The Grand Theft Auto series

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Phrankdatank

New Member
Ok, I have a question, this is more about a friend of mine who is a minister in a Christian group called Chi Alpha, which is basically a Christian youth-group type organization for college kids.

Now, I looked him up on Xbox live and noticed that he was playing Grand Theft Auto 4, and I'm really starting to wonder whether or not I should bring it up or if I should keep silent.

Ok, if I was to play Grand Theft Auto, I would be convicted since I don't see anything at all redeeming about the series. Yes I like Modern Warfare 2 and such, but Grand Theft Auto is not a game I'd like. Now, I used to play Vice City back in 2003 and 2004 before God had me get rid of it, partially due to the fact that I talked about it 24/7/365 at school.

Now, I know there are certain hard and fast things in the Bible(black-and-white areas) that are totally non-negotiable, such as not stealing or murdering, and there are certain grey areas which are governed by convictions.

Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 cover those grey areas, of which at the time Paul wrote those was dealing with foods sacrificed to idols and celebrating certain days, of which Paul basically said "If your conscience allows you to do it and you can avoid making your brother stumble, then you can eat. However if your meat causes your brother to stumble, don't eat it."

Now, I'll vouch for stuff like Modern Warfare 2 as being a grey area(whether your opinion of it is "nothing more than paintball" or whether you think that even Modern Warfare 2 or paintball is bad).

However, does the Grand Theft Auto series fit as part of that grey area, or is it a certain type of game that God would forbid ANY Christian, regardless of personality, to partake in?

Even if it is a grey area, wouldn't a non-believer who saw someone he knew to profess Christ say "He claims to be a Christian but plays games where you can kill innocents. He's a hypocrite"?

Need clarification here.
 
Sure thing.

You don't "kill innocents" in GTA. Nor do you "steal cars". It's a video game, not real life.

Secondly, you may think that playing the game is wrong, and that's fine, but he obviously doesn't, so, er, confronting him about it is not going to lead to anything but problems.

Thirdly, the fact that you think Modern Warfare 2 is a "grey area" and GTA isn't is... interesting.

And fourthly, for the luvva Pete, man, aren't there more worthwhile things to be concerned about than freaking video games? Things like homeless people in Los Angeles or starving children in Africa or the economic policies of our government?

My word. :|
 
I understand where you're coming from, Phrankdatank. I remember seeing the threads back when you were convicted about which games you were playing. It all comes down to which things God convicts you about, and which things that your friend is convicted about.

God works on each of us differently, pushing us towards different things. If your friend playing GTA games doesn't hinder his walk with God, there's no reason to talk to him about it. I had no problem playing Assassin's Creed, where the main character plays is an assassin. But maybe someone else would have problems with that game.

When it comes down to it, it's just a game, but what matters is the reaction that your brain has to it. If you're just pushing pixels on a screen, and can keep that in check, there's no problem.
 
First: I definitely fall into the "it's just a game" camp, for the most part. Harry Potter isn't any more demonic in my mind than Chronicles of Narnia/Lord of the rings. Fantasy is fantasy.

There's a few caveats, though. First, while many things in games are fantasy, some aren't. Foul language in games is real. I mean, does it not count as an f-bomb if someone hears it through a game? Language doesn't bother me personally, but I definitely wouldn't let my daughter listen to that.

As far as violence, I agree completely that "killing" something in game is obviously not the same as killing a real person. However, there is "mild fantasy violence" and then there is "downright sociopathic". It's one thing to be slaying virtual dragons; I think it's something else completely when you are clubbing down prostitutes and running over cops, virtual or not. Some people may draw a more/less conservative line than I do, and that's fine, but I really don't see how being a virtual sadist is totally ok...especially when there are plenty of great games out there without that junk.

Another area is nudity. Games are pretty photo-realistic nowadays, and rife with images of scantily clad (and rediculously proportioned) women. Games have nudity and sex. Simply saying, "It's a video game, not real life" as an excuse to play any inappropriate thing is a complete cop-out. Video game or cartoon porn is ok because it's not real? Or what about 'real' porn...I mean, it's just images on the screen, which aren't real, right? Yeah, I think not.

