The Last Pope and a New Beginning

[Kidan]

timor--Christ gave a list of works because He had not died yet. Until His sacrifice, to acheive Heaven, you had to obey the law, etc..etc.. (i.e. Works) In the post resurrection world we live in today, Salvation is by grace and acceptance of Jesus as saviour and Lord.

 

[timor]

So, when did it change? Presumably after his death, but did Jesus actually every say that during his 40 last days on earth? I'm being serious, not sarcastic - if he did say that, I'll certainly stand corrected. However, if he did not, you *may* be accused of interpreting the Bible your own way...

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Oct. 15 2003,8:09)]timor--Christ gave a list of works because He had not died  yet.  Until His sacrifice, to acheive Heaven, you had to obey the law, etc..etc.. (i.e. Works)  In the post resurrection world we live in today, Salvation is by grace and acceptance of Jesus as saviour and Lord.

So, you are saying that Christ spent three years indoctrinating his Apostles and Disciples in a system for Moral and Religious Living, which, five minutes after the Crucifixion would be a moot point. That Christ was just filling time. That Jesus was just brathering about nothing with the Sermon of the Mount.

Why do you believe all that. Not from anything Christ said. You are reciting Doctrine from the Church of Paul.

Step back from it and think for a second whether or not Satan would have loved to establish a Church were no one believed in Righteousness anymore.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 15 2003,2:12)]So, when did it change? Presumably after his death, but did Jesus actually every say that during his 40 last days on earth? I'm being serious, not sarcastic - if he did say that, I'll certainly stand corrected. However, if he did not, you *may* be accused of interpreting the Bible your own way...

Hi Timor,

No, all there assertions are out of Paul. What Paul claimed for himself and what they all believe in principle is that Christ spoke through Paul. No Saint has ever claimed the same thing -- that they were in effect speaking with the voice of Christ. I wonder that the Catholic Church allows Paul this one and only honor. You would think that Paul being so substantially different from every other Saint would have raised a red flag by now.

 

[CCGR]

Paul is not a saint and never claimed to be. He follwed Christ to his death, starting many churches in Christ's name and not his own.

 

[timor]

CCGR, this is kind of a moot point, but aren't all Christians, by Protestant standards, saints?

 

[CCGR]

children of God yes but saints is a formal recognition by the catholic church is my understanding.

perhaps you were thinking us as apostles?

 

[timor]

Perhaps. I was always under the impression that all Christians were technically saints. *shrug* Oh well, trivial

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 16 2003,7:33)]Paul is not a saint and never claimed to be.  He follwed Christ to his death, starting many churches in Christ's name and not his own.

"In his name".

Those were exactly the words Christ used when talking about The False Ones -- that they would use His Name, but He never knew them.

Now, why wouldn't the Antichrist use the name of Christ for propaganda purposes? By taking the Name of Christ, Paul had been able to coopt the Church. He was able to delete the Doctrines of Christ, and superimpose in their place Paulian Doctrines. And he was able to do it because everyone was apparently as gallible as you. "Well, since he is doing it all in the Name of Christ, it must be True. Or Christ would strike him dead!" It is a lazy assumption.

Christ said an Enemy would sow Tares in the Wheat. It would be asked "should we erradicate the weeds, Lord?" ... but Christ told us that the tares would be allowed to remain in The Field until the End of Time -- that to uproot the weeds would hurt the wheat which was not yet ripe. Well, these are the End Times. The Wheat is Ripe and ready to be threshed. The Tares have come to the end of their line. It is time that they be uprooted and taken to the thresher floor where it will be shown they have no grain, no fruits, and they will be thrown into the fire. Only the Grain will be saved.

