Some Q's? about CGAlliance and the rules for affiliation....

[Lygernight]

Recently, I have been debating about starting a Christian Guild in World of Warcraft since there seems to be none on the Illidan server. I enjoy the PVP action as well as playing the Horde. My questions doesn't have so much to do with World of Warcraft as it does about the requirements to become affiliates of CGAlliance.org

After much thought I've decided the rules for my guild would be kept as simple as possible.

First and foremost it is a Christian Community, no if's and's or buts about it.
We do beleive in the basis tenets of Christianity:

- There is only one God
- Jesus Christ is God’s only Son
- None can get to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
- The Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is the inspired word of God.

as you all have posted for requirements of Christian groups to join affiliation. We are in complete agreement with this 100% whole heartedly.


Secondly, we seem to have a bit of confusion about one of the affiliations rules.

in particular, the third one from The "Interested in affiliating with the Christian Gamers Alliance?" post

3. All members of an affiliate must agree with the basic tenets of Christianity. In other words, gaming groups accepting non-Christians as members are not eligible for affiliation.

Now why can't a group have non-Christains as members? Isn't part of the point to help spread the word of God? Even non-Christian gamers need God. Our group would gladly except beleivers and non-believers alike, much as a church would welcome anyone who walks through it's doors to join it's services. Now we do let everyone know this is a Christian Guild and as such, behavior is expected to be much as if you were in the House of the Lord. No swear, cussing, graphic or Lude content or anything of a Sexual nature. We set it up so that people would not only have a clean and safer environment, but would also have the freedom to discuss their Faith in the Lord Jesus if they so wish.

I just don't understand why it's not acceptable to allow non-Christians to join "Christian groups". It's almost setting a standard that tells the world the group as a whole doesn't want anything to do with you unless you are beleivers as they are. Jesus didn't teach us to alienate others, but to "Love thy neighbor as thy self". How can we as Christians united under one group in an on-line community if we can't allow others to join us and find out who we are and what we're about? How can we help spread the word of the Lord if we're only conversing with believers? I'm not saying we should be missionaries all the time on-line to people, but I am saying it can't hurt to allow the occasional person to join and learn about our group and possibly become a believer because of our actions as a group. Just wondering where the CGAliiance's stand is on this.

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

Now why can't a group have non-Christains as members?

This rule was added to the Christian Gamers Alliance charter after a great deal of consideration. It was not a decision made lightly.

The purpose of requiring all members of an affiliate group to agree to the basic tenets of Christianity is not to exclude or alienate; rather, it is to guarantee a common faith between all members. This common ground allows Christians a focal point for drafting group rules, resolving disputes, and a standard of behavior.

Isn't part of the point to help spread the word of God? Even non-Christian gamers need God. Our group would gladly except beleivers and non-believers alike, much as a church would welcome anyone who walks through it's doors to join it's services.

Aye, but what church have you known to allow members to join without a profession of faith?

Yes, all people are welcome to sit in on a church service, just as all people are welcome to post on our forums and play games with members of our various affiliates.

Gaming groups that only admit Christians as members have been labeled "exclusivistic." By the same reasoning, one could claim that Christian churches are "exclusivistic" for only allowing Christians to join as members. The key is understanding the difference between visitor and member.

There is no way to please all people; there is no one ministry that reaches all people. Differences in geography, cultural backgrounds, pastors' teaching styles, and other factors lead to differences among churches. In the same manner, different Christian gaming groups exist to serve different communities. I do not "look down" on groups that allow both Christians and non-Christians; they stand to reach people that may not be interested in our community.

Now we do let everyone know this is a Christian Guild and as such, behavior is expected to be much as if you were in the House of the Lord. No swear, cussing, graphic or Lude content or anything of a Sexual nature. We set it up so that people would not only have a clean and safer environment, but would also have the freedom to discuss their Faith in the Lord Jesus if they so wish.

Such a charter is commendable, but take care not to equate moral behavior with Christ-like behavior; Christ-like behavior is much more than not sinning. Christians are called to go beyond "being good;" James tells us that those who know what is good and do not do it sin.

