Raiding Improvement?

Bringeroflight

Bringeroflight

New Member
Suggestion 1: I was thinking last night about raiding and how to improve a few things for those that don't get into raids due to lack of available spots. For those people, there is no way for them to earn DKP because they aren't in the raid. My suggestion is that we give people, that are there and available at the call of WL Add and don't make it into the raid, some DKP for showing up. (btw, i was encouraged to speak-up and share ideas with the guild. You know who you are ;) )

Thoughts?

Another issue that i've seen is that those that are well geared continue to stack DKP and will get whatever item they wish to 'want/roll' on and the less geared people with much lower DKP will have a very long wait to get drops. I know that we base gear distribution off of how much DKP a person has, then it could come to a roll off. I think we need to consider the level of upgrade it would be. We have a lot of very knowledgeable people in our guild that can help determine who would benefit from the gear more. This would help equal out the playing field to build up Redeemed raiding.

Suggestion 2: How about everyone in the current raid starts with the same predetermined pool of DKP at the beginning of each raid? Then as the night progresses and gear is distributed, the dkp of each recieving raider will be deducted from their pool. Then every remaining raider that didn't get some gear will be on equal footing with everyone else and it will probably come down to a roll or which is a greater upgrade for the raider. We really shouldn't have an issue in our guild with "the rich get richer, and the poor stay poor", right?

Well, Just some thoughts to bat around on trying to improve our process of raiding and help out everyone that wants to raid. I encourage everyone to bring forth their ideas to help improve our raiding format.

You are all a bunch of awesome people and I pray blessings upon you all.
 
The DKP issue is one of inflation. It's easily fixed by making the very good items cost more than they currently do OR give less DKP for bosses that are on farm (like 1 dkp instead of 2).
 
As for suggestion 1, the raid leaders are currently aware of this and hopefully in the near future a standby dkp will be given, as for the current system, Fierce is also aware of this, and please understand that it is quite a process to fix the system, so please be patient =D
 
I think standby DKP is a good thing - it has to be well thought out.

The main reason why there is a net push upwards in the current DKP system is because the system is starting to reward significantly more DKP then is being taken out. But it likely started out that way anyway.

For example: Currently every raid boss awards 2 dkp to each person. Thus downing a boss pumps 50 dkp (2dkp/person x 25 people) into the system. How much is normally taken out of the system?. Assuming 3 items for 10 dkp each, only 30 DKP per boss is removed. That leaves 20DKP inflation in the system. Some of the dkp inflation is take out when the orbs are purchased, but not all of it. Every boss essentially nets 20dkp inflation in the system so after 10 boss kills the system is over valued by 200 points less orb purchases. I'm sure more then 10 bosses have been downed so the system could be sitting on a residual value amounting into the thousands.

After awhile though, you stop giving out items because people already have those drops. So the system begins to give out even less dkp. So if a boss awards 50dkp into the system but only 1 item is taken that boss nets 40dkp inflation into the system.

The net inflation (in Redeemeds situation the net inflation is defined as the value of the DKP rewarded into the system less the cost of the items bought less the cost of the orbs) in the system is not really spendable. Logically, in the current system you can not purchases something without having first put more into it. If I go on a raid and want to get a drop, we first have to drop a boss and dump an addition 50 dkp into the system so I can take another 10 out. So the system value is always going up with unspendable DKP.

Mordos dealt with this problem two ways: First was decay. It is not perfect because it does not reduce 100% of all the unspendable DKP but it does reduce it. Secondly, he stopped awarding DKP on farm bosses. If the boss is not giving DKP, then when you purchase an item with DKP, you are purchasing it with DKP that is already in the system that would've normally have been unspendable. Even if it is the persons first run and earns no DKP from the kill, his negative dkp value of 10 for taking the item represent a devaluing of the entire system by 10. (If there is 1000 unspendable dkp in the system, the -10 brings that value of the system down to 990).
 
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Hey Mattiah,

We actually have some suggestions like this in another thread. Basically stating give dkp for people on time ready to raid.

I even went one further in suggesting that people online and waiting to go should get dkp for bosses that the raid downs as long as they stay online and ready to replace someone leaving. If nobody leaves, they still get the dkp for what the raid did that night.

I'll try to talk with the RL's and see what we can come up with. These are good ideas. Thank you for your thoughts and input. This is the kind of stuff we need to hear to help improve things.

p.s. Thanks Avesther. Yea I forgot those links were in the other forum



Cassadine
 
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This is excellent discussion. It helps me understand the 'behind the scenes' action that takes place. Aves, that was a great explanation of the current system faults.

I wonder if a sliding scale could be implemented for those that only need a few items from our current raid schedule. Therefore, people that are new to raiding would get a larger DKP cut than those that only need Trophy's and such.

