Question for Leo

[Medjai]

Leo, you often say you find the protestants immoral and disgusting (paraphrased).

Now, is it not so that Christianity in general (including Catholocism) is merely a protestant break-up from Judiasm?

Further, you once told me that faith is not required to enter the gates of heaven, only obedience... why doesn't God require faith? Many Christian religions have the polar opposite view from this idea you have presented me, they feel that one's actions are not the means for entering heaven and that all that is required is faith. How do you justify your view over theirs?

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Oct. 11 2003,9:13)]Leo, you often say you find the protestants immoral and disgusting (paraphrased).

Now, is it not so that Christianity in general (including Catholocism) is merely a protestant break-up from Judiasm?

Further, you once told me that faith is not required to enter the gates of heaven, only obedience... why doesn't God require faith? Many Christian religions have the polar opposite view from this idea you have presented me, they feel that one's actions are not the means for entering heaven and that all that is required is faith. How do you justify your view over theirs?

Wow! Great Question!

Hi Medjai!

Why didn't you ever tell me about this place?

Wow! I just wrote a paper on that very topic -- along the lines of "Paul the Great Schizmatic" -- that Paul directly and in his influence has caused every rupture that has ever transpired in the Church, INCLUDING THE FIRST which everyone overlooks, except you and myself, apparently. Paul institutionalized within the Catholic Church an actually tone and policy of Anti-Semitism which eventually overthrew what had been the Central Pillar of the Apostolic Church -- the Church at Jerusalem.

I am presently running my paper through editarial rewrites but will eventually distribute it World Wide into every Diocese and Office of the Catholic Church, advocating the withdraw of Paul's Canonization (the Church got rid of St. George, so it can get rid of Paul) and that all of Paul's Epistles be made anathema! Then, that The Church formally Apologize to the Judaic Heirs of the Promise of Abraham and offer the Caretaking of the Catholic Sacraments to them, and that the next Pope be Jewish.

Have any more ideas?

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 11 2003,10:30)]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Oct. 11 2003,9:13)]Leo, you often say you find the protestants immoral and disgusting (paraphrased).

Now, is it not so that Christianity in general (including Catholocism) is merely a protestant break-up from Judiasm?

Further, you once told me that faith is not required to enter the gates of heaven, only obedience... why doesn't God require faith? Many Christian religions have the polar opposite view from this idea you have presented me, they feel that one's actions are not the means for entering heaven and that all that is required is faith. How do you justify your view over theirs?

Wow! Great Question!

Hi Medjai!

Why didn't you ever tell me about this place?

Wow! I just wrote a paper on that very topic -- along the lines of "Paul the Great Schizmatic" -- that Paul directly and in his influence has caused every rupture that has ever transpired in the Church, INCLUDING THE FIRST which everyone overlooks, except you and myself, apparently. Paul institutionalized within the Catholic Church an actually tone and policy of Anti-Semitism which eventually overthrew what had been the Central Pillar of the Apostolic Church -- the Church at Jerusalem.

I am presently running my paper through editarial rewrites but will eventually distribute it World Wide into every Diocese and Office of the Catholic Church, advocating the withdraw of Paul's Canonization (the Church got rid of St. George, so it can get rid of Paul) and that all of Paul's Epistles be made anathema! Then, that The Church formally Apologize to the Judaic Heirs of the Promise of Abraham and offer the Caretaking of the Catholic Sacraments to them, and that the next Pope be Jewish.

Have any more ideas?

Wow! I can't wait to read that! If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to read that.

I thought you were kidding whenever you mentioned trying to influence the Church - the WHOLE CHURCH - but, wow, that's actually pretty cool!

 

[Guest]

Dear Timor,

Sure!

The Paper should be finished in a few days -- if I don't dawdle too long here and the other Pages.

Also, I think I should wait until after Oct 13th to send out the Paper, officially. With the Pope in ill health, if he is going to die soon he would die on October 13th, the anniversary of "The Miracle of the Sun" from Fatima. You know, when the Pope was shot back in '81 he almost died and Our Lady of the Rosary (Our Lady of Fatima) is purported to have appeared to him and gave him a Time Table and Schedule that he was to keep. Certain things had to be done, and that is why he was given his life back. Those things must have been completed, no? It makes one wonder what will happen next.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 11 2003,10:41)]Dear Timor,

Sure!

The Paper should be finished in a few days -- if I don't dawdle too long here and the other Pages.

