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Dark Virtue said:
What I am saying is that no matter how bad he feels, he still committed crimes and needs to face the repercussions for that.
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Grace, man. Grace.

This is the point where God's view and humanity's really get different.

Much of the New Testament writings deal with the difference between Law (Rules) and Grace (Jesus' work). Under Law, humans have to keep a huge load or rules or else they go to hell. Fact is, under law, anyone who EVER breaks a single rule in the Bible --- and that's pretty well everyone --- is as guilty, evil, and deranged as Saddam Hussein. That means me, too. I'm as bad as Saddam. I'm as bad as Hitler*. Maybe worse because I hold Saddam and Hitler up as objects of scorn.

Grace is God's plan to redeem sinners. According to John 3:15-19:
"everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil."

Grace means that if someone believes in Jesus Christ as their God and as their salvation, they will be saved. No track record, no criminal check, no please-sign-this-form-to-guarantee-that-you-were-not-a-cruel-Islamic-dictator.

So... as to whether or not a serial rapist/murderer/pedophile/genocidist would be saved? "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him." John 3:18. Pretty clear, that one.

So then, why do we say Saddam is 'most likely' not saved? Well, reading on to the next lines, "God's light came into the world, but people [Saddam, assumedly] loved the darkness more than the light, for their [his] actions were evil." John 3:19.

Now, bear in mind the distinction between belief and "fire-insurance-faith." I have not yet ever claimed (as has been implied) that you can live the way you want and then do some sort of ritual to get eternal life. "On my death-bed/I will pray to the gods and the angels/like a begger/to anyone who will take me to heaven" (Audioslave, Like a Stone) just does not cut it. But whether or not you convert early or late, live a life of sin or of altruism, does not matter one whit to God. What matters is if we, at the end of our life, believe in the Son of God who takes away the Sin of the World.

I realize that the idea that God can, and will, forgive anyone who asks him to seems rather strange, bizarre, and even stupid to you. But it is the way the Bible tells it, and that's a darn good thing, because like I said, I'm really not much better than Saddam or Hitler.



*oh, by way of postscript. Hitler may have professed Christian faith, but he never showed a single sign of being a follower of Christ. Matthew 7:15-20 has instructions regarding such people:
"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
The holocaust seems to be pretty rotten fruit to me.
 
Do you really mean to say that someone like Hussein could live a life like this, then 20 seconds before his death, say he's sorry to your God and go on to live out eternity in Heaven?


Yes

Sin is Sin .. doesnt matter what it is, or how severe we consider it, to God its all Sin and He forgives us no matter what, no matter when, or where or why, IF we confess and Accept Christ Jesus, Son of Our Living God as the True Lord and Savior we are forgiven.

Their is nothing above the power of the Lord
 
Many people seek justice for wrongs done them. One does Evil to another so he seeks vengeance against them and in turn their children seek vengeance and so on and so on... Such things will never end until some one lays down their rights and says I forgive you. Christ did this. It was within his rights to condemn us all because we were all sinners but when the moment came, after being tortured and on the verge of death, he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do". If we are to accept this for our own salvation how can we not do the same to others and forgive them. When we do kill/execute someone it should not be for vengeance or the sins of the past but to protect people in the future.

On a interesting side note some of Saddam's cabinet were supposed to be Christians (maybe because they were less likely to kill him I don't know). Why did Hitler profess to be Christian? Well most of his army was of Christian roots. He probably claimed to be a Christian to garner support from them (most of the people fighting against him were Christian as well). I've seen websites were people profess to believe both in Jesus and Buddha! I've seen people profess to believe in Jesus and child pornography too! Regardless simplify because someone professes to believe or be something does not mean they do (hmm sounds like Satan to me). Only God knows our hearts and any deathbed recant that is not sincere would not deceive God as it does us. As Christians we often use the phrase having a personal relationship with God. Somewhat like one has a relationship with ones human father. We try to do the things that please him not out of fear alone but because we love him. Example, one day a man comes to kill you for some debts you have incurred but a man you don't know, a man who could have walked away, a man who has no debt to pay comes and takes your place. Don't you feel grateful towards the man who died for you? Don't you wonder why? Now imagine that man who died for you was God. I am in awe that the God of the universe would leave paradise become a mere man, suffer and die. All so I a flawed creation could have eternal life...accepting this changes a person. This all had to happen though if we were to be saved. There was a "spiritual justice" that had to be served. A cost that all our sins occurred and it could only be paid by one who was perfect. Christ's sacrifice was the plus in God's accounting book that paid for all our minuses.

