Question for Didasko

[[toj.cc]phantom]

So basically Didasko your saying that even if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and live your life like a Christian should God will still send you to Hell? Now I'm not saying that God doesn't know if a person is going to go to Heaven or Hell, He knows everything that has, will and is happening. Just because God knows everything that is going to happen doesn't mean he makes it happen. For example God created Lucifer and made him the most beautiful of all angles (in fact he was basically the leader of the angles). Well, God also gave him freewill. God didn't make Lucifer rebel he allowed him to, so basically God didn't condemn Lucifer to Hell but Lucifer did it to himself. The one verse that really closes the deal for me is;

REV 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Bowser]

Actually, there's an interesting twist about why God created Satan and what his purpose is. Of course it's all theory, but it's an interesting study.

 

[Dark Virtue]

For those that are unfamiliar with the term, let me clarify.

Predestination is defined as "Unconditional Election. This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not. " (from : http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm)

 

[Eon]

As an exciting and fun twist on the concept of Predestination, for a long time it was believed that if you were saved then you were saved, and if you were damned then you were damned - and nothing you did or believed would change that.

In other words, your fate was predetermined and your actions counted for little.

 

[Icthus]

Nice classic Calvinist defination of predestination. Unfortunately or fortunately the actually greek language is not so clear cut. The greek wording can actually mean more along the lines of predefined. In other words, if something is a bird with white feathers and a beak, it has two webbed feet and it can float and fly, it quacks and waddles then it is a duck. Thereby a duck is predetermined. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Thereby, the arguement follows that God predetermined what was required to be a Child of God. If a person meets the qualifactions of a Child of God set out by God, himself, then that person is a Child of God.

A little different look at predestination. I am sure I did not explain it very well. I am at work and a little distracted. I hope you get the concept.

 

[Didasko]

So basically Didasko your saying that even if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and live your life like a Christian should God will still send you to Hell?

No that is not what I am say. We need to be very careful here. What I am saying is that God predestined those who would become Christians. If a person truely accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then they were predestined to do so.

It is my belief that noone can accept Jesus as Lord and Savior without some help from God. God opens our eyes to the truth. Without God's intervention none of us have what it takes to be a Christian.

Does God decide not to choose some? In my belief yes. Are there definite examples of this in the Bible? Yes!

Now many take this to the extreme of saying, 'Then what use is it to witness? If predestination is true then God will save whom God will save whether we do anything or not.'

I do not subscribe to that belief at all. God commanded us to witness to others. Even though I believe that only God's elect will be save, that does not prevent me from wanting to be as much a part of it as possible.

Am I needed by God to save his elect? No! God does, however, often use His people to accomplish His goals and desires. We as Christians should count it a blessing to be used in God's plan. If we have truely accepted Christ as our Savior, then we should have a burning desire to do his will.

I'll end with this.

If it was God's plan for everyone to be saved...wouldn't they be? Nothing can stop God's will. None of us deserve salvation. It is graceous of God to allow anyone at all into heaven. So to say that God is not a loving God because he doesn't save everyone is false. God is a loving God because he chooses to save some of us wretched and filthy people.

 

[Eon]

That was a great description of predestination.

Unfortunately we metaphorically find ourselves in a Turkey farm that also breeds quails and then rejects them for being undersized Turkeys. Although you might offer the Quails as much food as the Turkeys, they're never going to be as big as a Turkey, are they? And why blame the Quail?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Didasko, I'm afraid you're talking in circles.

How can God be a loving God, omnibenevolent as it were, and predestine people to not become Christians (and thereby condemning them to hell)?

Can you think you're a Christian but be on God's list of those not destined to be a Christian? You said, "Even though I believe that only God's elect will be save, that does not prevent me from wanting to be as much a part of it as possible." Does that mean that even though you live your life as a Christian, you may still not be saved, predestined as one of God's chosen elect?

How do you know on which side of God's coin you've landed on?

 

[Didasko]

Didasko, I'm afraid you're talking in circles.

