Stephen F. Roberts quote

This was a thing to ponder for me last night. I even had a dream that related, (a way God speaks to us that I had forgotten!). I think we misinterpret the mustard seed, perhaps. I am saying, "Look at my faith!!" While I am in hopes that it is growing...it is not as much as I would like. To never doubt God in any way would be heavenly to me! I trust Him at His Word. I know He can do whatever it is He wills. My lack of faith comes sometimes in the question, "Will He/does He want to do it for me?" No matter how I slice it, that shows a lack of faith on my part, not measuring up to the size of a mustard seed.
I was reading today in Luke:

And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. 17:6

being this is Luke's account of Jesus speaking on faith he had much to say, and it really takes so little...but still more than I may THINK I have!!
 
We're getting away from the point of the narrative.

Christ is saying that all you need is the smallest amount of faith and you can move mountains or trees. But as you have said, this is not so since God tends to nullify that power.

So why did he say it if wasn't true? How much faith DOES it take to stop a hurricane or typhoon? Or for that matter, how much faith does it take to move a mustard seed?
 
I'm stepping off the sideline, mind if I jump in kind of late? of course you guys dont...
Every post in this thread is a nail in the coffin for me here. Seriously, why continue any discussion when it just comes down to a series of personal beliefs that can't be shared with anyone else? There's just no point.
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^ this is one of your quotes that stuck out from page 2, and I would say theres more to life than the world wide web. I find the irony of life is that everyone has more to say than they are willing to listen to. (if you know what I mean great, if you don't just throw it off as nonsensical ramble, because I can't explain further)
If all your looking for is solid evidence, then you should physically talk to solid christians, solid muslims, solid buhdists etc etc...
Go talk to some people, I was surprised how willing people are to talk to strangers when I started stepping out of my comfort(sp?) zone.

For what its worth I see what you are saying about logic and reason. Whats funny is how life experience seems to outweigh what you know to be possible
I believe that is exactly what the verse implies, however, I don't believe it's true.

How many believers prayed fervently while a tsunami or hurricane headed right towards them only to have their prayers cut short by nature's fury?

So much for that one, single mustard seed of faith.
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Mustard seed verses are misinterpreted alot. Is the location of massive piles of dirt or an easy way to uproot a tree really relevant in any way? If you look through the eyes of a modern American, these verses are not only untrue, but pointless.
I'll let you in on a little seceret DV if you promise not to tell anyone you heard from me ;) . To Christians, spreading the news that changed thier life seems impossible because of the responses Christians get from nonbelievers. What is more important to Christains? moving dirt, or spreading eternal life? Like uprooting a great tree, or moving a mountain, spreading eternal life seems impossible. I have faith, and I have been given life eternal. Jesus did not tell the disciples how to move mountains after moving a mountain Himself. Jesus gave the mountain analogy after casting out a demon...
In Acts thousands of people were added to the church daily. That would be moving mountains.
How many believers after hit by a hurricane or tsunami are dead? I know you have your mind made up, but then, wheres your faith?
 
Master~Plan said:
In Acts thousands of people were added to the church daily. That would be moving mountains.
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A hanky waving amen to your entire post!
I don't think most of us will ever have need to move any physical mountains in our lives. However, as we grow in Christ, we will have gigantic Spiritual mountains in our own lives, and those in the lives of friends and loved ones. You are right, the miracle of seeing Spiritual mountains moved are more, so much more important. At times, they seem all the more difficult, too. Oh, that we would cry out to God as if we were physically moving them ourselves! I have yet to pray so faithfully, diligently, and fervently that I sweet blood.
 
Master~Plan said:
I'm stepping off the sideline, mind if I jump in kind of late? of course you guys dont...

^ this is one of your quotes that stuck out from page 2, and I would say theres more to life than the world wide web. I find the irony of life is that everyone has more to say than they are willing to listen to. (if you know what I mean great, if you don't just throw it off as nonsensical ramble, because I can't explain further)
If all your looking for is solid evidence, then you should physically talk to solid christians, solid muslims, solid buhdists etc etc...
Go talk to some people, I was surprised how willing people are to talk to strangers when I started stepping out of my comfort(sp?) zone.
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If that's what I wanted to do, I could, however, that's not my intention. You forget that I was a Christian for many years, so I've already had the discourse you are referring to. I already know that I am not going to find the evidence I need to believe in God, again, that's not why I'm here.