If you want to take it on a earthly logical level I will give a run down as I see some other faiths. I mean no insult to anyone these are the facts nothing more.

The good deeds get you to Heaven belief: If you had lead a evil life (like Saddam) what could you do to make up for those evil deeds if you knew you were going to die soon? A old murderer would have no reason to change. He would just keep murdering and enjoying himself because there would be no time for good deeds. And if there was a "good deed" in your faith that blotted out all others why not just use them like money. Hey I want to do this sin but I'll do these good deeds too so it's ok. That's why the 9/11 hijackers spent their last days with prostitutes believing they would earn heaven by their martyrdom. That's why Kings thought they could marry and behead wives then buy absolution by building churches and paying people to pray for them. That's why corrupt churches tried to sell forgiveness. What "good deed" could a flawed person ever do to be worth perfection (Heaven)? We can never be worthy of perfection. Only by God giving us what we do not deserve can we have it.

Atheism: If nothing is what you want nothing is what you get and do you really want nothing? Of all faiths Atheism is the most illogical. I would gather that the atheist must come to one of 2 conclusions eventually. There is the no ultimate justice conclusion. If something makes me happy why not do it. Live on impulse if I can get away without earthly consequences why not. Causing other people pain? Why should I care when I, everyone else and all we will ever do will be forgotten in time. Or the nothing matters conclusion. If nothing matters why live? My life is pointless and painful so I end it. True atheism is literality a pointless belief.

Humanism: Some non-Christians seem to put Satan as the only thing we fight against but the truth is self is our strongest opponent. Why did Satan rebel against God? For himself and likewise we do the same. Why else would people reject a God only to worship another? Because they think they will get what they want though it. In humanism this desire to serve self becomes pure. Humanism is to worship ourselves as God. When we become our own Gods what can we do wrong? No sin or abomination will be too great in the end. Humanism teaches with the power of friendship you can do anything (seen this on so many video games). So If I have enough friends I am justified in doing anything I wish...I don't think so. Of all False beliefs I fear Humanism the most. People today are using it to unite people in worship of self and no one sees what is coming. One day some people, the sick, retarded and those backwards God worshipers will be seen as dead weight to society.

Islam: In Islam if your scales be light (lacking in good deeds) you go to hell. So many Muslims live in fear of those scales. Some so much so they seek the surest way to Heaven, to die while killing infidels (Martyrdom). This poses a couple interesting questions to me though. Why would Allah make a way to go to Heaven in the first place? He would have to a interest in us to begin with, meaning love us. This is not something the Islamic belief teaches. Even if a Muslim did believe Allah loved them why does he reward you for sending someone else to Hell? If he loved us first he would want everyone saved. This is the polar opposite of the Christian belief which teaches no greater gift has a man than to give his life for another. One rewards with redeeming the other with condemning.

Buddhism: I honestly don't have enough experience or knowledge to comment much on the Buddhist faith. I know Shinto-Buddhism has many Gods. Multiple Gods have never made any sense. How can you have one all powerful being when you have more than one (as Christians the Father,Son and Holy Ghost are one being akin to having 2 hands, both are part of the same being) As far as the pure Buddhist faith (correct me if I am wrong) Buddha was supposed to have become enlightened by himself but once again how can a flawed human being become perfect of his own power?