How can God be a loving God, omnibenevolent as it were, and predestine people to not become Christians (and thereby condemning them to hell)?

As I have said before I am more amazed that God has seen fit to save some of us than I am that he did not save all of us. I can see how this would bother you though from your side of the fiece.

Can you think you're a Christian but be on God's list of those not destined to be a Christian? You said, "Even though I believe that only God's elect will be save, that does not prevent me from wanting to be as much a part of it as possible." Does that mean that even though you live your life as a Christian, you may still not be saved, predestined as one of God's chosen elect?

You obviously took what I said out of context there. I did not in any way question whether or not I am save. I KNOW that I am saved. What I was obviously saying there was that I want to take part in God's plan. He often uses us to accomplish his will.

How do you know on which side of God's coin you've landed on?

Any Christian can be assured of their faith. God let's us know through the Holy Spirit that we are saved. I have no doubts that I am saved.

(DV's next question...How do you know it's the Holy Spirit?)

Did I get it right DV?...lol

 

[Dark Virtue]

As I have said before I am more amazed that God has seen fit to save some of us than I am that he did not save all of us. I can see how this would bother you though from your side of the fiece.

Trust me, I'm amazed too. God supposedly created ALL of us didn't he? Not a PORTION of us. (BTW, do you know how many lucky winners were predestined to heaven?)

You obviously took what I said out of context there. I did not in any way question whether or not I am save. I KNOW that I am saved. What I was obviously saying there was that I want to take part in God's plan. He often uses us to accomplish his will.

How do you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Any Christian can be assured of their faith. God let's us know through the Holy Spirit that we are saved. I have no doubts that I am saved.

So those homosexual Christians are assured of their faith because they have no doubts they are saved, right? Hitler is assured of his faith because he believed he was saved, right? Those Puritans that murdered "witches" in the name of God are assured of their faith because they believed they were doing God's work. You see where I am going here? Just because you have no doubts that you are saved doesn't mean you are saved, does it? Or are you saying that all you need is to believe and you're in like Flynn?

(DV's next question...How do you know it's the Holy Spirit?)

Did I get it right DV?...lol

Not quite, but don't you think it's a valid question? This is why I brought up the question about communication with God and how it happens.

 

[Didasko]

Trust me, I'm amazed too. God supposedly created ALL of us didn't he? Not a PORTION of us. (BTW, do you know how many lucky winners were predestined to heaven?)

Yes to the first question...no idea to the second

How do you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Already answered that one.

So those homosexual Christians are assured of their faith because they have no doubts they are saved, right? Hitler is assured of his faith because he believed he was saved, right? Those Puritans that murdered "witches" in the name of God are assured of their faith because they believed they were doing God's work. You see where I am going here? Just because you have no doubts that you are saved doesn't mean you are saved, does it? Or are you saying that all you need is to believe and you're in like Flynn?

lol...As I have said many times already...many nonchristians claim to be Christians. (Here comes that works word again) We know them by their works. The homosexual issue as it applies here I have already addressed. As for Hitler...uumm...kinda abvious their. As we know from history, the witch burnings were out of control and foolish. Many of them are speculated to have been people accusing their enemies or people they did not like or that got in their way of being witches. These examples have nothing to do with assurance of faith. These people showed by their works where their heart truely is.

Can a homosexual be assured of their faith? Yes! But if they are a Christian then over time they will give up their sinful lifestyle.

Could some of the witch burners been assured of their faith? Yes! But they would have had to be repentant of their sin of murder. Even murder is forgiveable by God DV.

Could Hitler have been a Christian? Who knows what happened in the last moments of his life? But if we throw out the possibility of a last minute conversion, then no Hitler was not. A lot of people claim Christianity as their reason for doing things, but their fruits tell the real story. How do you know Hitler thought he was assured of his faith?

Not quite, but don't you think it's a valid question? This is why I brought up the question about communication with God and how it happens.

Do you believe in anything to do with the spirit world DV? The answer to this question may help in how I answer your question.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I don't believe in anything that can't be proven.

To do so would be logically inconsistent.

