Pros of an Atheist?

[Levite]

I find this topic really interesting. Well, what are the Pros of being an atheist?

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I would imagine having to follow less rules would be a plus.

Some people feel they wouldn't be intellectually honest if they ascribed to a religion, and have an easier time looking themselves in the mirror.

I'm sure there are others that DV and Eon will tell you about, since they know firsthand.

 

[Avesther]

I don't know about the less rules bit.

Lets say you find two islands. On one Island, only the rules and commandments of the bible rule the land, and on the other Island, only the rules\laws\constitution of the USA ruled the land, which Island would have less laws\rules to follow?


I think the biggest pro of being an atheist is the fact you place who you are accountable into a person or ideology you have the ability to change. If you place your personal accountability to society, if there is something in society you don't like, you can take steps to change it. But, in Christianity, you are accountable to a higher power that is unchangable.

 

[Marcylene]

Because I am a Christian, I know better than the statement I am about to make; there are laws that are Biblical that are in effect, rather we believe or not. That being said, I would say that if I were an atheist I would ascribe to the thought "If it feels good, do it"! Essentially doing everything my own way!
I would like to hear what the atheist point of view is on the cons of being atheist are, also.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sounds like you guys are doing a good job of answering on your own

I must wholeheartedly disagree with Marcy's on the "if it feels good, do it" comment. For the same reason I disagree with wildbill's theory of less rules to follow. Why? The Golden Rule. Treat others and you would have them treat you. And no, the Golden Rule wasn't posited first in the Bible, there was a recent thread on this where I proved that wasn't so. How many wars have been waged over religious "morality"?

I think the single, greatest pro is not being a slave to religious dogma. By not being burdened by religious tenets, one avoids all the complications that arise. How do I know my god exists? Is my religion correct? Why are there other religions? Why are other religions wrong? et al. Being a freethinker is a HUGE pro.

Atheists aren't dependant on a divine being for anything, thus, everything must be done BY US, which leads to a greater sense of responsibility. True power lies within US.

The ideals that atheists adopt are based on REASON. By doing so, we maintain intellectual and personal integrity.

Intellectual honestly is another big pro. My beliefs are based on logic, reason, evidence and proof. There are no atheist apologetics because there is no need.

I am very interested in WHY this question has been asked. When I made a conscious decision to be an atheist, I didn't weigh the advantages or disadvantages of my choice. I made the choice because it was RIGHT and let the chips fall where they may.

Are there cons? Sure. You are in the minority. Your outlook on life is often mistunderstood. Theists feel sorry for you. The term "atheist" carries a negative connotation. Theists seem to try harder to convert you. Religious discussions are difficult because theists always have the trump card to get out of any situation: Faith. Yadda yadda yadda.

Hope that helps.

 

[Levite]

I think the single, greatest pro is not being a slave to religious dogma. By not being burdened by religious tenets, one avoids all the complications that arise. How do I know my god exists? Is my religion correct? Why are there other religions? Why are other religions wrong? et al. Being a freethinker is a HUGE pro.

The ideals that atheists adopt are based on REASON. By doing so, we maintain intellectual and personal integrity.

Intellectual honestly is another big pro. My beliefs are based on logic, reason, evidence and proof. There are no atheist apologetics because there is no need.

Hope that helps.

1. I am not bound my religious dogma or a salve are whatever you said. The number one thing i hate about todays "Christianity" is that we are so ingrained into traditional Chistianity. That mark taiwne quote really hit home to me. If Jesus would come down to this earth would he claim to be a christian. I really believe that now day christians have gone so far away from the truth that it would be a whole repeat of the jews and that in the end we would kill Jesus. So i believe in my personal realtionship with Christ not any traditions my relationship with Christ is the same as a relationship with anyone else.