It is worth noting that whatever you hold highest is really your "God" even if you do not call it that. Some people worship money, fame or other people (most people probably see American Idol as just a TV show but a few undoubtablely see it as just that a "American IDOL") Most false beliefs let people worship their own flesh (self) to some extent. False Gods do petty and human things so their worshippers can do likewise. False morality lets people serve themselves by making exceptions to sin (women, blacks, Jews are lesser people etc.) . I've listed all these beliefs because I wanted to show that only If God Loves us does anything make sense and only if he loves us can we be saved. I pray I have explained myself understandably in all this.
 
blashemy against the holy spirit is pretty much never repenting then u die as a sinner, completely disregarding anything of Jesus.
 
Atown said:
blashemy against the holy spirit is pretty much never repenting then u die as a sinner, completely disregarding anything of Jesus.
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that's up for debate... blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't that cut and dried.

Here's an interesting point of view on this subject:

Matthew 12:22-37: Then a demon-possessed man, who was blind and couldn’t speak, was brought to Jesus. He healed the man so that he could both speak and see. The crowd was amazed and asked, “Could it be that Jesus is the Son of David, the Messiah?”

But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, “No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons.”

Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, “Any kingdom divided by civil war is doomed. A town or family splintered by feuding will fall apart. And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive. And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said. But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. For who is powerful enough to enter the house of a strong man like Satan and plunder his goods? Only someone even stronger—someone who could tie him up and then plunder his house.

“Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

“So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

“A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.”


Two points I'd like to make:
1, the Pharisees were HIGHLY trained religious authorities (at least according to the description given by Paul.) They knew the scriptures hard-core, and therefore one can infer that they knew the power of God when they saw it -- or they should have. But they also knew that Jesus presented a threat to their political position amongst the Jews. So when they heard that he had done yet another miracle, they poo-pooed it as the work of witchcraft.

2, Jesus calls the Pharisee movement a "brood of snakes" which is pretty much the same level of slam as "Sons of Satan" to a culture that believed that the Serpent was at least somewhat at fault for their downfall. He also never calls them anything other than the "brood of snakes" after this incident.


I am by no means the authority on this subject, but maybe the unforgivable sin happens when someone knows 100% that a given thing is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, and yet for personal reasons chooses to label it as the work of Satan or of demons?

Anyhoo I think this is more a question for the "What does God say about...?" thread.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
that's up for debate... blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't that cut and dried.

Here's an interesting point of view on this subject:

Matthew 12:22-37: Then a demon-possessed man, who was blind and couldn’t speak, was brought to Jesus. He healed the man so that he could both speak and see. The crowd was amazed and asked, “Could it be that Jesus is the Son of David, the Messiah?”

But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, “No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons.”

Jesus knew their thoughts and replied, “Any kingdom divided by civil war is doomed. A town or family splintered by feuding will fall apart. And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive. And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said. But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. For who is powerful enough to enter the house of a strong man like Satan and plunder his goods? Only someone even stronger—someone who could tie him up and then plunder his house.

“Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

“So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

“A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.”


Two points I'd like to make:
1, the Pharisees were HIGHLY trained religious authorities (at least according to the description given by Paul.) They knew the scriptures hard-core, and therefore one can infer that they knew the power of God when they saw it -- or they should have. But they also knew that Jesus presented a threat to their political position amongst the Jews. So when they heard that he had done yet another miracle, they poo-pooed it as the work of witchcraft.

2, Jesus calls the Pharisee movement a "brood of snakes" which is pretty much the same level of slam as "Sons of Satan" to a culture that believed that the Serpent was at least somewhat at fault for their downfall. He also never calls them anything other than the "brood of snakes" after this incident.


I am by no means the authority on this subject, but maybe the unforgivable sin happens when someone knows 100% that a given thing is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, and yet for personal reasons chooses to label it as the work of Satan or of demons?