Also, I think I should wait until after Oct 13th to send out the Paper, officially. With the Pope in ill health, if he is going to die soon he would die on October 13th, the anniversary of "The Miracle of the Sun" from Fatima. You know, when the Pope was shot back in '81 he almost died and Our Lady of the Rosary (Our Lady of Fatima) is purported to have appeared to him and gave him a Time Table and Schedule that he was to keep. Certain things had to be done, and that is why he was given his life back. Those things must have been completed, no? It makes one wonder what will happen next.

Never heard that before. I'll tell you what though, it would be *very* startling if he did happen to die on that date. If that's true, if he lived in NJ he'd have about 26 more hours, minimum. Seriously, that would startle me if he died. Coincidence? *shrug*

btw, a bit off topic, but is there a reason Mary is called "Our Lady of __" for every place she appears? (not being sarcastic)

 

[Guest]

Dear timor,

Every Appearance of Apparition is called "Our Lady of ..." simply, I suppose, from Convention.

It does pose an interesting Metaphysical Question, though. Is each "Our Lady" a distinct "Our Lady"? Well, no. We are taught by Our Lady of All Nations to pray a prayer, which in one part says "May the Lady of All Nations, who once was Mary...". All the "Our Ladies" originate in the same Mary -- Mary Queen of Heaven the Mother of God. But I think it could be pictured like a Huge Vine or Trunk of a Tree out of which come the separate Branches. Remember, we are talking of Spiritual things. in the Physical World we can't be in more than two places at the same time, but in the Spiritual World -- it may admit to being different places at once, and even with different personas. It is as though I could split in two and one of me stay in this chair, and the other 'me' take a big cross out to main street and yell all day long "Repent! The End is Near". And hit my bare back with a little scourge once in awhile for effect. Well, soon each separate persona, though originally 'me' would gather to it a set of distinch impressions and experiences. they would always have an affinity to one another, but one would have a clever vocabulary and the other would develop a prophetic glare strong enough to kill a fly.

 

[timor]

Interesting, so we have something similar to the Trinity going on with Mary?

edit ----> Sorry to have hijacked this thread, btw.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 11 2003,10:11)]Interesting, so we have something similar to the Trinity going on with Mary?

edit ----> Sorry to have hijacked this thread, btw.

never thought of it that way, but, since you mention it...

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 11 2003,11:26)]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 11 2003,10:11)]Interesting, so we have something similar to the Trinity going on with Mary?

edit ----> Sorry to have hijacked this thread, btw.

never thought of it that way, but, since you mention it...

that also raises the question of whether Mary can achieve omnipresence - how many times can she divide herself up

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Hmm. I wouldn't mind checking out that paper if you wouldn't mind. When it's ready, if you wouldn't mind PMing me the article?

Mary Queen of Heaven. So there's a royal lineage into Heaven? Who would be the King? Joseph? Joseph is hardly mentioned in the Bible save being the father of Jesus, of obeying the angelic command of God to take Mary as his wife, to hide out in certain places until danger was passed, and after that, no more.

Again I have this weird question: what if Mary ISN'T going to be in heaven? What if she said "Screw God" and went off and did her own thing? I mean heck, she could be the freaking Whore of Babylon!
All conjecture, of course, but so, I suppose, is the Queen of Heaven title...

Also raises the question of nonsense v. sense, Timor...

And Leo, I have this bizarre question, what makes you say obedience=salvation? Did Christ say that? Is it Biblical? Or canonical? Or Apocryphal? And canons are, I'll remind ye, man-made and man-established...

Another weird question: Jews hate Jesus Christ, FYI, so why would any self-respecting Jew want to be seen as the leader of an organization that absolutely glorifies Him?

 

[Medjai]

Ultima, Jews don't 'hate' Jesus, they just don't see him as the savior. I think that Leo's proposal to mend wounds with Catholics and Jews is a rather noble idea. He is even asking his church to essentially admit they were wrong on an issue, which most religious people will not do.

Leo, you asked me if I had any other ideas about your submission of the essay you wrote. I would say that you should probably consider getting it published, this way you will have a foothold.

I am sure you will agree that some people high up in the Catholic church are in fact corrupt and won't want this discovery of yours to get out, if you are unlucky or have done something wrong that you have yet to pay pennance for (which means God might foil your plans as punishment). Other than that I am rather unfamiliar with the means towards getting one's ideas known to an entire church. Good luck with your endeavour though.

