Newcomers are hurt by no DKP!

A

Asheriah

New Member
I have a question regarding the non dkp for 25 man naxx. For all the people that have been able to save up dkp over the last couple months this rule is no big deal to them. Matter of fact it is a good thing, but for all those that have recently started raiding in the last 3 weeks, it seems like this will cripple us.

If priority goes to those that have the most dkp, and we (the newer raiders) can now only earn dkp from 3 bosses. How does this even give us a chance to get any loot?
 
Its called rolling. No DKP earned, no DKP spent. I have a million DKP, you have Zero, I roll a 3 your roll a 4, you win.

Next, the bosses that have DKP earned and DKP spent are bosses we have down only a few times. The loot has not dropped on a fair distribution curve yet. I haven't gotten my 7.5 helm. Is there is a reason why I, who have been to every raid on KT for the last few months see the one item I'm looking for go to somebody who is there on the first time because they rolled a 4 and I rolled a 3.

Thirdly, loot on bosses that have not dropped at all or not on a fair distribution curve. There are a few people, fewer then you can count on one hand, that have not had the items that are best for their class drop at all. To tell them they now have to roll against people who show up sparatically or are on their first run is unfair, especially when they have been there since we started raiding?

--edit--

As for new area's like Uldar, you are not taking into account the loot rules. There may well be two druids in a uldar raid. You and a druid with 50 more dkp then you. The loot rules very specifically state you only get one item per run. So the first drop may go to the other druid, the next druid drop goes to you.

--second edit--

Lets take a look at how things will work for real newcomers, like say if Laraptor was to turn 80 this week and start raiding Naxx25 on this tuesday coming up. I am the only priest that shows up to raids over 95% of the time. I have all my gear from Naxx25 with the exception of my 7.5 helm. I'm not rolling against her for all the gear that she needs, because I already have it. So the fact I have 58 dkp is pointless. And then when we are on KT, and it drops the 7.5 helm token, I get it. Oh, Laraptor just got 5 pieces throughout the raid and I got one and I had more DKP then her. I really don't see how newcomers are hurt in the slightest. Actually, they benefit.
 
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I was not trying to stir bad emotions. I was referring to a couple things that I was starting to notice. Sorry if I did.
 
If you noticed something, be specific in how it is working. Leaving out specific examples will not help either pin point problems not previously thought of, or help the raid leaders solve them. Which is why I have examples of how things are expected to work in numerous cases. You said you are starting to notice things...such as what? Just don't say there is a problem and leave us hanging.
 
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conversely, no DKP hurts people that have it too...particularly on items that drop once in a blue moon from bosses.

I have a billion DKP. You have 0.

I roll a 3, you roll a 4.

I lose.

It's even.

QED
 
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Asheriah said:
I was not trying to stir bad emotions. I was referring to a couple things that I was starting to notice. Sorry if I did.
Click to expand...

There is no bad emotion, you are trying to argue a topic that has been poured over and over... If you have noticed something I'm all ears.

Or if you think it is unfair, I'll assure you that we have allot of people in this guild that are Class Leads, Raid Leaders and Officers that have seen allot of DKP and raiding, we are making the best steps to keep things fair... Trust me when I say this, our form of loot is more of a hinderance to people that raid more often then people that just started raiding or people that don't raid allot.

Just ask Blu how well he did last night when he's only raided once with us in the expansion.
 
Oh, my mistake. well like i said before, people who have a bunch of dkp its a good thing. For same reasons you stated above. and i agree from that stand point. But for those that dont have much. I started to wonder on this future rolling, if i roll a 98, and someone has more dkp than me they get it. Dont get me wrong, if i had been waiting for a long time to get one piece and it dropped i would want it badly too. But from the point of view from the person who just rolled a 98 that sucks!
 
I am sorry guys, i think i have not worded things right. I dont want to be misunderstood.

I agree fully that if someone has saved up dkp for certain items they have earned the right to spend the dkp and receive it.