For what its worth I see what you are saying about logic and reason. Whats funny is how life experience seems to outweigh what you know to be possible
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What's funny is that you realize what I'm saying about logic and reason, but you don't use them to justify your belief in God. Yet, I am willing to wager, that you use logic and reason in every other aspect of your life. Do you look both ways before you cross the street, even though God is watching over you? Of course you do.

Mustard seed verses are misinterpreted alot. Is the location of massive piles of dirt or an easy way to uproot a tree really relevant in any way? If you look through the eyes of a modern American, these verses are not only untrue, but pointless.
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Well that's an interesting take.

I'll let you in on a little seceret DV if you promise not to tell anyone you heard from me ;) . To Christians, spreading the news that changed thier life seems impossible because of the responses Christians get from nonbelievers. What is more important to Christains? moving dirt, or spreading eternal life? Like uprooting a great tree, or moving a mountain, spreading eternal life seems impossible. I have faith, and I have been given life eternal. Jesus did not tell the disciples how to move mountains after moving a mountain Himself. Jesus gave the mountain analogy after casting out a demon...
In Acts thousands of people were added to the church daily. That would be moving mountains.
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AH, so you believe it to be an analogy. Interesting. How does one determine what is literal and what is figurative? It sounded pretty literal to me.

How many believers after hit by a hurricane or tsunami are dead? I know you have your mind made up, but then, wheres your faith?
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That's my point, which you have failed to address. If these believers had only the slightest amount of faith, why couldn't they divert a measley little hurricane?

Where's my faith? You can't be serious.
 
Quote: "What's funny is that you realize what I'm saying about logic and reason, but you don't use them to justify your belief in God."
God is not a principle or law. God is a being. Proving Him is like proving that a person can't speak. If this person refuses to speak around you, empirically you can only say that he can't speak. Yet if others heard this person speak before and told you that, you would probably believe, even though that would be anecdotal evidence and not backed up by solid reason.

Quote: "Yet, I am willing to wager, that you use logic and reason in every other aspect of your life. Do you look both ways before you cross the street, even though God is watching over you? Of course you do."

God gave us senses and reason for use in the world, but he did not design ears to hear the Heavens or eyes to see angels. Of course, He can change that temporarily if He feels like it. Therefore, the things we can do on our own God apparently chooses not to intervene.

Quote: "AH, so you believe it to be an analogy. Interesting. How does one determine what is literal and what is figurative? It sounded pretty literal to me. That's my point, which you have failed to address. If these believers had only the slightest amount of faith, why couldn't they divert a measley little hurricane?"

It is potentially literal, but God does not give power in the sense that it's bestowed upon us to use at our disposal. Why? Because we don't have the wisdom to use such power. Sure we could knock back a typhoon; but we would probably smash a few annoying people too. God empowers us, but does not act like a computer game magic buff; He's more like another player. His presence enables us to perform amazing tasks, but at the same time He can choose not to help us. Why? That's His decision.

Quote: "Where's my faith? You can't be serious"

Whether you like it or not, you have faith one way or another. You cannot prove to us or yourself with reason that your senses perceive things that are really real (including the text I am writing here). But you trust your senses anyway. That's faith.

Essentially, you don't try to prove and determine and explain anything that has conscience and free will on its own. Especially if this free will is paired with all-power and all-goodness.
God has free will too. So let's not think that we can fit His definition into a box to put inside our brains.

Logic does not overcome choice. That's how Neo beatdown Agent Smith. A set program cannot explain a conscious being.
 
Dark Virtue said:
That's my point, which you have failed to address. If these believers had only the slightest amount of faith, why couldn't they divert a measley little hurricane?

Where's my faith? You can't be serious.
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I oftentimes wish that my faith and trust were so much larger than they are. For you see, I too ask, "Why?" I am in good company, because I think even the greatest of saints have asked. Even Jesus on the Cross asked God:



And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

And yet, God has many, "whys," for us also.

And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. Matthew 8:26

Maybe that is just normal in relationships, at least the ones in dealing with us mortals. Why must we suffer such tragedies? We ain't in Heaven yet!!! Truly, so much that we suffer is simply a matter of our sin.

I prayed so diligently as Rita ventured toward us. I am thankful that the logical scientist didn't seem to have a grasp on what was expected; Rita was to be so much worse. I don't understand it all, but I know the One Who guides the winds and seas.