But you probably assume that the Catholics are the Tares. Strange assumption. The Protestants teach that Righteousness is superfluous, while the Catholics, even while not overtly rejecting Paul, at least reject his doctrines, and still insist upon Righteousness, and Penance. We live by "Faith without works is Dead". The Catholics had a choice to make as to which disciples would dictate our Doctrines, and we went with the Christian Disciples. The most that can be said for Paul is that Christ warned us.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]We live by "Faith without works is Dead". The Catholics had a choice to make as to which disciples would dictate our Doctrines, and we went with the Christian Disciples.

Very interesting Leo. So, you (your religion) went with the disciples, but choose to live by the words of one who wasn't?

James made it clear that deeds are faith put into action. We are to bear fruit that is sown in the foundations of our faith. When we allow people to pick from our fruit (to partake in our kindness, love, courtesy, passion) then our Faith has produced the deeds. The seeds of our faith are seeds of God, planted by the Holy Spirit. It is not for our own sake that we do good and love our neighbour, rather, it is God who does it through us. So, nor shall I boast of my deeds, for they are not my own.

It is not the greatness of my faith that moves mountains, rather, it is my faith in the greatness of God. This is one of my most favorite quotes. I have faith in God to provide me with my needs. And God has provided me with enough income to donate money to my sponsored children and charities in my community. If I did not have faith that God would provide, most certainly I would horde my money. Therefore, it is my faith in God that has allowed God to produce good fruit that will benefit others in me. It is not the deeds that save me, they are not my own, rather, my faith in God that allows me to be used by God to do Gods will, and by that faith, I am cleansed and saved.

--
btw...after much prayer, contemplation and discussion with fellow christians at other boards, I felt compelled to come around on a part time basis.

 

[Avesther]

I figured I should clear this up with an example:


God promised that he would provide all our needs.  God promised that we would be better clothed then the fields are clothed with flowers.  We would be better feed then the birds that find all their food layed out for them amongst the grass and ground.

So, I am walking down the street and come across a neighbour who is without a cloack.  And I say to him, "Brother, take my cloak and be warm."  Gods promise has been fullfilled for this person.  But, can I claim that I have fullfilled what God promised he would do?  God did not promise that CndBacon would clothe you.  He promised he would.  I can not claim this deed as mine nor as part and parcel of my salvation.  All I can claim is that God used me to fullfill his promise.  And God could fullfill this promise, because I have faith in God to provide me with another cloak.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]"In his name".

Those were exactly the words Christ used when talking about The False Ones -- that they would use His Name, but He never knew them.

To show you how wrong you are I will now quote Yeshua. Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs will accompany those who believe in my name they will drive out demons they will speak in new tongues they will pick up snakes with their hands and drink deadly poison and it will not hurt them at all they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well" If one does not come in the name of Yeshua/Jesus I will not trust them. Please notice it says in his name will these things be done.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 18 2003,7:38)]

Quote[/b] ]"In his name".

Those were exactly the words Christ used when talking about The False Ones -- that they would use His Name, but He never knew them.

To show you how wrong you are I will now quote Yeshua. Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs will accompany those who believe in my name they will drive out demons they will speak in new tongues they will pick up snakes with their hands and drink deadly poison and it will not hurt them at all they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well" If one does not come in the name of Yeshua/Jesus I will not trust them. Please notice it says in his name will these things be done.

You did not show that I was wrong.

I was right when I said that Christ will say that there will be people who will say they did all sorts of stuff "in His name", and He will say "I knew thee not". You don't deny it, do you.

The Entire Catholic Church works -- does all its Good Works (which Prots despise) In the Name of Christ. The Prots, while following in Satan's Pride attempt to seduce the World away from The True Church by stealing The Name of Christ for its own Evil Purposes -- to turn the world from Righteousness and away from the Law of the Torah. To these abusers of The Name, Christ The Judge will say "I knew thee not" -- then off you will go.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CndBacon @ Oct. 18 2003,4:28)]

Quote[/b] ]We live by "Faith without works is Dead".  The Catholics had a choice to make as to which disciples would dictate our Doctrines, and we went with the Christian Disciples.