"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"

Morpheus sums it up well. Also, think about the central theme of the sermon on the mount. Do we really want to be doing these things in our minds and heart? Whether or not there are arguably "more worthwhile" things to think about is completely irrelevent, because it's WORTHWHILE to be worrying about what crud we (and our brothers/sisters) are letting into our hearts.

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Anyway, as far as "should you say something"...if you agree that GTA is bad, then I'd say yes, you should. In fact, you're commanded to.

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction." (2 Tim 4:1-2)

There are several other verses in the bible telling us to point out sin in other believers, but the key is to always do it lovingly. Do it privately. Don't be super judgemental or all holier than thou. In most cases, people will agree completely with you when you approach them on something...because they already knew it was wrong in the first place. The key is doing it without "attacking" and causing their "wall" of defense to go up. Nothing wll be accomplished after that. So just be loving...or you'll only sound like clanging brass to them, regardless of your intentions.
 
RyanB said:
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Anyway, as far as "should you say something"...if you agree that GTA is bad, then I'd say yes, you should. In fact, you're commanded to.

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction." (2 Tim 4:1-2)

There are several other verses in the bible telling us to point out sin in other believers, but the key is to always do it lovingly. Do it privately. Don't be super judgemental or all holier than thou. In most cases, people will agree completely with you when you approach them on something...because they already knew it was wrong in the first place. The key is doing it without "attacking" and causing their "wall" of defense to go up. Nothing wll be accomplished after that. So just be loving...or you'll only sound like clanging brass to them, regardless of your intentions.
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Ok, since me and my XA leader are both friends on facebook, I posted a link in my facebook status that pointed to a blog post by someone on IGN that preaches against GTA 4, linked here if I can:

http://blogs.ign.com/WORDmanrick/2008/04/25/87875/#comments

Would that be good enough, if I was to spam that on my facebook status for about a week?

Yeah, I agree with you that GTA is bad and that there are other great action games out there(like Modern Warfare 2, BFBC2, Halo, and other such games).
 
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Phrankdatank said:
Ok, since me and my XA leader are both friends on facebook, I posted a link in my facebook status that pointed to a blog post by someone on IGN that preaches against GTA 4, linked here if I can:

http://blogs.ign.com/WORDmanrick/2008/04/25/87875/#comments

Would that be good enough, if I was to spam that on my facebook status for about a week?
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That's a bit of a cop-out. You should confront him in person and demand that he throw out his copy of GTA IV and repent of his sin.
 
I'm not sure you can demand anyone to do anything - you can suggest - encourage - exhort - plead - a lot of things - but demand or command? I don't think so...not with a friend.
 
I would definitely approach him but articulate your reasons before doing so. If you can't understand why it's wrong you can't expect to get him to understand why it's wrong. If he is your friend one should be able to have polite discussions where you disagree. Of course do it in love too.

There are a few things you may wish to consider. Firstly killing is not wrong! Murder is wrong. It is not the act itself but the intent and context behind the act that determines if it's right with God (whole lot of war in Old testament and could we even have a Police force if violence was wrong). Games like GTA are wrong because there is no choice but to play the game but by sinning. It rewards and reinforces negative behavior making it seem good or cool to be a criminal. Games work on a system of rewards and I don't think feeling good about committing sinful acts whether virtual or not has a positive effect on one's psyche. It certainly doesn't seem like something one can do for the glory of God.

Basically while everyone has different strengths no one can stop themselves from learning completely and I would not want to be desensitized to doing evil by such a game. I'd ask myself am I enjoying the sinful actions in the game? If so I'd stop playing. Conversely if I'm not enjoying the sinful actions in a game that is all about sinful actions what fun can I get from it? Without fun why play a game?

As far as multiplayer games most have no plot line or sides swap every round so one would be hard put to put some in the context of condoning a particular intent (though one may debate whether one should enjoy an action even if justified) . MW2 swaps terrorist and military every round so it's kind of hard to be for or against someone (and I've never played the single player). Regardless each game must be considered on it's own. It's important to look at games, or any media, and ask not just what is wrong with it but what positives it has. Our lives are not just about avoiding things as one can never be a light to this world if you only do that. We have to choose things that have positive aspect to help improve our world, we have to influence and put something into the world not just pick the lesser of two evils. With GTA it's easy to say it's wrong because I've seen not only negatives but nothing positive about it.