2. DV i have experienced many things and i have seen many things. There are many stories that i can tell you but you would never believe me. God has proven himself to me so many times. In the fact that he reconstruced my sisters complety broken jaw overnight. The holy spirit is another. I can tell you this DV that a great majority of christians have never experinced the holy spirit or have no clue what it is. DV i can speak in a language and i dont even know what im saying. DV theres faith in me for God to heal others through me. So am i intellectually stupid i have experinced God with all of my senses. So i too base my beliefes on logic, reason, evidence, and proof. DV you said you tried out Christianity, but know this i tried out Christianity too and came up with the same conclusions you did. I didnt quit though, i explored every avenue and I found Christ. The Christian religion might as be the wall that so many fakes use as a barrier. Theres a different kind of chistian and that is one who follows christ. Not catholicsm, babtist, etc...One that follows Christ. DV put my name on a piece of paper because the Lord is telling me Hes not finished with you yet.

 

[Marcylene]

...there was a recent thread on this where I proved that wasn't so.

WHO TOLD HIM HE PROVED ANYTHING?

By not being burdened by religious tenets, one avoids all the complications that arise. How do I know my god exists? Is my religion correct? Why are there other religions? Why are other religions wrong? et al. Being a freethinker is a HUGE pro.

The truth actually gives the Christian freedom in Christ! Knowing what to believe is as near as your Bible.

Atheists aren't dependent on a divine being for anything, thus, everything must be done BY US, which leads to a greater sense of responsibility. True power lies within US.

I cannot imagine wanting the power within me over The One who promises that if I open my mouth He will fill it; The One who will show me great and mighty things; The One who will work all out for my ultimate good...

The ideals that atheists adopt are based on REASON. By doing so, we maintain intellectual and personal integrity.

A Christian's reasoning skills are very much alive and well, thank you very much! While we do have intellect and integrity, we can depend on the very definition of intellect and integrity.

Intellectual honestly is another big pro. My beliefs are based on logic, reason, evidence and proof.

Proof? You cannot prove that He does not exist. Quite the contrary! To say that He does not is to make Him a liar...but He cannot lie! I believe Christians can also claim logic, reason, evidence, and proof!

There are no atheist apologetics because there is no need.

Please! They have almost taken over the Internet! I have to swim through atheist links when googling to get the the Christian information I need!

Are there cons? Sure. You are in the minority. Your outlook on life is often mistunderstood. Theists feel sorry for you. The term "atheist" carries a negative connotation. Theists seem to try harder to convert you. Religious discussions are difficult because theists always have the trump card to get out of any situation: Faith.

Strange how much you have in common with theists! You simply choose to have faith that He does not exist! In addition, I would like to mention you are the first to tell us that we have no proof, only faith!

 

[Azzie]

There is proof in faith. But first, you're gonna hafta have that faith.

O wait sorry, that's against intellectual integrity.
/doh
(Azzie bonks himself on the noggin. Doh!)

About wars being fought on religious morality, lets look at something...1st, Jewish conquest of Canaan. 2nd, Crusades, 3rd, Inquisitions, 4th, disunified sects. These four are just to name a few mistakes of religion.
Ok, then there's Hitler. There's Stalin. There's Mao Zedong. There's "weak" atheism, "strong" atheism, and agnosticism. These four things are just to name a few mistakes of--wait, there are no mistakes in atheism because of "intellectual and personal integrity."
/doh
(Azzie bonks himself on the noggin. Doh!)

 

[Marcylene]

Very, very, very good one, Azzie!

I would like to hear DV's exact definition of intellectual integrity. I am thinking this is an intellectual, political integrated way of calling us idiots!

 

[Dark Virtue]

1. I am not bound my religious dogma or a salve are whatever you said. The number one thing i hate about todays "Christianity" is that we are so ingrained into traditional Chistianity. That mark taiwne quote really hit home to me. If Jesus would come down to this earth would he claim to be a christian. I really believe that now day christians have gone so far away from the truth that it would be a whole repeat of the jews and that in the end we would kill Jesus. So i believe in my personal realtionship with Christ not any traditions my relationship with Christ is the same as a relationship with anyone else.

