Questions on this passage

ursen

Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
This is not to start a flaming war, nor is it necessarialy for baby Christians just learning to walk, it is just something I ran across and have been mulling over yet again. I will in the course of this discussion post the passage in two versions, maybe three for those who prefer King James.
1 Corinthians 11:2-16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Instructions about Head Coverings
2 Now I praise you[a] because you always remember me and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman,[b] and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since that is one and the same as having her head shaved. 6 So if a woman’s head[c] is not covered, her hair should be cut off. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should be covered.

7 A man, in fact, should not cover his head, because he is God’s imageand glory, but woman is man’s glory. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man. 9 And man was not created for woman, but woman for man. 10 This is why a woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, and man is not independent of woman. 12 For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman, and all things come from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her[d] as a covering. 16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, we have no other[e] custom, nor do the churches of God.
We have churches in my area who are adamant about women covering their heads during church services, the only difference is in type of covering. Also of course the Amish and Mennonite in most sects require head coverings for women. We also have Pentecostal who ask that women never cut their hair, which has, in this area, created a term for a Pentecostal hairdo which is half joking, half serious, The Pentecostal Pile Up. Where do you individually stand on this passage and why?

1 Corinthians 11:2-16 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Proper Worship
2 I praise you for being faithful in remembering me. I also praise you for staying true to the teachings of the past. You have stayed true to them, just as I gave them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ. The head of the woman is the man. And the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame on his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered brings shame on her head. It is the same as having her head shaved. 6 What if a woman does not cover her head? She might as well have her hair cut off. But it is shameful for her to cut her hair or shave her head. So she should cover her head.

7 A man should not cover his head. He is the likeness and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. 8 Man did not come from woman. Woman came from man. 9 Also, man was not created for woman. Woman was created for man. 10 That’s why a woman should have authority over her own head. She should have this because of the angels. 11 But here is how things are for those who belong to the Lord. Woman is not independent of man. And man is not independent of woman. 12 Woman came from man, and man is born from woman. But everything comes from God.

13 You be the judge. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God without covering her head? 14 Suppose a man has long hair. Doesn’t the very nature of things teach you that it is shameful? 15 And suppose a woman has long hair. Doesn’t the very nature of things teach you that it is her glory? Long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to argue about this, we don’t have any other practice. And God’s churches don’t either.
1 Corinthians 11:2-16 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
These three versions should cover all peoples abilities and preferences. I also realize that this starts playing into woman's role in the church, let's try to stay out of that topic for now. Why? Because for some that is a real hot topic, especially for some Baptist denominations. To repeat myself I DO NOT want a flaming war, I want honest, clear, mature Christian discussion.
 

Dchsknight

Tribe of Judah Minecraft Community Manager
Well I think for this passage one must understand the context.

These two books deal heavily with behavior in the church and construction of a church. You must first understand where this church is. This church is in Corinth. Do you know what Corinth was? it was the center of sex in the old world, this is because of its industrial and oil ports nearby. People from all over the world came to Corinth. Corinth was so bad that they had temples given to sex and prostitution when people would just go have sex with any gender for any reason for a price.

One of the big deals about the head covering in this church is that some of these believers where in fact ex-prostitutes and temple whores. Who then became believers and turned from their old debauchery life styles. This then lead to rash of people who came into the church who, while now believers had no idea how to behave rightly. Now this is not a passage on that you have to behave a certain way to be come a christian but quite the opposite, these two books where written on how to behave once the grace of God was on you.

You also have to understand that not all books of the bible apply to all people at all times. There are certain parts that simply do not apply. That does no invalidate the bible or passage but just does not apply. For example I am not a pastor in leadership of a church, now while they might be good advice and general good notes on behavior but the pastoral commands do not apply to me. Neither does the Elder/deacon passages. That does not mean those passages are invalid, they just dont apply.

SO that all said to say this.

Head coverings are neither here nor there. Does your church want women to wear head coverings? GREAT! let them. Does your church not require them? great, who cares. Personally, do I make my wife wear a head covering? no not at all.


I think this part of the passage should stand as an answer to anyone about head coverings...

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her[d] as a covering. 16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, we have no other[e] custom, nor do the churches of God.


Notice the bold...

Paul states that we should judge for ourselves. Head coverings come from the old jewish practice. We are not under that covenant we are under a new one. He also states that the church and the apostles have no other falling back on to go to.

So in my opinion...

Should the church in general force head coverings? No, Paul specifically states for us to judge for ourselves. If a church so desires to request their women to wear them, they can. but I do not think it is right or biblical for them to force it. it is a preference and has 0 impact on Salvation, Justification, and Sanctification.

and I also think it is silly for anyone to fight over it as well.

