suffering?

[Zeena]

Yes Jeshurun , He is without blemish..And always was


Baby Christians are every bit as perfect as Jesus, thier Father

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Hebrews 7:19
(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Colossians 1:28
We proclaim Him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

They must, however submit themselves to Jesus, who has become mature by the things that He suffered..

Romans 10:3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Philippians 3:15
All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

Heb 5:9 [KJV] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The tense "being made" in Strongs Concordance..
G1096
γίνομαι [Hebrew]
ginomai [Greek]
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

The word "perfect" in Strong Concordance..
teleioō [Greek]
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Hebrews 7:14-28
14for [it is] evident that out of Judah hath arisen our Lord, in regard to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest,
16who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life,
17for He doth testify -- `Thou [art] a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
18for a disannulling indeed doth come of the command going before because of its weakness, and unprofitableness,
19(for nothing did the law perfect) and the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw nigh to God.
20And inasmuch as [it is] not apart from oath, (for those indeed apart from oath are become priests,
21and he with an oath through Him who is saying unto him, `The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;')
22by so much of a better covenant hath Jesus become surety,
23and those indeed are many who have become priests, because by death they are hindered from remaining;

24and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,
25whence also he is able to save to the very end, those coming through him unto God -- ever living to make intercession for them.
26For such a chief priest did become us -- kind, harmless, undefiled, separate from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens,
27who hath no necessity daily, as the chief priests, first for his own sins to offer up sacrifice, then for those of the people; for this he did once, having offered up himself;
28for the law doth appoint men chief priests, having infirmity, but the word of the oath that [is] after the law [appointeth] the Son -- to the age having been perfected.

Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

 

[Shyfroggy]

I read a good quote today that related to this thread...

"Those who have suffered much are like those who know many languages; they have learned to understand all and to be understood by all."

I can't help but think - that would be Jesus!

 

[cc.slim]

clank clank clank man getting this spiritual armor on is tough and that darn'd ol devil keeps jabbin'n me in all my exposed spots clank clank clank hey has anybody seen my rear cover plate ow ow kinda tender there.. hehehe watch by the time I get all this armor on sumthin will happen GOSH!!!!

 

[Shyfroggy]

oh the armor - quite difficult to get on sometimes...quite difficult at times to obtain the armour.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

Actually, Most pieces are quite easy to obtain. It is a matter of us putting them on that comes the problem.

Helmet of salvation is placed on your head the moment you accept Christ.
Its the rest that are hard to put on because they take a concious effort.

 

[Shyfroggy]

Yeah but sometimes life circumstances and situations can make those conscious efforts feel unreachable...

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

AH, but that is when you need the Lord to help you put your armor on. Else you will be unprepared for those circumstances. Remember, the Voctory is ours, The Battle is the Lord's. He only calls us to Stand!

 

[Zeena]

AH, but that is when you need the Lord to help you put your armor on. Else you will be unprepared for those circumstances. Remember, the Voctory is ours, The Battle is the Lord's. He only calls us to Stand!

He is our armor

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

We can't stand against nothing, for we are created as slaves, either to unrighteousness, and ever increasing dishonour.. Or to Righteousness and ever increasing Glory (of the Lord Jesus)

He does not "help" us don His armor, for ONLY HE can wear it

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

Ummm I have to disagree. Paul calls us in Ephesians 6:10-18

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, F19 against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

God provides our armor, we wear it. However, only HE can give it to us. THough we are only expected to stand. not to fight. We are to stand and Withstand. (You would be surprised at how hard it is to do just that...)

Make sense?

 

[Zeena]

I have NO idea how you can disagree with that..Tis biblically sound doctrine..

What are the attributes of this armor?
Are not the fruits thereof the same fruits of the spirit mentioned in the Holy Spirit of Jesus?

What do you do with all these scriptures?

Galatians 5:22a
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance
Ephesians 5:9
For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Ephesians 5:19
but be filled with the Spirit

It's our duty to submit to Him..