You ARE bound by religious dogma. Why do you believe that you are not? Do you not follow codes and tenets set forth by Christ? You may want to look up the definition for dogma.

2. DV i have experienced many things and i have seen many things. There are many stories that i can tell you but you would never believe me. God has proven himself to me so many times. In the fact that he reconstruced my sisters complety broken jaw overnight. The holy spirit is another. I can tell you this DV that a great majority of christians have never experinced the holy spirit or have no clue what it is. DV i can speak in a language and i dont even know what im saying. DV theres faith in me for God to heal others through me. So am i intellectually stupid i have experinced God with all of my senses. So i too base my beliefes on logic, reason, evidence, and proof. DV you said you tried out Christianity, but know this i tried out Christianity too and came up with the same conclusions you did. I didnt quit though, i explored every avenue and I found Christ. The Christian religion might as be the wall that so many fakes use as a barrier. Theres a different kind of chistian and that is one who follows christ. Not catholicsm, babtist, etc...One that follows Christ. DV put my name on a piece of paper because the Lord is telling me Hes not finished with you yet.

If God wants ALL men to follow him then why does he give some evidence of his existence and not others? That's basically what you are saying.

 

[Dark Virtue]

There is proof in faith. But first, you're gonna hafta have that faith.

O wait sorry, that's against intellectual integrity.
/doh
(Azzie bonks himself on the noggin. Doh!)

About wars being fought on religious morality, lets look at something...1st, Jewish conquest of Canaan. 2nd, Crusades, 3rd, Inquisitions, 4th, disunified sects. These four are just to name a few mistakes of religion.
Ok, then there's Hitler. There's Stalin. There's Mao Zedong. There's "weak" atheism, "strong" atheism, and agnosticism. These four things are just to name a few mistakes of--wait, there are no mistakes in atheism because of "intellectual and personal integrity."
/doh
(Azzie bonks himself on the noggin. Doh!)

Thanks for that shining example of holier than thouness

You know you could have gone ON AND ON to present day with examples of religious persecution and wars. Interesting that you stopped your examples CENTURIES ago.

I don't believe I ever said anything about perfection, now did I?

And why are you lumping Hitler in with the atheists? Put him in the Christian column where he belongs.

You said there is proof in faith, but in order to have that proof, you need to have faith. Wipe the sarcasm from your eyes for a second and you will see WHY it's not intellectually honest, it's called a logical fallacy. Specifically, a circular argument akin to petitio principi.

 

[Levite]

I am not bound by any religious dogma i dont hold myself to any sets of rules but those i choose to follow and lay down. DV Christ is alive and i follow him. DV theres true chirstians out there people who forsake their relgious titles choosing Christ instead. God gave his greatest evidence by sending christ to die? God doesnt "want" all men to follow him he Desires them to. Why would anyone die for an entire human race. God gave us minds to think and to live we arent intellectually bound to anything. DV if you ask God in selfishness show me yourself but become ignorantly blind to all of the other signs he has shown what good is it to ask? Why should God show himself to you DV why do you even care that he should? Answer this question

 

[Azzie]

Wow, that was an excellent counter, DV! Kinda blunt in style, but good.

"Atheists aren't dependant on a divine being for anything, thus, everything must be done BY US, which leads to a greater sense of responsibility. True power lies within US."
This is primarily our difference, I'd say. Atheists seem to think they have it all together and can last for themselves without help. Christians believe humans (including themselves) are in need for a solution to death and sin, and decide to turn to God. That's probably core in all these debates we're having.
One believes humans are good, one does not.

"he ideals that atheists adopt are based on REASON. By doing so, we maintain intellectual and personal integrity."
By thinking in "if a=b and b=c, then a=c"? Sure that's a good thing. But is that really what determines "integrity"? Who or what makes that call?

"Intellectual honestly is another big pro. My beliefs are based on logic, reason, evidence and proof. There are no atheist apologetics because there is no need."
And our beliefs are not based on logic, reason, evidence and proof because we can't describe God? Who defines what is logical?