By the way, a Jewish Pope is hillarious! Thanks for the great laugh man, you never fail to put a smile on my face, yet at other times you can disgust me. It's quite a unique combination really.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Disgust? How? He's done, what, eleven posts on this site? Do you know him from elsewhere?

I know how he'll be able to get it across. Walk up to the Vatican and nail his theses to the doorways.
Yeahhh.
True. Bad use of terms. Not all Jews hate Jesus. Several do. In fact I read several accounts of Jews from the Crusades...not nice views of the Christians and their God, and especially of Mary. I mean, "heretic" and "false prophet" for Jesus were nice enough, but, geez, "menstruating whore" was one term for the Mary lady, which, I guessed, was their answer for how the virgin birth came about...I guess.
Now their views of the Christians, I can understand, b/c the Christians acted wrongly completely. Really. But you can blame the bishop of Spain for that. But their phrasology for Christ and Mary? Classy.

Matter of fact, the Christian cross is anti-Semitic. It's a freaking pagan icon. I would guess either because it's something from another culture they've been mechanized to detest, or it's because of the Romans and their pleasant way of executing Jews in their own land.
So in fact, all crosses would have to be undone in the Vatican if we got a true Jew for a pope...

 

[Medjai]

Ultima, consider what was happening during those times. They hated the Catholics because of the happenings of those times, thus their general spite for the icons of that religion is understandable, just as one who hates one football team is apt to bedraggle the star player on that team.

I know Leo from Infidelguy.com and Atheistnetwork.com and some of his posts were crude and unruly, while others were amazingly funny and still others showing a high level of intellectual capability. His jokes are usually well hidden and so only a few spot them, sometimes he will say something that seems crude but in reality he is just joking.

 

[Medjai]

I just thought of something, when Leo said a Jewish Pope he could have meant a Pope of Jewish lineage (the race not the religion).

Just a thought.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

...so is he an old man really, or is he a young guy who was using figurative speech? Is he a Catholic or is he an infidel? Gah!

And I'm not so sure if that argument would stand up against Judaism. Their time period said God led them out of Egypt and parted the Red Sea and all sorts of pretty miracles, like bread and birds and snakes from heaven and faults arbitrarily opening up. I'm pretty certain if some man came and said God didn't lead the Hebrews out of Egypt and those miracles didn't happen, but they just thought so thanks to the time period, he would be met with some Sanhedric frowns.

 

[Medjai]

Leo, the reason I didn't tell you about this site is because I thought you were already here! I was under the suspicion that you were adelpit, I guess that my assumption was premature.

 

[Medjai]

Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Oct. 11 2003,11:44)]...so is he an old man really, or is he a young guy who was using figurative speech? Is he a Catholic or is he an infidel? Gah!

I assure you, he is a Catholic. He was banned from an Atheist board. I used to suspect that Leo was someone trying to make religious people look bad but after 3,000 plus posts and a year of continuous and consistent portrayals by him it has become obvious that he is being sincere when he claims to be a Catholic (though unconventional).

As for the second part of your post, was that addressed to me? I wasn't talking about that, I was merely justifying the belittlement of Mary and Jesus by the Jews during the time period which you mentioned.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Yah the second part was, it was just I'm thinking if it's time periods that determine it...you would think by now, since the Crusades have been over for some six hundred+ years, the Jews would be more open to Jesus Christ as God.
Nope. Heresy to this day. That's all.
An unconventional Catholic. That's the term I was searching for. Haheh!

 

[Medjai]

No, I am not saying they didn't believe he was the savior for those reasons! I am merely saying why they belittled him!

Sorry for the confusion.

"the Jews would be more open to Jesus Christ as God."

Why would they be? Even if the crusades of those times didn't occur I would say they still would disagree on the idea that Jesus is God. Though many Jews do believe he was a prophet of God, so this would show that they don't hate him.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Okay thanks for the clear-up. The whole 600 years+ thing was following your logic of time periods. My bad. Yah, homage they pay him...but so do the Muslims, and if ANYONE hates each other worse than death, it's Jews and Muslims.
Okay gotta jet so can't finish this. Ciao.
Despite American sympathizers and revisionism, Islam and Judeo-Christianity are polar opposites. No references from the Koran and the Bible that go at each other's throats on hand, but maybe if it has a point tomorrow, I'll post 'em. Just know that there exist in the two irreparable contradictions that annull any bullcrap wool American news media tries to pull over the world's eyes.