Anyhoo I think this is more a question for the "What does God say about...?" thread.
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i like cut n dry though, makes it easier on my head when youve got math, english, poly-sci, asl and xml classes to worry bout :)
 
Deep down we all know we are subject to a higher power whether you want to accept it or not is up to you. Everyone knows they are going to die yet many choose not accept that fact. The Holy Spirit only comes upon you with the acceptance of Christ so it could be argued that the rejection of Christ in ones heart and thus the rejection of the Holy Spirit is the blasphemy. Not to be confused with any earthly words that are spoken against Christ which would be forgiven. Satan himself knows of Gods existence but refuses to accept him as God thus he is condemned. There are also people who can quote the bible verbatim from memory who you could call HIGHLY trained religious authorities but that does not mean they believe/accept any of it.

A hypothetical situation I have thought of before. A person is whole heartily for God and has accepted Christ is his heart from his youth. One day he suffers brain damage and forgets all he ever knew including his passion for God and adopts a sinful life. Will he be rejected of God if he dies in such a state? No. It only takes one true moment to accept Jesus. Make no mistake though that moment cannot be faked and no earthly power (not amnesia not anything, Romans 8:38-39) can come between you and God. Even if you forget God he has never forgotten you. Once we become Christians we don't stop sinning even though we try to. So even the most highly trained and most sincere Christian authority rejects God's will at some point.

blashemy against the holy spirit is pretty much never repenting then u die as a sinner, completely disregarding anything of Jesus.
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Although I would have phrased it differently I think it is that cut and dried =)

Off the subject question which translation do you quote from Neirai? I only read KJV and admittedly not enough.
 
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But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, “No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons.”
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If you want to get technical, this quote actually sums up the definition of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Attributing works of the Holy Spirit to that of Satan.
 
The Mighty Gerbil said:
Atheism: If nothing is what you want nothing is what you get and do you really want nothing? Of all faiths Atheism is the most illogical. I would gather that the atheist must come to one of 2 conclusions eventually. There is the no ultimate justice conclusion. If something makes me happy why not do it. Live on impulse if I can get away without earthly consequences why not. Causing other people pain? Why should I care when I, everyone else and all we will ever do will be forgotten in time. Or the nothing matters conclusion. If nothing matters why live? My life is pointless and painful so I end it. True atheism is literality a pointless belief.
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If atheism is a faith, then bald is a hair color.

You are wrong here on SO many levels, not least of which is your assertion that atheism is a faith or religious belief. It is NOT.

Your logic is also quite skewed...to the point of being completely erroneous. Atheists place much more importance treating their fellow humans well precisely because of our lack of belief in an afterlife. All we have is the here and now, we don't place stock in some future life that we have no evidence of. Why don't I cause other people pain? Because I don't want others to cause pain to me. The golden rule was not a construct of Christ or Christianity. It existed long before Christ supposedly existed. I have proven this multiple times on this forum, and it is easily verifiable. The Golden Rule is precisely what keeps us, all of us, from slipping into chaos and is the cornerstone of ethics.

Humanism: Some non-Christians seem to put Satan as the only thing we fight against but the truth is self is our strongest opponent. Why did Satan rebel against God? For himself and likewise we do the same. Why else would people reject a God only to worship another? Because they think they will get what they want though it. In humanism this desire to serve self becomes pure. Humanism is to worship ourselves as God. When we become our own Gods what can we do wrong? No sin or abomination will be too great in the end. Humanism teaches with the power of friendship you can do anything (seen this on so many video games). So If I have enough friends I am justified in doing anything I wish...I don't think so. Of all False beliefs I fear Humanism the most. People today are using it to unite people in worship of self and no one sees what is coming. One day some people, the sick, retarded and those backwards God worshipers will be seen as dead weight to society.
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Where the heck do you get this stuff, from some Christian propaganda pamphlet? Humanism is NOT about worshiping ourselves as God.

Simply put, Humanism affirms the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities, like logic, reason and rationalism. Humanism actually shares it's ethics with Christianity, believing in moral universalism...albeit from different sources.

