I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks that God is calling for the church as a whole into a reformation in order to complete a new work in this generation? I've been praying and seeking God on this issue to to where I live a lack of spiritual growth the the churches in my are(it may only be for my area but wondering if anyone else is hearing the same) do to pastors that run the church like its communist Russia. only preaching opinion and politics over the gospel and refuse to let the Holy Spirit lead anything in the church. example my bro is a youth pastor in a baptist church in Missouri and the pastor won't even allow him to take time to pray and worship in the sanctuary outside of services bc of money yet they have over 100,000 in the bank. they refuse to help people out in the community along with 90% of the churches in my area. they fight with each other trying to steal members from each others church, refuse to work with each other and try to out due the other in stuff. example one church got a new projector and computer then my bros church bought an even more expensive set up to compete with the other. I feel like God is gonna push these pastors and mentalitys out of the church in order for the lost to find a place of true worship where they can experience the love of the Living God. does anyone else feel this coming too?
Reformation
- Thread starter legitnoob
- Start date
ursen
Officer SOE/LoE/Where's "here"?
Having been around for a while, and living through the Jesus Movement, also being a graduate of Asbury College where the Great Revival of 1970 occurred, I wouldn't despair, God always comes through in the right time at the right place. Is He going to do a reformation? It depends on what you mean by reformation, and how God will act in His time. I know that many mainline denominations have been going through a rough time of split between liberal and evangelical parts within the church (note little c). I left the Methodist church over 20 years ago because the battle was so intense, and at the Lord's leading joined The Salvation Army. Did I expect the Salvation Army to be perfect? No, but I was able to serve God more effectively there, and able to find services and programs that helped me to raise my growing children in a Godly manner. Instead of watching and waiting for a reformation and/or a revival, serve where God leads you to be, and pray for revival in your own life first. The Church, glorious and eternal, will survive all of the schisms and problems, God will make her a fit bride for Christ, all you have to do is serve in your little corner.
Pheonix28
Slave to Christ.
legitnoob,
Reformation may not be the best word to use here, but I understand what you're saying. I believe that this generation will change things up. I believe that there is a demand for more "real" Christians and fewer christians. We are all one body in Christ, and infighting is not from God.
What I would suggest is to pray for what God has in store for you. Pray for those churches, those pastors, those congregations. Prayer is more powerful than anything the enemy can do.
Reformation may not be the best word to use here, but I understand what you're saying. I believe that this generation will change things up. I believe that there is a demand for more "real" Christians and fewer christians. We are all one body in Christ, and infighting is not from God.
What I would suggest is to pray for what God has in store for you. Pray for those churches, those pastors, those congregations. Prayer is more powerful than anything the enemy can do.
Kahiel
Active Member
After rereading your OP I agree with Pheonix (I was a bit confused). What I think you are talking about is revival not reformation. Reformation was when Godly men were forced to split from a church corrupted by worldly concerns (selling of indulgences for instance)(also note there has been several reformations within the Roman Catholic church in response to the Protestant movements). I was talking with my lead pastor about his last week. We both beleive that the U.S. is overdue for a major revival (maybe evening another Great Awakening). In the U.S. there has been about a 20 year cycle between revival movements, the last being in the Jesus movement of the late '70s early '80. Yes there are new trends within the U.S. church, but nothing that has transformed the Christian landscape like in the past. As for international revival I must confess that my knowledge is limited. From the missionaries I have spoken to, it is apparent that the Spirit is working in a mighty way in the global South and particularly in Asia.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
No offense, but I'm not sure there's any plan for "fewer" Christians.
Pheonix28
Slave to Christ.
Neirai there is a difference between "Christian" and "christian". Many people claim to be "christian" while doing nothing more than praying a prayer or saying some words.
This however, would completely derail this topic, so I will leave it at that.
This however, would completely derail this topic, so I will leave it at that.
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To a degree I agree with the others that the bigger thing here is revival. However, reformation may fit as well. Here's why. The Reformation of the 16th century was not intended to be a split from the Roman Catholic church, it was intended to fix the problems within the church. In the circumstances mentioned above, I think reformation is fitting. It seems those churches, and many others that I know, are focusing on worldly things (who has the best projector, the most members, or the biggest bank account). There are all too many churches today where this is a major problem. We are developing into a "post-Christian" society, the same direction that Europe has been going for decades. Basically what is happening is that people have been leaving the church over the hypocrisy and lack of substance. And yet, pastors and churches keep everything shallow with the hopes of attracting new people.