Lazarus said:
That's a bit of a cop-out. You should confront him in person and demand that he throw out his copy of GTA IV and repent of his sin.
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<sarcasm>No you should grow a beard and stand on his driveway with a cardboard sign that says "repent now sinner". It's best done without showering for a few weeks </sarcasm>. :p
 
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Ok, last night me, the XA leader, and some other guys went out to eat and they talked about getting Red Dead Redemption, and the leader asked if I was going to get it, and I said "no" and that those kinds of games didn't appeal to me(RDR is basically GTA with horses set in the 1800s wild west), and I told him that God had convicted me concerning GTA, so I couldn't play it and he complimented me for "standing by my convictions"

I even mentioned my objections against killing pedestrians in GTA and he told me "well you don't HAVE to do bad stuff." Yet on his gamertag I see that he's got the achievement for staying alive for 5 minutes with the 6-star wanted level. For some reason it doesn't seem like God is convicting him over that game, and He has mentioned several times when God has told him to give things up, like destroying some books he had and also another one when God told Him to "Stop watching movies for 6 months" when he was dating his now-wife and they had watched movies constantly together for about 9 months(was manager of a movie rental place).

Another thing he did was see the movie called "Gamer" back in September 2009 but walked out when the sexual stuff started coming up.

I guess his only convictions about these things is "No sex/nudity" type stuff.

Yet he says that he's close to God and that he has prayer and devotional times and everything, and said that he used to have anger problems but got rid of it by having devotional times and growing closer to the Lord. Dunno why God would not convict him over it. Maybe there's an off chance that GTA doesn't affect him?


One other question, is playing the bad guys in RTS and flight simulator games a sin?

Like, playing as the Soviets in Red Alert 2 or Germany in a WW2 RTS game or a WW2 flight simulator?
 
Phrankdatank said:
Maybe there's an off chance that GTA doesn't affect him?
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Maybe it doesn't but I haven't heard of anything positive to be gotten from it. It's also what else you do that shapes ones mind too. If I hear the F word repeated over and over enough it seems to come to mind more often. Ergo I not only try to avoid it but I try to put something else in my mind to guard against it. If your friend reads the Bible 90% of the time and plays GTA 10% he is hopefully going to be more effected by the Bible. Most people playing the game don't have that shield and will be more effected. Thing is by his purchase he still supports the proliferation of such games to people who won't ward it off.

Phrankdatank said:
One other question, is playing the bad guys in RTS and flight simulator games a sin?

Like, playing as the Soviets in Red Alert 2 or Germany in a WW2 RTS game or a WW2 flight simulator?
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In terms of the historic games I'd only object to it if it glorified sinful ideas of the past. History happened so events have to go a certain way but there is a big difference in the coloring one can give to the ideologies that motivated those people. For example I've heard of Jew killing games that people have created and are quite hateful in their rhetoric however if you had a game depicting the holocaust one could either paint it as either a good or bad event. Once again is the intent of the game to reward sinful actions or show them as evil. Bearing that in mind most sim games that you let you play as Germans have an absence of the ideology that drove them. They depict Germans with little more than a name, place and event thus the focus is on the art of warfare not the intent or ideology that drove the battles. In other words a person without prior historical knowledge would be in a vacuum playing some WWII sims because they would not be able to tell which side was good/bad so I don't think it would matter.

"Campy" evil is a lot trickier for me to pin down as I do ponder what constitutes a serious depiction of evil and where the line lies however you still can play the "good" guys in Red Alert 2 so the game has other content than playing "bad" guys. I also understand the enjoyment of being over the top like the old 60's Batman series villains which I almost can't believe would ever actually hurt anyone. If there was a game like that I'd enjoy the silly not the sinning. In that regard I've read GTA does have it's share of silliness but the depths of depravity seem to overshadow it. In short one is meant to feel for it's protagonist and though some even express regret they still continue to sin, most likely being portrayed as bad *** as they can be, and don't have the game option of changing. In fact they can't change or you couldn't call the game Grand Theft Auto. Having a character express regret and then go out to sin more to win rings hollow.