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:4

Do we simply not have enough faith? Why do we get no as an answer? I am grateful in spite of it all that the One who cares for the sparrows watches over me...over each of us. There are probably as many ways to explain tragedy as there are tragedies.

I was curious after Rita had passed, for those who were spared, how many thanked and praised Him? I do know many turned to Him before and after the fact. Sometimes He speaks the loudest in tragedy...or rather, we listen the loudest!

Not explanations that are easy, yet I will not shake my fist and Him in anger or accuse Him of anything but goodness. I think it is obvious to even you that He is very longsuffering. He is very generous in what He offers us as a free gift. He could have simply left us alone, and we, like in the days of Noah would have perished. Wait!! Before you say not fair, it took 100 years to build the ark and the people were getting warned all the time. They chose not believe and they got to live as they wished for their lifetime...it was a choice, their choice! I don't understand it all. I am the first one to cry, and always try to be fair...nevertheless, I believe that He is fair in spite of my lack of understanding, and my choice is to trust Him.

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32
 
Azzie said:
Quote: "What's funny is that you realize what I'm saying about logic and reason, but you don't use them to justify your belief in God."
God is not a principle or law. God is a being. Proving Him is like proving that a person can't speak. If this person refuses to speak around you, empirically you can only say that he can't speak. Yet if others heard this person speak before and told you that, you would probably believe, even though that would be anecdotal evidence and not backed up by solid reason.
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Eh? You're comparing the physical to the supernatural, therefore, your analogy can't work. Moreover, you've missed my point on using reason in your everyday life.

Quote: "Yet, I am willing to wager, that you use logic and reason in every other aspect of your life. Do you look both ways before you cross the street, even though God is watching over you? Of course you do."

God gave us senses and reason for use in the world, but he did not design ears to hear the Heavens or eyes to see angels. Of course, He can change that temporarily if He feels like it. Therefore, the things we can do on our own God apparently chooses not to intervene.
Click to expand...

According to you, God designed us as physical, corporeal beings, limited to our physical senses. Yet he removes himself from any way, shape or form of detection. That doesn't make much sense. And why show himself to many, many people in the olden days, but no one today?

Quote: "AH, so you believe it to be an analogy. Interesting. How does one determine what is literal and what is figurative? It sounded pretty literal to me. That's my point, which you have failed to address. If these believers had only the slightest amount of faith, why couldn't they divert a measley little hurricane?"

It is potentially literal, but God does not give power in the sense that it's bestowed upon us to use at our disposal. Why? Because we don't have the wisdom to use such power. Sure we could knock back a typhoon; but we would probably smash a few annoying people too. God empowers us, but does not act like a computer game magic buff; He's more like another player. His presence enables us to perform amazing tasks, but at the same time He can choose not to help us. Why? That's His decision.
Click to expand...

POTENTIALLY literal? Is it literal or not? And how did you come to that conclusion?

Quote: "Where's my faith? You can't be serious"

Whether you like it or not, you have faith one way or another. You cannot prove to us or yourself with reason that your senses perceive things that are really real (including the text I am writing here). But you trust your senses anyway. That's faith.

Essentially, you don't try to prove and determine and explain anything that has conscience and free will on its own. Especially if this free will is paired with all-power and all-goodness.
God has free will too. So let's not think that we can fit His definition into a box to put inside our brains.

Logic does not overcome choice. That's how Neo beatdown Agent Smith. A set program cannot explain a conscious being.
Click to expand...

As I have stated many, MANY times, there is a huge difference between faith and Faith.
 
Marcylene said:
I oftentimes wish that my faith and trust were so much larger than they are. For you see, I too ask, "Why?" I am in good company, because I think even the greatest of saints have asked. Even Jesus on the Cross asked God:



And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

And yet, God has many, "whys," for us also.

And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. Matthew 8:26

Maybe that is just normal in relationships, at least the ones in dealing with us mortals. Why must we suffer such tragedies? We ain't in Heaven yet!!! Truly, so much that we suffer is simply a matter of our sin.

I prayed so diligently as Rita ventured toward us. I am thankful that the logical scientist didn't seem to have a grasp on what was expected; Rita was to be so much worse. I don't understand it all, but I know the One Who guides the winds and seas.

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:4

Do we simply not have enough faith? Why do we get no as an answer? I am grateful in spite of it all that the One who cares for the sparrows watches over me...over each of us. There are probably as many ways to explain tragedy as there are tragedies.