With enough evidence, we can propose theories that are subject to change with new evidence and proof.

I don't have enough evidence, proof or reason to believe in a spiritual world.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in ghosts.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in spirits.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in the loch ness monster.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in gods.

Back to Predestination...if God is omnibenevolent and omniscient, why would he create beings that he would knowingly condemn to hell? How is that showing compassion on a godly scale?

One of the problems I have with Christianity is in its many wildly different interpretations of a supposedly concrete set of laws set forth by God.

 

[Didasko]

I don't believe in anything that can't be proven.

To do so would be logically inconsistent.

With enough evidence, we can propose theories that are subject to change with new evidence and proof.

I don't have enough evidence, proof or reason to believe in a spiritual world.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in ghosts.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in spirits.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in the loch ness monster.

I don't have enough evidence to believe in gods.

Back to Predestination...if God is omnibenevolent and omniscient, why would he create beings that he would knowingly condemn to hell? How is that showing compassion on a godly scale?

One of the problems I have with Christianity is in its many wildly different interpretations of a supposedly concrete set of laws set forth by God.

Exactly the answer I expected from you on Spirits...just wanted to make sure (I have ascribed beliefs to you in the past that were incorrect ie. big bang, and didn't want to do that again).

The Bible tells us to test the spirit...but you don't believe in spirits so to you they are a figment of my imagination.

I don't know why God didn't make us all little robots that do everything the same exactly according to his law. I know that some people (Pharoah...Saul..etc) have been used to set an example. As for others, I don't know God's plan for everyone or His reasons for doing it.

There are many different denominations in the Church. They have minor differences on points that do not effect salvation. However, if a church is wildly different on the main issues of salvation then they are not part of the Church.

 

[Gandhi]

There are many different denominations in the Church. They have minor differences on points that do not effect salvation. However, if a church is wildly different on the main issues of salvation then they are not part of the Church.

Seems like high school where the popular kids get to pick who's in and who's out.

 

[Didasko]

There are many different denominations in the Church. They have minor differences on points that do not effect salvation. However, if a church is wildly different on the main issues of salvation then they are not part of the Church.

Seems like high school where the popular kids get to pick who's in and who's out.

LOL

 

[Dark Virtue]

Exactly the answer I expected from you on Spirits...just wanted to make sure (I have ascribed beliefs to you in the past that were incorrect ie. big bang, and didn't want to do that again).

Thanks

The Bible tells us to test the spirit...but you don't believe in spirits so to you they are a figment of my imagination.

I would be more than happy to test the spirit, I'll do so right now! Oh...wait, you can't test the supernatural can you?

How would you propose to test the untestable?

I don't know why God didn't make us all little robots that do everything the same exactly according to his law.

Why is it that people always bring up robots or automatons? You are TOTALLY missing the point. I never suggested that God create beings that would automatically follow any law he could devise. I questioned why God created a set of laws knowing full well they couldn't be followed by his fallible creation. Why not just skip to the NT laws instead of condemning millions of people knowing full well the bar was set way too high? How is that an example of omniscience?

I know that some people (Pharoah...Saul..etc) have been used to set an example. As for others, I don't know God's plan for everyone or His reasons for doing it.

No, but you can make educated, logical assumptions, can't you?

There are many different denominations in the Church. They have minor differences on points that do not effect salvation. However, if a church is wildly different on the main issues of salvation then they are not part of the Church.

Why not? If they use the bible to base their teachings on, however different they are, why are they not part of the church? How can you, a fallible human, decide who is part of the church and who isn't? Are Catholics part of the Church? Protestants? Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons?

 

[Dark Virtue]

There are many different denominations in the Church. They have minor differences on points that do not effect salvation. However, if a church is wildly different on the main issues of salvation then they are not part of the Church.

Seems like high school where the popular kids get to pick who's in and who's out.

Unfortunately, it's the more powerful who decide who's right and who isn't, and any dissenters are murdered in the name of God.

See Constantine and the Council of Nicea as an example.

 

[Eon]

Although almost every religion has its examples of this.