Note: Sorry for the bad *** phrase but I can't think of a substitute for the feelings developers mean to evoke.
 
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Phrankdatank said:
Ok, last night me, the XA leader, and some other guys went out to eat and they talked about getting Red Dead Redemption, and the leader asked if I was going to get it, and I said "no" and that those kinds of games didn't appeal to me(RDR is basically GTA with horses set in the 1800s wild west), and I told him that God had convicted me concerning GTA, so I couldn't play it and he complimented me for "standing by my convictions"

I even mentioned my objections against killing pedestrians in GTA and he told me "well you don't HAVE to do bad stuff." Yet on his gamertag I see that he's got the achievement for staying alive for 5 minutes with the 6-star wanted level. For some reason it doesn't seem like God is convicting him over that game, and He has mentioned several times when God has told him to give things up, like destroying some books he had and also another one when God told Him to "Stop watching movies for 6 months" when he was dating his now-wife and they had watched movies constantly together for about 9 months(was manager of a movie rental place).

Another thing he did was see the movie called "Gamer" back in September 2009 but walked out when the sexual stuff started coming up.

I guess his only convictions about these things is "No sex/nudity" type stuff.

Yet he says that he's close to God and that he has prayer and devotional times and everything, and said that he used to have anger problems but got rid of it by having devotional times and growing closer to the Lord. Dunno why God would not convict him over it. Maybe there's an off chance that GTA doesn't affect him?
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Is he sinning by playing this game? I see this similar to the "drinking" issue. I don't drink, never have. I personally don't see any benefit of it, and lots of negative effects. That being said, a Christian is not sinning by having a drink and I will not confront them on the issue. It is my own personal conviction to not drink. It's my own personal conviction not to play certain games, I should not condemn others for not having the same convictions as myself.


Phrankdatank said:
One other question, is playing the bad guys in RTS and flight simulator games a sin?

Like, playing as the Soviets in Red Alert 2 or Germany in a WW2 RTS game or a WW2 flight simulator?
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Are you adopting a philosophy of murdering civilians or are you wanting to use the different technology/strategies they offer? Not every German agreed with the NAZI agenda (or knew about it completely).

When playing L4D2 as the infected my mission is to "kill" the survivors. I don't see it as bad vs. good. I see it as one team against the other. I concentrate on teamwork, having a good time, and beating the other team or having a good attitude while being beaten.
 
Ok, have a few questions:

1. You know how the Bible warns against worldliness and that if you become a friend to the world you become an enemy of God(James 4:4)? How can one play video games and avoid crossing the line with the Lord?

2. I've been doing research on the internet about things like R-rated movies and M-rated games and the like, and different people seem to have different opinions. Some say as long as there's no porn it's ok. Others, such as what seems to be agreed here, is that stuff like GTA is also bad. Some throw Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, and RPGs that use magic into the "unclean" list. Even others get stricter than that and say "G" rated movies and racing/sports games are ok, and others throw them all out. Is these things a matter of personal conviction(up to a point, obviously pornography and nudity is evil), or is there something else to this?

3. How does one avoid making video games their treasures or idols?
 
1 - I would guess that it's only crossing the line if it interferes with your relationship with God. If you're skipping prayer time, Bible Study time, etc... just to play one more round of whatever - it's gone too far.

2 - I think it's about personal conviction up to a certain point. I'm guessing there is a point that God would say that we've just taken it too far to be healthy, though. But that line could also be different for each of us. You mentioned Harry Potter, and I love this discussion.

I know that there are a lot of people out there that would gasp, but I feel at this point that I'm a fairly solid Christian... and I really enjoyed the HP books. Yes, I said it. I enjoyed them. I read them several times each. I studied them, read companion books, read fan fiction, and then read them again. To the point that it could be considered idolatry. But here's where I think that 1 Cor 10:23 applies here:
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.
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How does it apply? Everything is permissible... meaning, God allows us to do pretty much whatever we want... but not everything is beneficial - that is, not everything will edify God. Not everything will build our relationship with Him. Not everything will bring Him glory and praise and honor.