But what i was trying to get across is during the roll process, the people with dkp that wants that item, should say right away i want that item. If the rolls have gone off and they dont say anything, they the person with dkp should not be allowed to get the item.

If they say they want it before the rolls start , they should have top priority for that item.

So this was my concern, I hope this makes me a little more clear. and am sorry if i came off the wrong way.
 
Asheriah said:
I am sorry guys, i think i have not worded things right. I dont want to be misunderstood.

I agree fully that if someone has saved up dkp for certain items they have earned the right to spend the dkp and receive it.

But what i was trying to get across is during the roll process, the people with dkp that wants that item, should say right away i want that item. If the rolls have gone off and they dont say anything, they the person with dkp should not be allowed to get the item.

If they say they want it before the rolls start , they should have top priority for that item.

So this was my concern, I hope this makes me a little more clear. and am sorry if i came off the wrong way.
Click to expand...

Ok I see what you are saying... We'll take a look at this. I'd hope that people would have more value than the people you are discribing.

Truely there are only a few items that this should fall into... Like Naz has yet to get his chest, that is one. But if at anytime a raid leader feels that this is being abused we would talk privatly to said person.
 
I agree that intentions need to be made known before any roll. Maybe we need a list of people who are looking for items and evaluate each case by case as class\raid leaders. Keep the list short of what items and who gets priority. Naz and his chest are one, I think there are one or two feral tank drops that have not dropped for Refuge. Beyond that, there can't be much more.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about the loot rules being unfair to newcomers. In general, the rules seem more likely to hurt regular attenders than to hurt newcomers. I have personally experienced this, and I know I'm not alone there.

The other upside for newcomers in removing the DKP from Naxx is that now you can go after any offset items you may want. The oldtimers (and epicsrevenge, who went DKP crazy in his first week raiding) have had to spend DKP on any offset pieces that they might want, but the newer raiders can safely go after anything they want without having to worry about losing the DKP associated with that item. In many cases, the newer raiders will start out going down in DKP, not up. Removing DKP could mean that you don't get items in some cases, but it seems more likely that it just saves you from going in the hole.
 
thats a good point about going into the hole, especially only getting 1-2 dkp per boss instead of the zero sum system we used to use back in MC. You go in relatively new and theres a chance you could get 2-3 items easily that no one else needs and if you have to spend DKP on them it could be a month before you ever get anything else unless its more stuff that no one else needs and is gonna get DE'ed heh
 
I think the biggest threat to the no DKP rule is people abusing the offset rule. That is an item drops for their main set, nobody else wants it, so they roll for it as offset. Then that doesn't count against their one main set item, or passing when they win a roll so that they can have another chance at a main set later in the instance. I think people who do that are just up and up greedy.
 
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That is a good point. Perhaps it would be a good idea for people to state WHY an item is for offset if it isn't obvious why it doesn't apply to your main set. There is no reason to check why a prot paladin is rolling offset on a healer or DPS piece, but if the prot paladin is trying to roll offset on a tank piece that is kind of weird. At that point the only way it would be truly for offset would have to be if there were something specific about the item that makes it usefulness situational. Another example of situational offset would be a hunter collecting 1h and 2h weapons (samboe did this tonight on the dagger from Sapph). Hunters don't really have offsets, but they do have different ways of gearing themselves.
 
Also: in the case of tier piece tokens, there are quite a few slots where the tier piece is either inferior to my current, or actually *is* what I'm using, in my main set, but the healer version would be an upgrade for that set.
 
I have gotten a lot of stuff the last few raids i have been on.

Mordos is very correct when he says that this system is best for those who are new. Yeah I may have to wait awhile to get a dkp drop if if someone else wants it, but i would have gotten so much other stuff in the mean time.

Meanwhile i get to addup my dkp while not getting anything and then it will be my turn to get any loot i want... all in all...


My name is Blu, and i approve this system.
 
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