I just don't understand why it's not acceptable to allow non-Christians to join "Christian groups".

Then how do you define a group as "Christian"? If a group has both Christian and non-Christian members and they are of equal rank, then how can the group be called "Christian"?

Is a Christian group one that only offers staff positions to Christians? Is that not also a form of exclusivism?

My point is not to assert that a group established by such standards would not be Christian, but rather to explain how the Christian Gamers Alliance decides which groups are and are not eligible for affiliation.

It's almost setting a standard that tells the world the group as a whole doesn't want anything to do with you unless you are beleivers as they are.

Assumption of intention is a dangerous thing. That is not at all what we are implying, nor is it in the hearts of our staff members. Be careful not to rush to call this community exclusivistic; our staff members, especially our Religious Discussion Forum Moderator, Genesis, has put in a great deal of time and effort to give non-Christians a place to ask questions and get answers about Christianity.

We have dedicated our time, our efforts, and, in many cases, our finances, to develop this community and make it a place that welcomes non-Christians as well as Christians. Joining our forums and including accusatory claims in your first post is not only bad manner, it's poor rhetoric. If you wish to ask us to re-examine our charter, this is not the way to do it.

Jesus didn't teach us to alienate others, but to "Love thy neighbor as thy self". How can we as Christians united under one group in an on-line community if we can't allow others to join us and find out who we are and what we're about? How can we help spread the word of the Lord if we're only conversing with believers?

Except we're not only conversing with other Christians. When members of Christian gaming groups play various online games, they are interacting with and speaking with non-Christians. When non-Christians post on these forums, they are answered by Christians and by non-Christians.

Are we shutting our doors to non-Christians? Where is there a sign that says, "Only Christians can post on these forums?" What Christian gaming group says, "We will have nothing to do with non-Christians?" Our doors are open, I see no such sign, and no Christian gaming group that I know of has isolated its members from the larger gaming community.

It is perfectly feasible to love a person who has not accepted Christ while denying that person membership in a Christian church.

I'm not saying we should be missionaries all the time on-line to people, but I am saying it can't hurt to allow the occasional person to join and learn about our group and possibly become a believer because of our actions as a group. Just wondering where the CGAliiance's stand is on this.

We do not accept groups that allow non-Christians the same rank as Christians; however, we do not "look down" on or refuse to associate with such groups.

All that being said, I understand that with World of Warcraft becoming more popular than Counter-Strike, we must re-examine how we communicate with non-Christians. In Counter-Strike and other first-person shooters, members of a Christian gaming group and non-Christian visitors to that group's server play together and by the same rules. It is an open environment with no private or group communication. When you type or say something, your team or all players on the server read or hear it.

World of Warcraft presents us with a different social structure. The shift from servers to guilds as the primary "boundary" of Christian gaming gives us new questions, opportunities, and problems. This has been a question of great concern for Tribe of Judah and its World of Warcraft chapter. There is no simple solution, but there may be a compromise: Allow people who are not members of Tribe of Judah join the World of Warcraft chapter guild, but only after submitting a letter explaining why they wish to join and gaining a sponsor who will be held accountable for their actions. A clear line is drawn between Tribe of Judah member and guild member. This allows non-Christians to interact with guild members on a more personal level while maintaining the integrity of the Tribe of Judah charter and ToJ's eligibility for inclusion within the Alliance.

This structure is not something that has been widely announced and I anticipate that some may take issue with this plan. Still, I post it here to prove that it is the heart of the Christian Gamers Alliance and its affiliate groups to demonstrate Christ's love to non-Christians. The hearts of our staff members are not hard; if the Lord guides us to change, we will change. On the other hand, we will not blown around by every wind nor change every time a person takes issue with the prerequisites for joining the Alliance.

Lygernight, I commend you for your efforts and trust that the Lord will bless your effort on Illidan. I ask that you post more information about your guild once it is formed. Though we use different methods, we are both seeking the glory of God; let our common faith unite us rather than let our differences divide us.

 

[Weazel]

The ToJ guild actually used to be on Illidan, but it switched to Stonemaul when server transfers were allowed because of lag/crashes/overcrowdedness. They were alliance though.