BTW, I go to a fundamental independent baptist church.
 

ursen

Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
Thank you for the input, it echos some of my own study and ideas. My comment on women and their roles in the church is in reference to some (by no means all)Baptist churches is because I didn't want to go there. I have an independent Baptist friend who is adamant on the fact that women should have no leadership roles in the church. I really didn't want to go there, because with a few other churches in my area it sometimes turns into a sore point. I really, really want to be at peace with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen my friend use parts of this passage to "prove" that women should be submissive and be quiet in church. Now 'nuf on that.
 

ursen

Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
This thread went where I did not want it to go. So lets just return to original question on head coverings and agree to disagree on the other topic. We are brothers in Christ and should be able to have differences without forgetting about the love of Christ which binds us together in one body.
 

Dchsknight

Tribe of Judah Minecraft Community Manager
I understand where you coming from Ursen. I really do, but take my signature to heart.

Hugh Latimer did say that, and he was burned at the stake for his beliefs.

One of the things we must as Christians understand is that the word of God is the word of God whether we like it or not. So the bible might say things we don't like. We already know that. The world bucks and fights against the word of God every day. We see it with the acceptance of things God says is an abomination and with countless other failings of human nature.

You say you did not want to go there on the subject of women pastors, but you did go there, not me you. This seems to be the drive and semi veiled topic of this thread as you bring it up, more than once.

"My comment on women and their roles in the church is in reference to some (by no means all)Baptist churches is because I didn't want to go there. I have an independent Baptist friend who is adamant on the fact that women should have no leadership roles in the church. I really didn't want to go there, because with a few other churches in my area it sometimes turns into a sore point. I really, really want to be at peace with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen my friend use parts of this passage to "prove" that women should be submissive and be quiet in church. Now 'nuf on that."

This whole statement is going there. And it is clear what your stance is. And your stance is wrong. Now we can fight and argue all we want but in the end the word of God stands on its own with or without us. God laid down the foundation for his Church, note not your church or my church, but his church, long before any of us had the notion to question it. And what God says stands for all time until Jesus returns.

I will not seek unity with the body of Christ especially when some calls out for unity and then so blatantly goes against the word of God. It is also not degrading or sexist think that what God says should happen in his church is what we should enforce.

Now you may take from this post that I am unloving and harsh. But the truth is if we are brothers in Christ we have a duty to each other to hold each other accountable for what the word of God says. "As iron sharpens iron." Now if you have scriptural backing as to why I am wrong, then lets hear it and discuss it and work together, strive together to see what the word of God says. But feelings and ideas have no place in these kind of conversations. Only the word of God matters. And the word of God says no women pastors. end of story. And any woman who is a pastor is living in sin, it just that simple. We also can not take the stance that God did mean what he siad because in later books and chapters he lays down guide lines as to who can be a pastor. Being a man is one of the requirements...

You yourself said "To repeat myself I DO NOT want a flaming war, I want honest, clear, mature Christian discussion." So lets do that. I know I can. The issue at hand seems to be, can you?
 

Tek7@Work

CGA President, Tribe of Judah Founder & President
@Dchsknight made some excellent points regarding the historical context for Paul's instructions regarding head coverings for women in the church in Corinth.

Regarding the wider discussion of offices prescribed for women in the Christian church, I believe @ursen made his desires regarding the discussion clear. If he wishes to limit the topic to head coverings, I ask that we respect that wish.

@Dchsknight Would you object to creating a separate thread for the topic of roles available to women in a Christian church? ursen can then choose whether to participate or not and you can delve in to the topic along with others who wish to join the conversation.
 

Tek7

CGA President, Tribe of Judah Founder & President
Staff member
Absolutely! I will make it right away!
Thank you! We can continue the discussion on roles available to women in the Christian church in the new thread.

@ursen Would you prefer I close this thread or leave it open?
 

ursen

Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
Still curious on where people stand on the passage about head covering. Although we derailed pretty good. Leave it open for another week then lock it.
 

Icthus

Active Member
Personally, and for brevity, head covering is usually seen contextually as an authority over seeing her. IE- a husband or father. However, these particular passage to me seems to really fit into the context of that city at that time. I do not see other Scriptures in the OT or NT demanding a woman to cover her head when speaking where a man did not need to have his covered.

You would also for the sake of being complete need to talk about makeup and jewelry which are also forbidden by Paul. Yet, we see those having little bearing on us today. One should be careful not to elevate Paul over the rest of Scripture.
 

Wolfeman

Member
I think a reading of the KJB makes it a little clearer. God has a natural order for things and best practice is to avoid straying from that order.

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

However, if it's going to cause problems, let it go for now, teach the Word and let the Holy Spirit do the work.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
 

kaufenpreis

New Member
These two books deal heavily with behavior in the church and construction of a church. You must first understand where this church is. This church is in Corinth. Do you know what Corinth was? it was the center of sex in the old world, this is because of its industrial and oil ports nearby. People from all over the world came to Corinth. Corinth was so bad that they had temples given to sex and prostitution when people would just go have sex with any gender for any reason for a price.
 
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