Thank you all for taking the time to explain. Awesome!
 
Year of Jubilee!! Reset all DKP to zero! woot!

*runs back under rock*
 
I did talk with Mcfierce on this briefly. He did say he has been contemplating altering or changing the dkp system altogether because of this. Give us a little time and we'll see what he has in mind. I'll have one of us try to keep us posted on what ideas that come up.
 
The system was working great before wasn't it? Why don't we just go back to doing it the same way? Mcfierce has changed it a lot.
 
I want to say to that some of this DKP stuff can be overcome by Class leads becoming more involved. I would like to see classes talking in their own respective channels about what item will benefit which guy the most and so on. I would challenge each class leader to start looking at their peers gear and talking with them to set priorities on what needs to be upgraded first.

Our DKP system is not perfect, I know we have many casual players that raid and we do need to make the system as fair as possible for them. We can not forget however the players that show up night after night and are the ones that make us successful. Consistent raiders must be rewarded. I have experience both sides being casual and playing hard core. When I am a casual player I understand I eat scraps from the table of the raiding machine. When there night after night I expect to reap the fruit from my labor. As raid leaders our challenge is to find that balance. I dont think our system is that far off. Maybe some minor adjustments can be made.
 
Player #1 spends 10 dkp on a trophy in a toc25 run. By the end of the run he has earned that 10dkp back (or more if the raid leaders give out bonuses for fast kills etc.) If you look the top 10 people on the dkp chart haven't changed in a long time and have multiple trophies. These are the same people who get into every raid because of their gear, therefore are getting more dkp, and the cycle continues. Decay helps but the inflation is bad. Making the bosses one dkp again would help or doing the decay weekly instead of monthly. Ii would be great to see casual people get gear and invites more often.
 
One of the things that I do is pass on the trophys. If I have the amount of badges I need to immediately get the piece of gear, then I go ahead and put in for the trophy. This gives other raiders below me on dkp a chance at it and I'm not hording a trophy in my bag while I working on getting enough badges to use. Raiders should consider "is this a true upgrade" also.
 
There is too much DKP in the system and alot of the DKP that is going into the system is not always available to everybody in the guild.

10 man dkp should not be part of the equation or it should be separated completely from 25 man dkp. Currently, people who don't get into a 10 man run (if 15 people sign up and only 10 get in, 5 don't get in) don't earn any DKP. Also, if you get unlucky and are placed in a group that has no viable chance at successfully completing DKP content, you are again left out of the pool. The people that get into the good group get all this dkp and pass those who don't get into the 10 mans or are stuck in the less viable groups on loot priority on 25 man gear.

Seeing as I don't use the system, I see myself as a 3 party non-biased person. I can not be charged with looking to manipulate the system to my own advantage or to the disadvantage to any group (I derive no benefit or disadvantage if it stays the same or it changes). And from my vantage, the blending of 10 man and 25 man dkp is a serious flaw that needs to be addressed.
 
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A DKP system can't be fixed by talking with class leads. It's an issue of math that makes the system unbalanced. Granted some people are taking items that are not the "best" for them but it's their dkp. The fact that they are willing to spend it on less than optimal items just further illustrates the DKP imbalance. Of course in an ideal world there would always be someone in the raid for which the item would be perfect.

Like Aves said there is inflation in the system because of the increased DKP given per boss and the relative low prices of items in comparison to that. For instance in Naxx the system was more balanced (at least in 25 man). We were given 1 dkp per boss (25 into the system total), and items cost 4-14. The average item price was about 6 points. If we assume that 4 items dropped off each boss that leaves about 3% inflation per boss (less than 1 point). For the current system to be balanced the prices would have to be double what they were in Naxx. Also, every time we give an extra point to the raid that adds an additional 25 to inflation.

These numbers would need to be adjusted for 10 man. Since there are only 10 people in the raid there is much less dkp being given out. If we assume that 3 items drop from each boss in 10 man each item should cost about 3 points less than the 25 man version.

As far as standby DKP, we could give out half dkp for bosses that are downed and the standby person is available.
 
I'm a total noob to this, so just let me know if this is crazy. This would involve decimals and a lot more math - but what if there is no set amount of DKP for each boss?

The DKP would be based on the loot that drops. If four items drop worth 8 DKP each, that's 32 total DKP that dropped. The 32 DKP that dropped could be divided among the raid members, and each raid member would get 1.28 DKP. This would remove exactly the same amount of DKP as is put in. DKP would be rounded to two decimal places to eliminate excessive math.

So basically the boss is only worth what it drops - right now we hand out more points than the loot system says the boss is worth.

Would this solve any problems, or just cause more?
 
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