Seriously, you do yourself a disservice by speaking about things you obviously have no understanding of.
 
If atheism is a faith, then bald is a hair color.
You are wrong here on SO many levels, not least of which is your assertion that atheism is a faith or religious belief. It is NOT.
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What is your highest standard? Would you do ANYTHING the government asked you too? Probably not, so you must have a higher belief. Would you do anything your friends asked? Probably not either. But what if someone you loved was in trouble for doing something wrong? Would you help them knowing they would do it again or stop them? As I stated earlier whatever you hold highest is your God or your religion. If you believe in nothing then nothing is your God. It shapes your actions and choices. If you believe the box is empty and not heavy you may try to pick it up. If you believe there is no consequence to your actions you may do one thing when you normally would not. If you believe only in yourself then you are your God.

Answer this can a person be a atheist and be a Christian at the same time? They can't because they are both religions and they say opposite things. No more than a cup can be empty and full at the same time. I think you are confused about the concept of what nothing is. True nothing cannot be defined because you define it by calling it nothing. In America we have a law that says if you saw a man dying in street and you do NOTHING, you don't call someone else, you don't make anything worse or better, you can go to jail. Why when you have done nothing? Because it was a choice. Nothing is a very long subject I will not get into :p Suffice to say your beliefs and race are not the same things. One is a something people have chosen to accept the other is something you were born with and cannot change. Race is akin to hair color or the genetic baldness you were born with. Some people choose to shave their heads and to dye their hair but they cannot change the fact they had it. Newborns do believe in one thing though, self. I am in pain so I cry. That's all they know and many people never grow beyond that. When one claims to be a atheist self still remains. Many Christians don't call Christianity a "RELIGION" either they call it a personal relationship with God.

Your logic is also quite skewed...to the point of being completely erroneous. Atheists place much more importance treating their fellow humans well precisely because of our lack of belief in an afterlife. All we have is the here and now, we don't place stock in some future life that we have no evidence of. Why don't I cause other people pain? Because I don't want others to cause pain to me.
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If all you have is the here and now why would any atheist be willing to give their life for another?

The golden rule was not a construct of Christ or Christianity. It existed long before Christ supposedly existed. I have proven this multiple times on this forum, and it is easily verifiable. The Golden Rule is precisely what keeps us, all of us, from slipping into chaos and is the cornerstone of ethics.
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Yes the golden rule existed long before it was written in the Bible (it's actually not the number one rule either but people forget the other). I would go farther in saying that from Adam (or Darwin's monkeys if you prefer) people have treated each other as they would like to be treated...except when they think they can get away with it without consequences. Many have thought just that. As I said in a earlier post "if I can get away without earthly consequences why not" Your assumption is that the person thinks another will know that they have done something wrong. With a belief in just about any concept of a hereafter you are under the possibility of paying for your actions IE not being able to escape from the consequences. If you could do a wrong that benefited you (steal, kill whatever) but were absolutely certain you would never be caught AND never have anyone do that wrong to you, would you do it? You'd probably say "no" here but that is not the important part. The important part is tell me WHY NOT? After all you'd never have any pain from it and why should you feel any remorse for someone who is only a animal. Do you eat meat? If you do how can value a person who has no spirit, no quality that goes beyond being a animal. If you think intelligence is the defining factor between us and animals then the retarded and those with learning disabilities must be considered lesser people. If you only believe in logic only. Then by science you must believe in survival of the fittest. Any dead weight, any sick or infirmed person who holds back society must be disposed of for the good of society. How much do we pay for health care for those who have illnesses with no cure. Why risk a hundred soldiers to save a captured one? Where is the value in a single person in if they cannot benefit society?

Furthermore the golden rule was given as a commandment not just a reason for treating others well. As Christians we want to help people to the point of dying for them (at least that's the goal) the motivation for this is we value others MORE than ourselves. Yes I would be honored if someone died for me (and someone did) but do I want someone to? No. Love is not a equal exchange system it is selfless. By science love does not exist. It is a brain chemical nothing more. If it is only that we will probably be able to buy it in a store one day. How could people value something like that?