I was curious after Rita had passed, for those who were spared, how many thanked and praised Him? I do know many turned to Him before and after the fact. Sometimes He speaks the loudest in tragedy...or rather, we listen the loudest!

Not explanations that are easy, yet I will not shake my fist and Him in anger or accuse Him of anything but goodness. I think it is obvious to even you that He is very longsuffering. He is very generous in what He offers us as a free gift. He could have simply left us alone, and we, like in the days of Noah would have perished. Wait!! Before you say not fair, it took 100 years to build the ark and the people were getting warned all the time. They chose not believe and they got to live as they wished for their lifetime...it was a choice, their choice! I don't understand it all. I am the first one to cry, and always try to be fair...nevertheless, I believe that He is fair in spite of my lack of understanding, and my choice is to trust Him.

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32
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So do you believe that faith is SO difficult to come by, that the common Christian doesn't even have a mustard seed's worth?

Not explanations that are easy, yet I will not shake my fist and Him in anger or accuse Him of anything but goodness. I think it is obvious to even you that He is very longsuffering. He is very generous in what He offers us as a free gift. He could have simply left us alone, and we, like in the days of Noah would have perished. Wait!! Before you say not fair, it took 100 years to build the ark and the people were getting warned all the time. They chose not believe and they got to live as they wished for their lifetime...it was a choice, their choice! I don't understand it all. I am the first one to cry, and always try to be fair...nevertheless, I believe that He is fair in spite of my lack of understanding, and my choice is to trust Him.
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Marcy, this is either a lie or an egregious error.

What you are saying is that God basically gave humanity 100 years to learn the error of their ways. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE!

Gen 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out.

This CLEARLY shows that God's intention was to murder "all people", to "destroy both them and the earth". He didn't say all people EXCEPT for those that head my warning. Where did he issue a warning and to whom? According to the verses above, God spoke directly to Noah, not to anyone else. Nor did God order Noah to convince anyone of the error of their ways or to issue any kind of warning. And even if he HAD, how many people could Noah have possibly come in contact with? He was busy with ark and didnt have time to make a global journey and issue a warning to all of mankind. If you can find verses to the contrary, please let me know.

Would you also mind explaining why you believe it took him 100 years to build the ark? We are told the exact date when the rain started, but not when construction began. Gen 5:32 says that AFTER Noah was 500 years old he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth. It doesn't say ANYWHERE that he started the ark when he was 500.

Answer: How long did it take Noah to build the ark? The Bible does not specifically say how long it took Noah to build the ark. When Noah is first mentioned in Genesis 5:32, he was 500 years old. When Noah entered the ark, he was 600 years old. The time it took to build the ark would depend on how much time had passed between Genesis 5:32 and the time that God commanded Noah to build the ark (Genesis 6:14-21). At the absolute most, it took 100 years. From: http://www.gotquestions.org/Noahs-ark-questions.html

Sorry Marcy, but I think you've made a HUGE booboo.
 
I think we have fallen into an all to common trap at looking at the results, instead of the meat of a verse.

If you have faith.......
 
^hey, looks like you got your hands full of responses DV. I guess I'll throw mine into the pile because you were responding to me
I already know that I am not going to find the evidence I need to believe in God, again, that's not why I'm here.
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hah, why are you here? why am I talking to you? you already know the future...
What's funny is that you realize what I'm saying about logic and reason, but you don't use them to justify your belief in God. Yet, I am willing to wager, that you use logic and reason in every other aspect of your life. Do you look both ways before you cross the street, even though God is watching over you? Of course you do.
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You lost me, your goint to have to be more specific. When did I not use loginc to defend my beliefs? I understand miracles defy logic, but my beliefs do not. I use logic in every aspect of my life.
AH, so you believe it to be an analogy. Interesting. How does one determine what is literal and what is figurative? It sounded pretty literal to me.
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your right, it does sound literal(after written down, and translated), but Jesus did not act literally on it. Jesus never moved a mountain while in human form, or throw any trees into the ocean. So we can logically conclude that since he finished casting out a demon when he told the analogy, that it pertains to saving the lost.
That's my point, which you have failed to address. If these believers had only the slightest amount of faith, why couldn't they divert a measley little hurricane?