"Holier than thou"...True that. We DO look like that A LOT.
That's due to poor presentation like what i just posted above We're not trying to say we're holier than atheists. We're just trying to say God is holier than all of us. A major factor in looking like "holier than thou" seems to be because of the core difference i mentioned above. We saying that humans are fallen is an insult to one who believes humans are not.

I'll admit Hitler was a bad example, but putting him in the Christian column is saying Nazism and Christianity are hand in hand, which is totally off (It's more like Nazism grabbed Christianity as a weapon and started hitting people with it). Let's leave him as a Nazi which more or less a religion on its own.

About the circular reasoning...I understand your point, but once again, my wording messes things up. I said "there is proof in faith" but didnt mean "THE proof is in faith." I meant "SOME proof is in faith.". Some of it is in history and eyewitnesses of miracles. And some of it comes after having faith. See what I'm getting at? Some evidence is physical, while some of it is in faith. To see the whole picture, one would have to have both in order to see how the physical and spiritual evidence fits together. For us, because we have seen how they do fit, find it extremely logical. Seriously, all human brains (Including that of the Christian) reason similarly, which is why we managed to debate so long even with such core differences in beliefs.

 

[Azzie]

O sorry i didnt mean to cut into Levite's question...doh.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I am not bound by any religious dogma i dont hold myself to any sets of rules but those i choose to follow and lay down. DV Christ is alive and i follow him. DV theres true chirstians out there people who forsake their relgious titles choosing Christ instead. God gave his greatest evidence by sending christ to die? God doesnt "want" all men to follow him he Desires them to. Why would anyone die for an entire human race. God gave us minds to think and to live we arent intellectually bound to anything.

Didn't Christ set forth a code of tenets to follow? Didn't Christ follow the doctrines set forth by God? If so, and you follow Christ's example, then you are indeed, bound by a religious dogma, just as Christ was.

If God intended you to use the rational mind he gave you, then why would he set his entire existence on FAITH?

DV if you ask God in selfishness show me yourself but become ignorantly blind to all of the other signs he has shown what good is it to ask? Why should God show himself to you DV why do you even care that he should? Answer this question

I DID ask God in selflessness to show himself to me. I was a Christian at one time, remember? I recieved no answer, no evidence of his existence.

Do I care at this time? No, I don't. Why should I care about somethign that I don't believe is true? That's like asking me if I would be sad if Santa didn't bring me gifts on Christmas.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Wow, that was an excellent counter, DV! Kinda blunt in style, but good.

Sorry, sometimes I'm as sharp as a rock

This is primarily our difference, I'd say. Atheists seem to think they have it all together and can last for themselves without help. Christians believe humans (including themselves) are in need for a solution to death and sin, and decide to turn to God. That's probably core in all these debates we're having.
One believes humans are good, one does not.

Hmm, I wouldn't say that atheists think that humans have it "all together". Humanity isn't perfect, we are full of flaws, I don't discount that.

I think that you've touched upon the core of why humanity created gods. To answer questions that couldn't be answered and to ease the suffering in the world, to give man hope beyond this mortal existence.

By thinking in "if a=b and b=c, then a=c"? Sure that's a good thing. But is that really what determines "integrity"? Who or what makes that call?

Man does. And by extension, society and culture.

And our beliefs are not based on logic, reason, evidence and proof because we can't describe God? Who defines what is logical?

Christians, and theists in general, do NOT base their beliefs on logic or reason. I would think that's pretty evident just be reading the threads in this forum. Christian beliefs were doled out by a being that can't be justified without faith.

What defines what is logical? Logic. The grey matter that sits between our ears. It's not perfect, but it's all we've got.

"Holier than thou"...True that. We DO look like that A LOT.
That's due to poor presentation like what i just posted above We're not trying to say we're holier than atheists. We're just trying to say God is holier than all of us. A major factor in looking like "holier than thou" seems to be because of the core difference i mentioned above. We saying that humans are fallen is an insult to one who believes humans are not.