On a positive note, this is not the problem everywhere. I am currently pastoring a small church in one of the least churched part of the country, south-eastern Massachusetts (http://cities.barna.org/americas-most-and-least-bible-minded-cities-2/. Four of the evangelical churches here (mine included), despite denominational differences, work together. We do joint outreach in a part of town where there are almost no Christians. When someone attends one of our churches and they do not fit well, we recommend another good church in the area for them to go to.
I agree with Ursen, don't wait for the revival/reformation. Use the gifts God has given where you are, and wherever God leads you, to build up the church. And as Phoenix said, pray. Revival and reformation start with prayer.
On a positive note, this is not the problem everywhere. I am currently pastoring a small church in one of the least churched part of the country, south-eastern Massachusetts (http://cities.barna.org/americas-most-and-least-bible-minded-cities-2/. Four of the evangelical churches here (mine included), despite denominational differences, work together. We do joint outreach in a part of town where there are almost no Christians. When someone attends one of our churches and they do not fit well, we recommend another good church in the area for them to go to.
I agree with Ursen, don't wait for the revival/reformation. Use the gifts God has given where you are, and wherever God leads you, to build up the church. And as Phoenix said, pray. Revival and reformation start with prayer.
Ok lol sorry for not being more specific in why I am asking this question. But my intentions were to find like minded individuals that is sharing the same thing in there heart. In order to pray and also see how God is moving in your areas. But revival is a good start but I've been feeling a reformation of the church in general away from the traditions and religious rituals. It's gonna be amazing to see a church operate in the Holy Spirit and see the church of Acts arise across the world.
Patriot
Active Member
I doubt reformation would be appropriate. The reason the catholic church can go through reformation is because it is a single organization with a top down hierarchy. However, protestants do not answer to a single human authority. Trying to work reformation through the protestant community would have to be done through each separate denomination and then each independent church. While not necessarily 'impossible' I tend to see revival as a much more viable thing.
That being said, I know of a large number of solid bible-teaching churches in my general vicinity. I don't know if that is merely a local phenomenon or not. Could be that the large number of terrible churches is a local phenomenon as well.
That being said, I know of a large number of solid bible-teaching churches in my general vicinity. I don't know if that is merely a local phenomenon or not. Could be that the large number of terrible churches is a local phenomenon as well.
Out of curiosity, which traditions or rituals are you seeing the Church moving away from. And why do you think it is a good thing?
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Interesting comments here. I would add in my ministry experience 20+ years we have seen a reformation of church structure but not of theology. So a reformation with a little "r" is appropriate.
20+ years ago denominations and highly structured organizations were the norm in churches. Most churches were under 100 people. Local pastor/shepherd had local authority but not much regional or national exposure.
Today, the mega church rules the day. They are denominations in and of themselves. They function under different rules and parameters. They are swallowing up entire churches and giving more regional and national exposure to the Pastor/CEO.
Most of these, I believe, has been caused by consumer driven models that are borrowed from western business structures. I do believe many mega churches are simply doing what they feel God is asking to reach as many people as possible. I am not saying they are evil or wrong. I really intend no commentary by these observations.
Some things to keep in mind- we have fewer churches today than 20 years ago. Average attendance is up slightly in those churches. We have a greater number of people calling themselves "christian". However a smaller percentage of the population is attending services on a regular basis.
The Church changes over time in reaction to the culture we exist along side. The message of the Gospel never changes.
20+ years ago denominations and highly structured organizations were the norm in churches. Most churches were under 100 people. Local pastor/shepherd had local authority but not much regional or national exposure.
Today, the mega church rules the day. They are denominations in and of themselves. They function under different rules and parameters. They are swallowing up entire churches and giving more regional and national exposure to the Pastor/CEO.
Most of these, I believe, has been caused by consumer driven models that are borrowed from western business structures. I do believe many mega churches are simply doing what they feel God is asking to reach as many people as possible. I am not saying they are evil or wrong. I really intend no commentary by these observations.
Some things to keep in mind- we have fewer churches today than 20 years ago. Average attendance is up slightly in those churches. We have a greater number of people calling themselves "christian". However a smaller percentage of the population is attending services on a regular basis.
The Church changes over time in reaction to the culture we exist along side. The message of the Gospel never changes.
Kahiel
Active Member
Perhaps I was a little narrow in my definition of reformation.