If you cannot definitively prove there is nothing beyond this life (which you cannot because you'd have to be beyond this life to absolutely know) why not believe in something? I argue that it would only be to a persons benefit to believe in some kind of hereafter even if you did not believe in a judgment. Here is the choices you can make

1 believe in nothing in this life get nothing in the next = no hope in this life
2 believe in nothing in this life but you still get something = there is still no hope in this life you are just surprised in the next but I guess you were wrong
3 believe in a hereafter in this life but get nothing in the next = hope in this life but since you aren't around afterwards you can't regret your mistake
4 believe in a hereafter get a hereafter = hope

Also consider if there is a afterlife your belief in this life could effect what you get in the next
5 believe in nothing but in order to get something you must believe in nothing = you could not get this because you'd be believing in something by believing in nothing! It is a double negative! It's not possible.
6 believe in nothing but there is something and you lose it because you never believed = no hope in this life and none in the next.

You say that atheist will value life MORE because that is all he has but if that is all he has would he not value his life more than another's? A Christian should value life because he believes there is something more to our lives. That they are neither pointless or unloved. The difference is Hope.

Where the heck do you get this stuff, from some Christian propaganda pamphlet? Humanism is NOT about worshiping ourselves as God.

Simply put, Humanism affirms the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities, like logic, reason and rationalism. Humanism actually shares it's ethics with Christianity, believing in moral universalism...albeit from different sources.

Seriously, you do yourself a disservice by speaking about things you obviously have no understanding of.
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Moral universalism? If I understand you correctly you think humanism believes in a absolute right and wrong but this is exactly what it cannot do because people are not absolute. If you believe a person was absolute they would be a GOD wouldn't they. This is exactly my point. As Christians we believe in a truth that goes beyond ourselves, one that is eternal and unchanging. We may not know what that truth is but we know there is one. As a Humanist if you believe in a "moral universalism" you have to derive what it is from people. Believing those people to be the highest authority you have no where to go when they get something wrong. Majority = right. If everyone jumped off a cliff then I guess you would because that many people can't be wrong :P Let me give you a example. Many people believe that unborn children are just globs of tissue. What if one day there was research done that that said the unborn could feel pain that they sleep and dream that they could recognize their mothers voice? Do you think people would stop performing abortions? Well they haven't and all the facts above have been proven. Here is some sites so you can find some facts if you wish.

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html the pro life site
http://www.mccl.org/fp_news/fetal_pain.htm another pro life site
http://www.thebodyworker.com/pregnancytrimesterinfo.html just a pregnancy info place
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=59201 article

I am sure you will prefer to google your own. Some pro-choice places openly admit to the pain issue, some go into saying you have to be "self aware" to be able to understand what pain is. Yes when a unborn child can follow a light source with his eyes and recognize voices he is not considered "self aware". Of course you'd have to prove that adults are "self aware" of pain too so I guess it is ok to kill those that cannot speak (Terri Schiavo anyone?). 3-trimester abortions are rare anyway so it is ok to kill a few children (sarcasm). After all if they are going to be born into a place were they are unloved and unwanted better to ease the burden on society and them in this mercy killing. They will never be able to get back at me and I have the majority telling me it is right so why not?

Now there are Humanist who don't believe in abortion and Christians who do. The point is Christians have somewhere to turn to other than the majority. We question because we know we are flawed and will never be perfect on earth. At some point a Humanist will stop questioning. Don't think Humanism has gone to this extreme yet? I still remember listening to a guy on PBS who was the head of a cloning research lab giving a speech saying how we no longer needed a God because we could create life. Let me give you the translation. Before only God could create life but if only God could create life and we now can do it, WE BECOME GOD.