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Acts 2:26
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit quickeneth

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Mark 14:38
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

What did you recieve when you repented of your sin and turned in Faith to Jesus for forgivenss? Did you not recieve His Life? His OVERCOMING Life?

Mark 10:8
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
John 6:52
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
John 6:53-55
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Luke 22:46
And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

 

[Shyfroggy]

the thread was originally started about suffering - not God's armor...

And its mighty easy to talk about God's will and doing things under God's will when you aren't feeling like that God has abandoned you...

It's quite simple when life is good.

It's also quite simple when life is not so good....just becomes a bit more difficult to apply...

 

[Genesis1315]

Perhaps we are given those difficult times, ones of suffering so that we can learn to praise Him through anything...sacrifice of praise

Gen

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

Suffering is a natural part of life. Even Jesus suffered and felt that He had been abandoned.

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Job even felt discouraged and suffered greatly. (not going to put the whole book here... Would take up too much space.. )

What I am saying is that it is natural. All we can do is pray through it and lean against our fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ, sharing with them and allowing them to help us with the hurt.
However, one must allow others close enough to see the suffering and to pray for the suffering. Many people do not want others to see the suffering they are going through. (I am one of them.)

God may feel far away, however, when have feelings ever really proven to be the best thing to follow?

 

[Amicus Dei of [FoG]]

I have a question - do you think God allows suffering and pain in an attempt to make us perfect? or strive to get us as close to perfect as He is?

i think the wierdest way to say this is...

if a human uses punishment on me, i feel like it is wrong and they could have just said "stop" and tada i stop. it obviously isn't their job is it? the bible says not to judge, and punishment is created after judgement... so it is in fact, God's job to do as he so pleases.
tada, God enforces punishment (i.e. sickness that changed daily like last time ) and kaboom i don't want to do that again o.o

so indeed, punishment is a way to light a fire under us to help us stop our sins, so that we will not be punished eternally in the fires of *beep*.

which would you rather have: a few fires along this short earthly lifetime or constant fire FOREVER? i pick [eeny meeny miney mo... just joking ]
NUMBER ONE
numero uno
numerum unum

one example of the punishment vs. tell me:
punishment - 8th & 9th grade; geometry & algebra II
the teacher was pretty much a devil in female teacher's clothing. she would bite your head off, chew, spit it out, throw it on the ground, stomp all over it, and throw dirt on it if you accidentally missed an assignment... which i did often. i could not STAND her class, and i had her for *gulp* two years consecutively o.o . the last day of 9th grade, i quickly fled the school and RAN to my friend's house so we could hang out as planned. RAN. i was afraid my teacher would pop up out of nowhere with fire around her and chain me up yelling, "DON'T LEAVE YOU FAILED!" (though i ended up with like a low B)
another reason i'm glad i escaped is, i no longer hate her because she's now just a person not the evil 3rd period teacher... therefore escaping 9th grade with my life, broken as it was, took away one grudge that put me as a super-sinner... *phew*

tell me - 10th grade; pre-calculus I
after 8th/9th grade, i don't know how to gauge this teacher other than she teaches the sugeriest, most candy-coated math class known to human-kind... i am amazed at nearly everything we do in her class; the due dates for assignments are not day-by-day but rather all of chapter 1 assignments are due on Ch. 1's test day, and so on... the reviews for test perhaps shocked me most because 8th/9th grade had from 60-80 questions on EVERY review... i looked at the first review in my precal class and wondered what happened to the other three pages, because it had exactly 20 questions.
wow, i wrote a book... i should publish it.