Maybe TODAY, in our "kinder, gentler" society. There was a time though, that Christians made no bones about being better than everyone else.

You're right though, it pains me to no end to hear people like Marcy say that they are wretches who deserve God's anger. We are NOT wretches, we are NOT scum. I hate that attitude with my very core.

I'll admit Hitler was a bad example, but putting him in the Christian column is saying Nazism and Christianity are hand in hand, which is totally off (It's more like Nazism grabbed Christianity as a weapon and started hitting people with it). Let's leave him as a Nazi which more or less a religion on its own.

AGREED!

About the circular reasoning...I understand your point, but once again, my wording messes things up. I said "there is proof in faith" but didnt mean "THE proof is in faith." I meant "SOME proof is in faith.". Some of it is in history and eyewitnesses of miracles. And some of it comes after having faith. See what I'm getting at? Some evidence is physical, while some of it is in faith. To see the whole picture, one would have to have both in order to see how the physical and spiritual evidence fits together. For us, because we have seen how they do fit, find it extremely logical. Seriously, all human brains (Including that of the Christian) reason similarly, which is why we managed to debate so long even with such core differences in beliefs.

I'm going to have to stick by my guns on this one. Circular reason is used time and time again by Christians as "proof" for one thing or another.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Very, very, very good one, Azzie!

I would like to hear DV's exact definition of intellectual integrity. I am thinking this is an intellectual, political integrated way of calling us idiots!

If I wanted to call you an idiot, I would.

I wouldn't think intellectual integrity would need to be defined.

Why don't you tell me what YOU think it means.

 

[Azzie]

"There was a time though, that Christians made no bones about being better than everyone else" -By DV

Oh absolutely. That's why i really hate calling myself one when asked. Although I'd say a lot of that was because of how integrated religion was with politics back in day. Rulers used the phrase "chosen by the gods" to secure their rule in society. In the same way, the Christian world used the phrase "it is the will of God" to do all sorts of nasty things. Like the analogy I used about Hitler, i'd say a lot these things are people grabbing Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) as a weapon and hitting people with it.

Anyway, I think another part of the core difference is the idea that Christians think everyone else is IN NEED. That makes Christians not only seem insulting but also intrusive. Well, but in the Christian perspective, they're just trying to help....although from other perspectives, it's often something else.

In fact, I'm gonna do something "drastic". From now on, I'm no longer going to post on this forum as a Christian. Not to say my beliefs are different or that I'm no longer a Christian now, but I'm switching sides in the debates.

"I'm going to have to stick by my guns on this one. Circular reason is used time and time again by Christians as "proof" for one thing or another."
- Again, that's absolutely true. My rationale for still being a Christian is that I have faith that even though Christianity is logically contradictory, God knows that and made us that way for a reason (i dunno what it is; but hey, logic cant solve everything.) Basically, in life and society i function like an atheist and think like one, following the golden rule and acting in accordance to general well-being (kind of like Confucianism), while in regards to afterlife and spiritual matters, I have faith in Christianity.

My definition of Intellectual Integrity: Doing our best with the ability of our minds. I feel it's a sin to do otherwise.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

DV, you mention Free Thought as a "HUGE plus". What about people like Josh McDowell, whose free thought led them to the conclusion that Jesus was exactly who He said He was as laid out in the Bible? What would you say to him?

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV, you mention Free Thought as a "HUGE plus". What about people like Josh McDowell, whose free thought led them to the conclusion that Jesus was exactly who He said He was as laid out in the Bible? What would you say to him?

Are you referring to Josh McDowell's, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"?

Sheesh, I'm not exactly sure where to start. There are many, many problems with McDowell's stance that I don't believe are intellectually honest, no matter how much he believes his heart is in the right place.

I'd be more than willing to offer you a critique of his works, but it's already been done, countless times, by people more educated than me.

If you honestly want an answer to this question, I suggest doing a search on www.infidels.com. If you don't want to go that route, I'd start a new thread, because it will most certainly derail this one.