separation of church and state (because the amendment is about not having a religion established by the government like, say Iran), but more the ACLU complaining about offending someone. I just think if people feel like it is overbearing and uncomfortable to have "In God We Trust" on our money, we should take it off to ease their minds, then they would be more open to God. If people are on their guard because they are forced to see/read/hear something (like the Word of God) when they don't want to hear it, it will be that much harder for it to reach them. I just think any way to bring more to Christ is the way to go, and I guess it makes sense to me. But I ramble. I'm tired :D

And Braveheart, I call shenanigans on you :P
 
Stc95 said:
Yes I do, and not because I'm a Christian, but because its our Nation's history and its not hurting anyone. Don't fix what ain't broke.
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Are you more willing to keep the motto because you're a Christian or because you care about history?

If you're honestly interested in preserving and honoring our Nation's history, then we should go back to our original motto which was adopted by our founding fathers in 1782, "E PLURIBUS UNUM", Out of One, Many. "In God We Trust" is a very recent motto, instituted in 1956. That aside, you have to look at when and why it was adopted...as a means to unite the nation against "godless communists".

Think about what Theodore Roosevelt had to say on the subject, "My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege... it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements." That was in 1907...can you imagine what he would have thought about its declaration as our national motto?
 
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Dark Virtue said:
The problem is that no one can define what a "True" Christian is. That's a logical fallacy referred to as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Christianity has a LONG history of pointing fingers (and swords) at other Christians that aren't part of their group, from its inception until today.



Thanks :)
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To be a christian is to be saved, and as Roman's 10:9 states "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." So according to that verse, in order to be saved all that you have to do is believe that God Raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus is Lord you will be saved. So in order to be a christian you must be saved, and since you are saved you have a relationship with Jesus. So I would say that to be a Christian you must have some sort of relationship with Jesus Christ. Now that relationship could extend as far as he took your sins away and now your still doing your own thing and living in sin. Or you can be living for Christ. Either way, if your a true Christian you have a relationship with Christ.

As far the whole "How do you know who's a christian?" thing goes, Mathew 7: 16-20 explains that you will know someone by their fruits..
 
I have to say that forcing one's beliefs onto another is hardly the way to evangelize. And to do so on national coinage cheapens the motto's value, if I may say so myself.

Also in this time and age of a more global community, people mixing and moving around so much, it seems to me that the best way to help your image is to appeal to everyone, not just people of a certain sect or to people of a certain belief.

(I am not talking about political correctness - i.e. Merry Christmas = Happy Holidays, or Easter's replacement name, forgot what it was. These are Christian holidays!)

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with DV on this issue. A National motto would encompass everyone, In God We Trust, does not.

This reminds me of the issue of people not swearing on the Bible in court.
 
Odale said:
Also in this time and age of a more global community, people mixing and moving around so much, it seems to me that the best way to help your image is to appeal to everyone, not just people of a certain sect or to people of a certain belief.
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Matthew 7:13 says,
13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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Sure, it sounds good to give a global motto that we can all rally behind, but if we take God out of our lives, and don't follow Him, we're just walking down the broad road.

Also, Matthew 5:11 says,
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
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The world is going to put pressure on us to change our ways, but we stand on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

This country was founded on Christian principles... I won't let the world make me change. You have to stand up for what's right, even if it's hard sometimes.
 
Durruck said:
This country was founded on Christian principles... I won't let the world make me change. You have to stand up for what's right, even if it's hard sometimes.
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There's a difference between founding by people who believed in, and followed, Christian principles and founding a Christian country.

If the United States of America was founded as a Christian country why don't we see, say, the 10 commandments in our laws? Why don't we see any of Christ's commands in our laws?

I have no problem admitting that our country was founded by Christians, but it was NOT founded as a Christian country...there's just no proof to support that. The things we see today in our country that scream CHRISTIAN are all recent additions...the motto, the pledge, currency, etc.

There is just no evidence to suggest that the founding fathers believed in, supported and worked towards a theocratic state.
 
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DV, Durruck said it was founded on Christian Principles, not founded as a Christian Country. Like you said it wasn't. If anything our forefathers wanted to get away from that, but none the less it was founded on Christian Principles.
 
I understood what he said, but I wanted to make absolutely sure to draw the distinction, because many Christians confuse the two, when in actuality, they are very different.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Why do you guys sound so surprised?

Christianity is the largest religion in the world and the United States is roughly 80% Christian.

I would have been surprised if it was anything different.

EDIT to add this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Looks like the motto wasn't added to coins until 1864, due to increased religiousity during the Civil War.

Prior to that, I can't find evidence of God on our currency. http://frbsf.org/currency/

Kinda hard to read some of those notes, but if anyone can point me to something better, I'd appreciate it.

It's also important to remember that the Christian persecution that drove the Puritans here was BY CHRISTIANS. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
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What point are you trying to make?
 
Bonk!Ow! said:
What point are you trying to make?
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Which point are you referring to? I'm making several.

First, that no one should be surprised at religious voting polls in this country when it's largely Christian.

Second, that the mottos in use today aren't the original ones.

Third, that America was founded BY Christian people, but not AS a Christian country.
 
I think it's pretty clear that it is.