 

[SirThom]

Well put, Tek.

 

[Lygernight]

First and foremost let me commend you on making sure much thought and prayer went into to the established system you have here. Let me also apologize for making some assumptions based on the rules that you all have set out. It is always important to make sure such decisions are definately made with clear thought, the true heart of worship, and most importantly patience of prayer.

I think the idea of possibly having members explain their intent on joining a guild and being a non-christian would indeed help, as well as explain to others that it's not to be taken lightly to just join any group with a whimsicle decision.

I guess for me, my thinking has been since I rarely, if ever, come across fellow christians in video games unless I know them personally in real life, it's easier to allow everyone who wants to join. I used to just deal with the fact that there wasn't a "Christian" guild around to join and went with the best I could find, however I'm finding everytime I do that it results the same. I find that there's always disagreements, heartache and arguements about silly things, and dicussions of ridiuclous and often unwelcomed content. I do above all else, Love the Lord with all my heart. I find it hard to enjoy games and play with other non-beleivers and expect them to understand where I'm coming from or even who I am.

It's also so very hard in establishing a Christian guild when you know only one person on an entire server (of which is my best friend, and I call my adopted-brother..but thats another story ). I guess some of my thoughts were that I could start a Christian guild, but also involve non-christians who wanted to join and really understand what our purpose is.

All to often I find people constantly chastisizing christians on WoW's forums because they are a "Christian guild" recruiting on the forums, simply because they used the word Christian. Especially with the way Blizzard has set up their rules and Code of Conduct you can no longer express religious beleifs in game in general chat areas. You have to go out of the game on their forums and post the information. So I have to not only announce I'm recruiting for this guild, but then have to answer tell after tell that we're a christian guild and deal with people's attitudes from there after.


It truly is one of the most difficult area's to try and tackle. How can one start a Christian Guild without talking about it? The best thing I've found at the moment, is to allow all users to join explaining upfront who we are and what we're about. I will agree and say it's not the greatest way to go about it, but it's the best I could come up with. I truly want to make friends on this server, especially fellow believers in Christ, it's so difficult though. And I feel changing servers would be beneficial but my friend and I have already spent time on the servers we're on and have established decent leveled characters....so now what abondon and begin anew? Not a likely course of action, but would help in some aspects.

We also enjoy the PVP content, more so then PVE. It's alot to take in, and alot to think about. I also love to make websites for guilds, and am working on my own site for christian gamers where they can share with other christian groups from any game online. It will allow other christian groups to have their own forum areas, as well as one day soon offer personl blog space for their groups, guilds or even personal use. I want to help encourage the growth of Christian communities with Christian Gamers On-line. It is so important for all of us to remain united to help this industry grow and also to help others understand that gamers aren't just secular non-believers, athiests, or agnostics. Even Christians love video games (and find time to let their hair down if you well) and enjoy a great level 20 quest and hope for epic items

So I guess I'm really seeking a helpful solution for the situation I'm in, more so then questing the decisions of this Alliance. I honest hope I didn't come off the wrong way, I just really didn't understand until this post what the purpose was, couldn't wrap my head around it until now

 

[SLNT_FIR]

gaaahhh. long posts.

Anyway, i'm always interested in meeting more people. Instead of affiliating, we could share server informattion? that's what me and alot of my friends do. people don't officially affiliate, but we often have 2-3 different clans frequenting the other clan's servers... its fun, but it doesn't happen that much now.

 

[Corpfox]

Christians "make" non-Believers into Believers, its the way you people do (Given the rights questions and answers).

Having non-Christians in a Christian clan/guild would not be "compatible". Especially since those non-Christians are as bad as......well, like my Infested Terran avatar; corrupted, evil.

You've seen the talks and chats, how non-Christians talk about hatred towards Christians, with their swearing words and symbols. Making false things that the Devil is good and God is bad. Corrupting your existence towards your beliefs, its just plain bad.