 

[Zeena]

i think the wierdest way to say this is...

if a human uses punishment on me, i feel like it is wrong and they could have just said "stop" and tada i stop. it obviously isn't their job is it? the bible says not to judge, and punishment is created after judgement... so it is in fact, God's job to do as he so pleases.
tada, God enforces punishment (i.e. sickness that changed daily like last time ) and kaboom i don't want to do that again o.o

so indeed, punishment is a way to light a fire under us to help us stop our sins, so that we will not be punished eternally in the fires of *beep*.

which would you rather have: a few fires along this short earthly lifetime or constant fire FOREVER? i pick [eeny meeny miney mo... just joking ]
NUMBER ONE
numero uno
numerum unum

one example of the punishment vs. tell me:
punishment - 8th & 9th grade; geometry & algebra II
the teacher was pretty much a devil in female teacher's clothing. she would bite your head off, chew, spit it out, throw it on the ground, stomp all over it, and throw dirt on it if you accidentally missed an assignment... which i did often. i could not STAND her class, and i had her for *gulp* two years consecutively o.o . the last day of 9th grade, i quickly fled the school and RAN to my friend's house so we could hang out as planned. RAN. i was afraid my teacher would pop up out of nowhere with fire around her and chain me up yelling, "DON'T LEAVE YOU FAILED!" (though i ended up with like a low B)
another reason i'm glad i escaped is, i no longer hate her because she's now just a person not the evil 3rd period teacher... therefore escaping 9th grade with my life, broken as it was, took away one grudge that put me as a super-sinner... *phew*

tell me - 10th grade; pre-calculus I
after 8th/9th grade, i don't know how to gauge this teacher other than she teaches the sugeriest, most candy-coated math class known to human-kind... i am amazed at nearly everything we do in her class; the due dates for assignments are not day-by-day but rather all of chapter 1 assignments are due on Ch. 1's test day, and so on... the reviews for test perhaps shocked me most because 8th/9th grade had from 60-80 questions on EVERY review... i looked at the first review in my precal class and wondered what happened to the other three pages, because it had exactly 20 questions.
wow, i wrote a book... i should publish it.

I find it VERY sad you would think this way about your Father in Heaven...

God does NOT punish His children!
He may "chastise" His children, but NEVER punish!

Genesis 15:14
But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I find it VERY sad you would think this way about your Father in Heaven...

God does NOT punish His children!
He may "chastise" His children, but NEVER punish!

Genesis 15:14
But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Define chastise and punish.

Wiping out 99.99% of the world in a flood doesn't sound like chastisement to me.

 

[Genesis1315]

For Reference

Biblical Definition of Child of God

John 8:42-44
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn't come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 Why don't you understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.

 

[Zeena]

Punishment involves fear..
And there is no fear in Love, for perfect Love casts out ALL fear

Chastisment from God is for our own good, and God's Glory!

We, as Christians, are VERY happy when we witness the Life of Jesus in us!

Scrourging is God's way of dealing with the flesh (patterns of thinkin, feeling and choosing that have been ingrained into our body, soul and spirit) so that we will be free to serve our God

 

[Dark Virtue]

You went from punishment to chastisement to SCOURGING.

YIKES!

Why does a loving God punish with severity (scourge?)

If I whipped (literally, as in scourged) my child I wouldn't be thought of as loving parent and would probably be sitting in jail.

And there is no fear in Love, for perfect Love casts out ALL fear

Say what? Deut 10: 12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul

If, according to you, love casts out all fear, how are you supposed to fear AND love God?

 

[Zeena]

Added the scripture reference for "2 Peter 2:9-17"

You went from punishment to chastisement to SCOURGING.

YIKES!

Why does a loving God punish with severity (scourge?)

If, according to you, love casts out all fear, how are you supposed to fear AND love God?

2 Thessalonians 1:8
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 2:9-17
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb donkey speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest;to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

But if you really are born again..

Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Then you would be chastised as I am..

Hebrews 12:1-11
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

We SHARE in the sufferings of Christ, so that the Life of Christ might also be revealed in our bodies

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit. But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus is coming back for His bride, are YOU ready to meet your maker? [How's THAT for fear?]

1 Peter 4:12-19
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you:but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy.
If ye are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are ye; because the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God resteth upon you. For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other men's matters:but if a man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this name.

For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?

Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing unto a faithful Creator.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.