Where's my faith? You can't be serious.
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heh, no I was not being serious about your faith. You missed my point. The verse is not talking about diverting natural disaster, its about spreading eternal life, so that death has no effect. If they had the slightest bit of faith, they are saved from the hurricane. "to live is Christ, to die is gain"
 
one more add on:
And why show himself to many, many people in the olden days, but no one today?
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Why do you confidently say no one today? God has revealed Himself to me. I know other people with incredible stories, who have had supernatural experiences also. Don't be so quick to make assumptions.
 
Master~Plan said:
^hey, looks like you got your hands full of responses DV. I guess I'll throw mine into the pile because you were responding to me

hah, why are you here? why am I talking to you? you already know the future...
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Eh? I've stated and restated why I'm here. Do I know the future? No, I don't claim to be omniscient.

You lost me, your goint to have to be more specific. When did I not use loginc to defend my beliefs? I understand miracles defy logic, but my beliefs do not. I use logic in every aspect of my life.
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You use logic in every aspect of your life EXCEPT when it comes to believing/relying on something that can't be proven by logic. That was my point.

your right, it does sound literal(after written down, and translated), but Jesus did not act literally on it. Jesus never moved a mountain while in human form, or throw any trees into the ocean. So we can logically conclude that since he finished casting out a demon when he told the analogy, that it pertains to saving the lost.
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So is it literal or not? Not SOUNDS literal, is it or not? Sorry bub, but you can't logically conclude ANYTHING in the bible. This isn't about what Christ did, it's about what Christ said believers could do with a miniscule amount of faith. If it's literal, then believers should either be able to do the miraculous or faith is INCREDIBLY difficult to come by, so much so that the majority of Christians fail to acheive even a mustard seed's worth. If it's figurative, well, then who cares since you can make it say whatever you want.

heh, no I was not being serious about your faith. You missed my point. The verse is not talking about diverting natural disaster, its about spreading eternal life, so that death has no effect. If they had the slightest bit of faith, they are saved from the hurricane. "to live is Christ, to die is gain"
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EH? The verse is about eternal life? Now that's some creative thinking.
 
Master~Plan said:
one more add on:

Why do you confidently say no one today? God has revealed Himself to me. I know other people with incredible stories, who have had supernatural experiences also. Don't be so quick to make assumptions.
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I think you know precisely what I meant, but since you want to be piddly, I'll spell it out clearly.

Why doesn't God show himself today, as he did in the Old Testament, with pillars of smoke and fire, burning bushes, loud booming voice, manna from heaven, plagues, etc. Why doesn't he converse in a physical voice so men can hear him? To get down to brass tacks, why does he not prove himself to humanity? And when I say PROVE, I mean with real, solid, incontrovertible proof? And don't give me the tired answer of free will yadda yadda yadda, because God obviously doesn't give a flip about free will, just look at the hardening of hearts, etc in the OT.
 
So do you believe that faith is SO difficult to come by, that the common Christian doesn't even have a mustard seed's worth?
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Considering that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, I suppose that would vary by how much I am in the Word of God.
Marcy, this is either a lie or an egregious error.
What you are saying is that God basically gave humanity 100 years to learn the error of their ways. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE!
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OUCH! Please, go easy! I don't think it is fair of you to assume that I would deliberately mislead you, nor lie to you. I would be in hopes that you know me better than that!
Yes sir, that was His intentions. But think about this:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. II Peter 3:9

When God pulls out His vials of wrath, it is not spur of the moment. He weeps for us. He yearns for us. He loves us.
Where did he issue a warning and to whom? According to the verses above, God spoke directly to Noah, not to anyone else. Nor did God order Noah to convince any one of the error of their ways or to issue any kind of warning. And even if he HAD, how many people could Noah have possibly come in contact with? He was busy with ark and didn't have time to make a global journey and issue a warning to all of mankind. If you can find verses to the contrary, please let me know.
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Genesis 6:9 Noah walked with God and Noah was a preacher:
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; II Peter 2:5

Consider the times. There were sacrifices, preaching, building, gathering the animals, ect. There are things that we can read between the lines, and no, DV, I do not mean in an attempt to misconstrue anything, I mean simply...well, reading between the lines!
At the absolute most, it took 100 years. From: http://www.gotquestions.org/Noahs-ark-questions.html
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I will go with that. But I also know a bit about the One I love, and He gave them all a chance. I would stake my life on it, DV.

Sorry Marcy, but I think you've made a HUGE booboo.
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Pretty please sir, if you will, pass the band-aids!
 
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