Given a lot of time and effort, Christians could or can make non-Christians, Christian. That way, you wouldn't have a problem of converting a non-Christian into a Christian and joining the clan/guild.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I guess for me, my thinking has been since I rarely, if ever, come across fellow christians in video games unless I know them personally in real life, it's easier to allow everyone who wants to join. I used to just deal with the fact that there wasn't a "Christian" guild around to join and went with the best I could find, however I'm finding everytime I do that it results the same. I find that there's always disagreements, heartache and arguements about silly things, and dicussions of ridiuclous and often unwelcomed content. I do above all else, Love the Lord with all my heart. I find it hard to enjoy games and play with other non-beleivers and expect them to understand where I'm coming from or even who I am.

I've led the GW guild for about a year now, and I can tell you-- there are still disagreements, heartache, and arguments about silly things. What sets apart a Christian guild, IMO, are two things: first, that we have an absolute standard to fall back on to resolve those disputes, and second, the shared belief in Christ allows us to be more open and vulnerable in our relationships with each other, which leads to deeper and more honest conflict resolution.

All to often I find people constantly chastisizing christians on WoW's forums because they are a "Christian guild" recruiting on the forums, simply because they used the word Christian. Especially with the way Blizzard has set up their rules and Code of Conduct you can no longer express religious beleifs in game in general chat areas. You have to go out of the game on their forums and post the information. So I have to not only announce I'm recruiting for this guild, but then have to answer tell after tell that we're a christian guild and deal with people's attitudes from there after.

Unfortunately, this is one of the things that you have to put up with when recruiting. There's no way around it-- but, remember that Jesus told us that we would be persecuted for our beliefs (not that I consider a random schlub "yelling" at me on a message board persecution compared to a Rwandan being put to death for his beliefs).

However, you know how some people say that if you can get through the first two years and make profit, then your business will work? Well, if you can get through the first 3 months of recruiting, all of a sudden people start coming to you. We now have to boot inactive members because there is a cap of 100 members in our guild, and we're nearly out of inactive members to boot. I haven't made a recruiting post in 9 months, and we're averaging about 8 new members a month.

What I'm saying is that although it won't be easy, go ahead and make those recruiting posts if you feel God leading you to.

 

[Lygernight]

I think my biggest hurdle is that it doesn't help when there are none to start with in your guild. I also don't know the new rules/regs about posting "new Christian Guild Recruiting" in the new Guild Recruiting channels in large cities. I would think since it's a channel people actually have to join that blizzard might not have a problem with it. I know in general chats however they aren't to happy about it...I do it though from time to time, rarely, and when the general chat isn't full of people who will likely chastize the post for it.

I'm still working on establishing the website for us, I know if I can establish the site, and manage to get a few to join that in time it will grow with prayer. Having the site done, and having a few "core" players will help us take a step in the right direction, as well as establishing the rules upfront. I know there will always be arguments and disagreements, but it's like you said, being that we all would be like minded in Christ it certainly makes us more vulnerable towards each other as well as helping us be more understanding and forgiving.

 

[DoctorWho]

Have you found a home yet?

I'm still working on establishing the website for us, I know if I can establish the site, and manage to get a few to join that in time it will grow with prayer. Having the site done, and having a few "core" players will help us take a step in the right direction, as well as establishing the rules upfront.

Lygernight I might be able to help you with website hosting. You would be subhosted, meaning your website would be something like http://yourguild.gamehosts.net The domain used to be used by my old business (hopefully the Lord will bless it again at some date) but is currently being converted over to help me promote my gamers ministry that the Lord is leading me to start. Please send me a PM if you think I can help.

Thanks,
Doc

 

[kal_el42]

Hey Lygernight, are you still looking into starting this? I would be interested in joining.

 

[Goblit]

TOJ a CGA alliance member run by TEK7 does allow nonChristians into its World of Warcraft guild Redeemed. See the TOJ World of warcraft section of these forums for more information. This is the same guild that moved from Illidan a while ago.

 

[Durruck]

Especially with the way Blizzard has set up their rules and Code of Conduct you can no longer express religious beliefs in game in general chat areas. You have to go out of the game on their forums and post the information. So I have to not only announce I'm recruiting for this guild, but then have to answer tell after tell that we're a Christian guild and deal with people's attitudes from there after.