There indeed has been a shift in the expression of Christianity over the past two decades. In the trends you pointed out Ichthus, you missed a big one. The "main line" denominations (Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal etc.) have been leading the way in "liberal" theology (sacrificing the infallibility of Scripture for inclusiveness, taking a less literal view of Scripture and tradition and dropping traditional values in favor of contemporary ones) and are also declining in membership while the mega church "evangelical" movement has been growing.
As for ligitnoob's issue, I know what you are talking about. Many of the churches in my denomination are very small churches which have a very "country club" feel. They've been there for 100 years, and they are less interested in working with other churches in their community as they are adding feathers to their own caps. The church I'm at is fighting tooth and nail to move the church into a "missional" attitude. They give lip service to it, but it's become very "clubish" over the last few years.
There indeed has been a shift in the expression of Christianity over the past two decades. In the trends you pointed out Ichthus, you missed a big one. The "main line" denominations (Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal etc.) have been leading the way in "liberal" theology (sacrificing the infallibility of Scripture for inclusiveness, taking a less literal view of Scripture and tradition and dropping traditional values in favor of contemporary ones) and are also declining in membership while the mega church "evangelical" movement has been growing.
As for ligitnoob's issue, I know what you are talking about. Many of the churches in my denomination are very small churches which have a very "country club" feel. They've been there for 100 years, and they are less interested in working with other churches in their community as they are adding feathers to their own caps. The church I'm at is fighting tooth and nail to move the church into a "missional" attitude. They give lip service to it, but it's become very "clubish" over the last few years.
Exactly Kahiel well I don't know how it is where you live but here in the south it seems like all churches worry about is gaining members instead of gaining deciples, worried about the building instead of the lost. But the traditions I speak of is that the idea the church is a twice a week ordeal instead of a decipleship based church you have a church focused in oh I come twice a week and I'm doin good. A lot of the church also refuses to let the Holy Spirit move during church, like ( I can't remember what his name was) said the church Isno longer ran like a church but ran like a business! We blame it on society but it is the lack of the church being the Eklessia( think that's how u spell it) which mean a congregation and also the called out ones! The church is ineffective because there is no decipleship, people arnt being taught there purpose. We have Paul's, Timothy's, and Peter's just blindly walking through this world without the understanding of how to walk in there calling bc were not willing to deciple them. That is my current goal with my youth is to help them figure out there calling. And it would take me so long to talk about the lack of perusing the lost. I'll put it this way if people have to have statistics in order to get motivation to seek out the lost then those people need to go to the alter bc according to Paul If we are not reconciling the lost with Christ then ur wasting the blood of Christ.
Legitnoob, to add to what you said, people in the churches simply aren't being taught. Not only are they not taught their purpose, but they are not taught the Bible. Many pastors do not even preach from the Bible, and when they do they only really give a self-help speech. To make matters worse, church services are seen as a of entertainment, not a time focused on worshiping and glorifying the Living God. These are all serious problems facing the church right now that, unfortunately, are not being addressed for the most part.
Now as Wolfeman said, there are still good churches out there. There are even some that have turned around after having gone in the other direction for many years. What churches need are more people like you (and others that I see on here) who see the issues and are willing to look for Biblical solutions to how things are going wrong.
Now as Wolfeman said, there are still good churches out there. There are even some that have turned around after having gone in the other direction for many years. What churches need are more people like you (and others that I see on here) who see the issues and are willing to look for Biblical solutions to how things are going wrong.
Kahiel
Active Member
Here's an interesting article by Ed Stetzer that relates in part to the discussion here.
http://www.edstetzer.com/2013/03/the-media-and-the-desire-for-c.html
http://www.edstetzer.com/2013/03/the-media-and-the-desire-for-c.html
Kahiel
Active Member
I agree with you ligitnoob, the reason the missional church fails is because it is focused on mission not discipleship. We have spent our time telling people to "Go out and help someone!" rather than trying to grow people in Christ. When discipleship is done right, mission will naturally follow as people realize their purpose and begin spreading the Gospel.
Toledo is an interesting mix of churches. We have one multi-site, mega church several large churches (with major issues, both are health and wealth gospel too) and a lot of smaller "traditional" churches. There are some "good" ones out there but in our consumerist society people seek out a church that entertains and makes them feel good. There are people truly seeking after God but sometimes it seems hard to get the two together.
We just finished two sermons showing the congregation that real worship glorifies God and has nothing to do with whether you like the music or if you can drink your coffee in the Sanctuary.