But it depends on how it is used. For the example of Harry Potter and the depth that I studied it... consider this. I had been out of high school for over 10 years when I read the first HP book. I hadn't read a book for leisure in YEARS. And I got so interested in it, I started studying it - for character development, plot lines, and all the other stuff you do in high school English class, then promptly forget. So I got back into reading, back into studying.

So how does that edify? Because I figured that if I could read HP, I could read the Bible - which is something I had never done. I never even made it through the New Testament. I never even read thru the words...much less studied them to try to understand them. But here I was, reading thousands of pages a month, looking over countless websites for more information.

So I took that excitement for study and put it into the Bible. So because of my little addiction to HP, God turned it around and put me to the task of digging into His Word. Granted that not everyone will have the same thing happen to them, but it's an example of why it's dangerous to just blanket-classify something as evil and useless.

3. How does one avoid making something into an idol? Through reflective thought and serious prayer. You have to take a deep look at yourself and your tendancies to figure out if you're the type of person that could get addicted to gaming, or love your money too much. Or desire the praise of man for your deeds more than reflecting the praise to God.... or... or.... It's a matter of humbling ourselves and making sure that we're serving as we are called to serve.
 
Durruck said:
I know that there are a lot of people out there that would gasp, but I feel at this point that I'm a fairly solid Christian... and I really enjoyed the HP books. Yes, I said it. I enjoyed them. I read them several times each. I studied them, read companion books, read fan fiction, and then read them again. To the point that it could be considered idolatry. But here's where I think that 1 Cor 10:23 applies here:


How does it apply? Everything is permissible... meaning, God allows us to do pretty much whatever we want... but not everything is beneficial - that is, not everything will edify God. Not everything will build our relationship with Him. Not everything will bring Him glory and praise and honor.
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Ok, again I agree up to a certain point... but there are certain things the Bible strictly forbids, such as murder, theft, being covetous, using God's name in vain, idolatry, rebelling against one's parents/authority(unless their commands contradicts a Law of God), practicing witchcraft, and other such things.

Not attacking you for your Harry Potter views, though. I myself used to play WoW but quit due to being too addicted to it, and used to watch Dragon Ball Z but quit that because I was getting way too self-confident instead of relying on God(Dragon Ball Z has a lot of "you have hidden power within you that you can tap into if you dig deep enough" stuff in it).

So yeah some things are lawful for us, but at the same time how do we avoid using our "Liberty in Christ" as a cover for doing something God forbids?
 
More in context, 1 Cor 10:14-33

14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
The Believer's Freedom
23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c]

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d]— 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
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In the old Jewish times, you would have been kicked out of the synagogue as a sinner if you ate meat that was sacrificed to an idol. And yet Paul clearly tells us that Jesus corrected the thinking by addressing our hearts, and the hearts of our brothers.

If you can play the game without letting your heart sink to idolatry, I'd guess you're safe.
 
One more question:

Psalm 11:5 "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Wouldn't that rule out the shooter games we like such as Halo and Call of Duty?
 
Depends. are you in it for the frags, gibs, and gore? Or are you just playing to solve problems, compete against other players?

I think it comes down to your heart, again.
 
Durruck said:
Depends. are you in it for the frags, gibs, and gore? Or are you just playing to solve problems, compete against other players?

I think it comes down to your heart, again.
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Dunno. I did play a few games simply for the gore in the past(Doom, GTA, and Postal come to mind). Thankfully they quickly became boring.

However I dunno about games like Halo or COD. It is satisfying when you get a machine gun going and are mowing down hordes of enemies, successfully take out a group with one grenade, or when you get a headshot with a sniper rifle, I'll be honest about that.
 
If you're honing your abilities (able to snipe someone on the run? hit someone with the throwing knife/symtek grenade?), your reaction time, or even strategies (intentionally going somewhere just because you know you'll be seen...trying to get someone to chase you), then it's probably okay.

If it's the act of violence itself that entices you, you might need to quit.

Personally, I just play to beat my co-workers... it doesn't matter if we're playing CoD, checkers, poker, or doing crosswords... I just want to compete with them.
 
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