It truly is one of the most difficult area's to try and tackle. How can one start a Christian Guild without talking about it? The best thing I've found at the moment, is to allow all users to join explaining upfront who we are and what we're about. I will agree and say it's not the greatest way to go about it, but it's the best I could come up with. I truly want to make friends on this server, especially fellow believers in Christ, it's so difficult though. And I feel changing servers would be beneficial but my friend and I have already spent time on the servers we're on and have established decent leveled characters....so now what abondon and begin anew? Not a likely course of action, but would help in some aspects.

I'm not so sure this is true. I think that in the guild recruiting channel, you can say pretty much whatever you want about the basis and requirements of your guild. The whole channel was created after Blizz lost a discrimination lawsuit when a GM was recruiting for her lesbians only guild and was told by a GM that she couldn't advertise such a guild in /general. There was no place that she was allowed to spam...so now there is /guildrecruitment (/GR)

If a gay guild can advertise in /GR, I would assume that the same would hold true for a Christian guild.

As for spamming in /general to recruit for guilds...ugh. I strongly dislike it when people do this..it usually gets annoying with the high rate of spamming. I left /general a long time ago. I only use it in the beta because there are a lot of helpful people there.

 

[notashamed]

Hello Lygernight, I am the guild leader of Mustard Seed Conspiracy (MSC), ToJ's Horde guild on Cenarius. Cenarius is a PvE server while the Alliance guild Redeemed on Stonemaul is a PvP server. We have been in the process of starting anew, and if you are interested, we could use some strong leadership with a good knowledge of WoW and websites. At this time we do not allow Non-Christians to be apart of MSC. This is so that we build on a foundation of Christians. While there are some that disagree with me on this decision, it was not made lightly and without prayer. There are lots of people in the WoW chapter, that I'm sure would be willing to give you tips on starting a Christian guild. Please feel free to seek our help in whatever you need, and let me know if you are interested in my offer. Otherwise good luck!

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

TOJ a CGA alliance member run by TEK7 does allow nonChristians into its World of Warcraft guild Redeemed. See the TOJ World of warcraft section of these forums for more information. This is the same guild that moved from Illidan a while ago.

To clarify on Goblit's point:

Tribe of Judah developed a Sponsorship Program to allow non-members to join Tribe of Judah's MMO guilds. The Program was developed in response to members asking if their non-Christian spouse, family member, or close friend could join the guild so they would not have to sacrifice a Christian gaming environment to play with their loved one.

The choice whether or not to use the Sponsorship Program is left to the discretion of the Guild Leader. At this time, Redeemed's Guild Leaders have opted to use the Program, while Mustard Seed Conspiracy's Guild Leader has chosen not to use the Program.

Membership in Tribe of Judah still requires agreement to the ToJ charter as well as a personal profession of faith in Christ as Savior. Non-Christians are not eligible to join Tribe of Judah, but non-Christians are allowed, under strict circumstances and pending approval of Redeemed Guild Leaders, to join guilds led and managed by Tribe of Judah.

For more information on Tribe of Judah's Sponsorship Program, please see this thread. Please note that I am currently reviewing suggested changes to the Sponsorship Program and that the Program is subject to change.

You can find the Tribe of Judah World of Warcraft Forums here.

On a side note: Redeemed was known as Choose Joy on Illidan before its move to Stonemaul. Some who have not been in contact with the guild for a long while may know it by its former name.

Hey Lygernight, are you still looking into starting this? I would be interested in joining.

Unfortunately, Lygernight disbanded Order of Misfits a few months back. He asked me to remove the guild from our List of Christian World of Warcraft guilds.

His forum account is still active, so you can send him a PM, but the last post I can find that he made is dated Feb. 18, 2006.

EDIT: Since Lygernight's question was answered and since his last post on the thread was made over eight months ago, I'm going to go ahead and close this thread.

If anyone has questions regarding the process or requirements for a Christian gaming group or web site joining the Christian Gamers Alliance, please contact me via PM.