Toledo is an interesting mix of churches. We have one multi-site, mega church several large churches (with major issues, both are health and wealth gospel too) and a lot of smaller "traditional" churches. There are some "good" ones out there but in our consumerist society people seek out a church that entertains and makes them feel good. There are people truly seeking after God but sometimes it seems hard to get the two together.
We just finished two sermons showing the congregation that real worship glorifies God and has nothing to do with whether you like the music or if you can drink your coffee in the Sanctuary.
But to clarify I wasn't meaning another Protestant reformation but a reforming of the church structure into a church that follows the structure of the church in Acts. And to talk about revival it's good but people just get into these cycles when it comes to revivals instead of just spending time in prayer and study fasting when God requires it. They seem to think that walking in The Holy Spirit is something you have to hold a week revival to obtain but the early church walked in it daily bc y they spent time with the Father daily. Today's church is lazy they think that attending Church will save them that they can pray a prayer once and everything will be ok but as an evangelist that I admire once sayed God will never be found with a cheep amount of effort.
Patriot
Active Member
Yet another thread degenerating into complaints and generalizations about the church. I wonder if these threads ever inspire people to acts of service and positive change rather then merely facilitating a gripe session. . .
. Well until the church is operating like the church in acts I think we need to be called out on it. Enough said we need to man up and take our role as children of the Most High God!!
Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
Not sure what you mean by "like the church in Acts." That was a horrendous church in a very short time. By Acts 6 there were divisions and disputes over sharing of food. Within twenty-five years you had the church at Corinth - that was large and wealthy and out of control. A church started by Paul himself, full of divisions, power struggles, with sinfulness being accepted as the norm, even making a mockery of communion and the love feast. Are you referring to the churches Jesus addressed in Revelation? That was only fifty years after Jesus and they were a mess, too. Sometimes we romanticize the New Testament church thinking, "If only we could get back to the basics..." Churches were as much a mess then as they are now.
I'm with Wolfeman on this, "There are still a lot of churches like the one you seek, legitnoob." Most churches (literally most, 60% to 75% depending on which statistics you use) are less than 100 people doing the best they can to follow Jesus and God's word in worship, discipleship, fellowship, service and reaching the lost; trying to be relevant while holding to the Gospel.
I'm also with Patriot on this, "Yet another thread degenerating into complaints and generalizations about the church. I wonder if these threads ever inspire people to acts of service and positive change..." There are plenty of good churches where you can worship and grow, fellowship and serve, and reach the lost. If you are not in one - find one. If you are in one - don't worry about those who may (or may not be) off track. Keep following Jesus. Even Jesus said, when the disciples wanted him to stop someone who was not one of them, "For whoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9:40 (NIV)
The Church - with all its blemishes - is the Bride of Christ, for crying out loud. Don't be too quick to over generalize nor to chastise. Too often it sounds like Elijah saying, not once but twice, "I have zealously served the LORD God Almighty. But the people of Israel have broken their covenant with you, torn down your altars, and killed every one of your prophets. I am the only one left...” 1 Kings 19:14 (NLT) God assured Elijah that He had it under control - there were good, God fearing people still about. And so, there still are today.
I hope your church has a great day of worship tomorrow.
I'm with Wolfeman on this, "There are still a lot of churches like the one you seek, legitnoob." Most churches (literally most, 60% to 75% depending on which statistics you use) are less than 100 people doing the best they can to follow Jesus and God's word in worship, discipleship, fellowship, service and reaching the lost; trying to be relevant while holding to the Gospel.
I'm also with Patriot on this, "Yet another thread degenerating into complaints and generalizations about the church. I wonder if these threads ever inspire people to acts of service and positive change..." There are plenty of good churches where you can worship and grow, fellowship and serve, and reach the lost. If you are not in one - find one. If you are in one - don't worry about those who may (or may not be) off track. Keep following Jesus. Even Jesus said, when the disciples wanted him to stop someone who was not one of them, "For whoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9:40 (NIV)
The Church - with all its blemishes - is the Bride of Christ, for crying out loud. Don't be too quick to over generalize nor to chastise. Too often it sounds like Elijah saying, not once but twice, "I have zealously served the LORD God Almighty. But the people of Israel have broken their covenant with you, torn down your altars, and killed every one of your prophets. I am the only one left...” 1 Kings 19:14 (NLT) God assured Elijah that He had it under control - there were good, God fearing people still about. And so, there still are today.
I hope your church has a great day of worship tomorrow.