But...if you want me to humor you...

The motto, "In God we trust" first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864 due to increased religious sentiment as a result of the Civil War. In 1861 Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania sent a letter to Secretary Chase which read...
Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.

One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.
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Proof enough?

As for its use as our National Motto, this is from the 50th anniversary of the motto in 2006...
On the 50th anniversary of our national motto, "In God We Trust," we reflect on these words that guide millions of Americans, recognize the blessings of the Creator, and offer our thanks for His great gift of liberty.

From its earliest days, the United States has been a Nation of faith. During the War of 1812, as the morning light revealed that the battle torn American flag still flew above Fort McHenry, Francis Scott Key penned, "And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust!'" His poem became our National Anthem, reminding generations of Americans to "Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation." On July 30, 1956, President Dwight Eisenhower signed the law officially establishing "In God We Trust" as our national motto.

Today, our country stands strong as a beacon of religious freedom. Our citizens, whatever their faith or background, worship freely and millions answer the universal call to love their neighbor and serve a cause greater than self.

As we commemorate the 50th anniversary of our national motto and remember with thanksgiving God's mercies throughout our history, we recognize a divine plan that stands above all human plans and continue to seek His will.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim July 30, 2006, as the 50th Anniversary of our National Motto, "In God We Trust." I call upon the people of the United States to observe this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-seventh day of July, in the year of our Lord two thousand six, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-first.

GEORGE W. BUSH
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Again, proof enough?

Now, if you are referring to the term, "Nature's God" which appears in the Declaration of Independence, there are arguments to be made that the title refers not to the Christian God, but to one that is more in line with Deism than that Christianity. But that's another topic altogether.
 
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Dark Virtue said:
Which point are you referring to? I'm making several.

First, that no one should be surprised at religious voting polls in this country when it's largely Christian.

Second, that the mottos in use today aren't the original ones.

Third, that America was founded BY Christian people, but not AS a Christian country.
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I'll apologize here because when I quoted you, I didn't realize that the thread was (at the time) 3 pages long instead of 1, which, for some reason, I thought it was. :o
 
But, again, there is no mention that it is the Christian God

Do you have definitive proof that God is the God of the New Testament Bible?

(I do have a point to this, but would like to see all of the evidence before moving forward)
 
Genesis1315 said:
But, again, there is no mention that it is the Christian God

Do you have definitive proof that God is the God of the New Testament Bible?

(I do have a point to this, but would like to see all of the evidence before moving forward)
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I don't know what more evidence I can show you, it's all laid out there in front of you.

If you want to suggest something else, I'm all ears.
 
All I am saying is that while many are assuming that "In God we Trust" refers to the new testament God of the Bible, there is no definitive proof of that, rather, the acknowledgment of a Supreme Being. According to several internet sites, of various religious and non-religious affiliation, atheists represent a minority in this country. So with that being said - citing the historical value and current religious demographics of the US, having such a motto does not seem out of line in the slightest as it represents the history of this country and the views of a majority of the population of the United States.

Gen

and DV - I with Marcylene was here for this thread, I am sure she has missed going back and forth with you :)
 
In God we trust lies within the clenched fist of a dying man. So shame So shame that our fore Fathers felt we could reach in such away and now before your eyes you see those very words being mercilessly taken away! Hehe even when God is put in their hands they see not! This and more are clues if you follow what is fortold! All around you'll see how thinking went from we're less than, to thinking we're equal and soon, as written a shorst burst of greater than!
wOOt, only One can lead to, and lol take away Ahahahaha pardon the pun, CHANGE!!
 
Genesis1315 said:
All I am saying is that while many are assuming that "In God we Trust" refers to the new testament God of the Bible, there is no definitive proof of that, rather, the acknowledgment of a Supreme Being.
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Actually, I DID give you definitive proof that the God in "In God we trust" refers to the God of the Bible. I do, however, agree with you on the "Supreme Being" account. The problem is you're lumping them both together as if they existed in the same time frame. They do not. The "Supreme Being" that you are referring to can be dated to the founding of the country, when many of the founding fathers had some association with Deism (as I have pointed out.) I went out of my way to show that "In God we Trust" is a RECENT addition and does NOT reflect the ideals of the founding fathers, but rather more contemporary Christian views in this country.

Again, two different subjects, two different eras.

According to several internet sites, of various religious and non-religious affiliation, atheists represent a minority in this country. So with that being said - citing the historical value and current religious demographics of the US, having such a motto does not seem out of line in the slightest as it represents the history of this country and the views of a majority of the population of the United States.
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I agree with everything you just said and, once again, went out of my way to say just that. All you did was agree with me :)

That's why I first replied to this thread...I couldn't understand why some people were shocked at the polls. As I said before, I'd be shocked if they were anything BUT what they were and I cited figures for that as well.

Gen

and DV - I with Marcylene was here for this thread, I am sure she has missed going back and forth with you :)
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Ah, the good ole days! :)
 
I agree with everything you just said and, once again, went out of my way to say just that. All you did was agree with me
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Ack we agree on something LOL

Sorry I missed it before. Quite frankly, I am surprised I was able to put this together as well as I did given the sleep deprived state I am in. My 2 month old daughter enjoys eating at 4:00am :)
 
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