It is Humanism that is causing some of the problems in Iraq in my opinion. Our Christian president seems to have a humanistic idea that if you just give a people, ANY PEOPLE a chance a democratic society will work. That there is a inherent human goodness that will overcome all other beliefs. This is not a Christian view. You cannot just toss someone a alien belief and expect them to love it right away.

So you know I did not read any Christian pamphlet for any of this (unless you count the Bible :p ). Feel free to respond I would be happy to discuss the matter further. There was no hostility in any of this I pray it is received in the manner it was intended.
 
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Gerbil, your logic is truly mindboggling.

The problem you are having is two fold...one: you are confusing several issues and two: you don't have a proper understanding of those issues to begin with.

First, your argument that whatever you believe in most is your God or faith is simply erroneous. The argument isn't even fashioned correctly, so it's hard to criticize any one issue without tackling the whole.

Second, your assertion that atheism is a religion is false. You can repeat it as often as you like, but that won't make you, or your assertion, right. Merriam Webster has four subheadings under religion.

1. a.the service and worship of God or the supernatural
Atheists worship neither a god nor the supernatural.
1. b. commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
Atheists have no commitment or devotion to religious faiths or observances
2. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
This may be the closest you come to defining atheism as a religion. You, however, fail to recognize the absence of a religious attitudes, beliefs or practices that atheists have. You are trying to create a positive out of a negative. The absence of light is darkness...darkness isn't a type of light.
3. scrupulous conformity
Atheism does not fit this definition as there is no conformity.
4. a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
I would accept this definition if it weren't for the last word...faith.

If you are basing religion off of another definition, please let me know.

I would love to go into more detail, but I think we are both walking a fine line regarding religious discussion in this forum.

When I have a bit more time, I will reply to your post point by point in PM.

You may want to review these previous threads where some of your questions have already been answered:

http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15674&highlight=atheist

http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14871&highlight=atheist

http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12007&highlight=atheist

http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11539&highlight=atheist

http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10036&highlight=atheist
 
close topic and have DV and TMG do this in pm?? lol all i ever wanted to say was saddam was gone lol. side note: ur last post dv is impressive, thats the kool thing bout u, even though i dont agree with u, u really present ur opinion and beliefs in a nice understandable fashion
 
Atown said:
close topic and have DV and TMG do this in pm?? lol all i ever wanted to say was saddam was gone lol. side note: ur last post dv is impressive, thats the kool thing bout u, even though i dont agree with u, u really present ur opinion and beliefs in a nice understandable fashion
Click to expand...

Thank you! :D
 
I have a question for you DV. Would you rather believe there is a God and find out that there isn't or believe there is no God and find out that there is?
 
It's topics like this that make me miss the old RD forums. This would be much better suited there. I delve dangerously close to a lock, and for that I am sorry. But even as a Christian, I feel that astrod00d's post requires rebuttal.

Using the "which way would you rather be wrong" approach can be trouble. It gives people the wrong idea about what Jesus really is all about. Jesus didn't come to scare people into submission - He came to love them into a relationship.

The "What if I'm wrong" ideology should be a corollary of our belief, not the focus or reason. The "What if I'm Wrong" isn't really even belief for belief's sake. It's barely even a belief. It's not a true relationship with God, which is what He wants. I could say "I believe my wall can think", just because I don't want to be wrong and offend my wall just in case it *can* think. But if my wall can think, and knows that I only said "maybe it can" as a 'just in case'... wouldn't my wall still be mad at me?

The same, I suspect, applies here. If you believe in God 'just in case', then you're not really in it for the right reason. You don't have a relationship, you have an acknowledgment of the possibility of His existence. However, I'm not the final judge, He is. I understand that my logic is flawed and incomplete and I'm not fit to judge the least of us. I'm just giving you what I believe based on what I've read.
 
However, I'd like to point out that there is nothing wrong with becoming a Christian because you are afraid of going to hell for your sins. ;)
 
I'm not saying that's why you should believe. That leads to the 'fire insurance' type of belief which is not true belief. I'm just curious as to how an atheist would answer that question.
 
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