Very interesting Leo.  So, you (your religion) went with the disciples, but choose to live by the words of one who wasn't?

James made it clear that deeds are faith put into action.  We are to bear fruit that is sown in the foundations of our faith.  When we allow people to pick from our fruit (to partake in our kindness, love, courtesy, passion) then our Faith has produced the deeds.  The seeds of our faith are seeds of God, planted by the Holy Spirit.  It is not for our own sake that we do good and love our neighbour, rather, it is God who does it through us.  So, nor shall I boast of my deeds, for they are not my own.

It is not the greatness of my faith that moves mountains, rather, it is my faith in the greatness of God.  This is one of my most favorite quotes.  I have faith in God to provide me with my needs.  And God has provided me with enough income to donate money to my sponsored children and charities in my community.  If I did not have faith that God would provide, most certainly I would horde my money.  Therefore, it is my faith in God that has allowed God to produce good fruit that will benefit others in me.  It is not the deeds that save me, they are not my own, rather, my faith in God that allows me to be used by God to do Gods will, and by that faith, I am cleansed and saved.

--
btw...after much prayer, contemplation and discussion with fellow christians at other boards, I felt compelled to come around on a part time basis.

I can't object to much of what you say; however, although I can understand the Zen dimensions of the concept of "God working through us, and using us as His instruments, blah, blah, blah" , yet I think that is dangerous thinking in anyone except the Highest Saint who has given up all Ego and all personal desire and is truly an Instrument of God -- having no personal agenda in the least. For 99.999% of even The Best Christians, this is not even close to being the case. In this vast majority of instances the best we can hope for is that people act in what they hope is The Will of God -- how they honestly think God would have them behave. This is Free Will, and it accepts Responsibility. If you have New Believers running around with this notion that everything they do is the Will of God -- how can you expect them to accept Responsibility. They think it isn't them screwing up, but God. No! They are the ones screwing up. Good rule to remember -- Give God the Credit, but take the blame on oneself.

But, to throw your argument a bone, I can see in certain circumstances God may use us as 'instruments' -- finding yourself in a position to be someone elses 'Angel' -- "Hey Lady, you left your lights on!" But most of our daily activities are entirely on us -- God may get the credit for the good, but we must take the blaime for the bad. Catholics call that Humility.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CndBacon @ Oct. 18 2003,5:00)]I figured I should clear this up with an example:


God promised that he would provide all our needs.  God promised that we would be better clothed then the fields are clothed with flowers.  We would be better feed then the birds that find all their food layed out for them amongst the grass and ground.

So, I am walking down the street and come across a neighbour who is without a cloack.  And I say to him, "Brother, take my cloak and be warm."  Gods promise has been fullfilled for this person.  But, can I claim that I have fullfilled what God promised he would do?  God did not promise that CndBacon would clothe you.  He promised he would.  I can not claim this deed as mine nor as part and parcel of my salvation.  All I can claim is that God used me to fullfill his promise.  And God could fullfill this promise, because I have faith in God to provide me with another cloak.

You say that God promised to provide for all your needs. However, He also asked us to partake in His suffering -- to pick up our Crosses and follow him.

Christ could have 100,000 Angels serve Him hand and foot, but to start off His Ministry he fasted for 40 days. While there is still Sin in the World, it has to be atoned for. Yes, we may take from Christ's Account to keep us comfortable and well fed, ... but should we.

Saint Joseph of Copertino -- the Levitating Saint of just a few Centuries ago -- would do 7 forty day fasts a year. That is 240 days out of 365. The rest of the time he was eating something rotten that the other Brothers would gag on just smelling it.

Then there are the Stigmatics -- those who would manifest the Wounds of Christ. Many people don't know this, but the Stigmatics could not eat, ... could not eat for years. Christ did not eat from the Last Super until after the resurrection. Not eating was part of the Suffering of the Cross, and the Stigmatics partake in that torture along with all the others. Now, they too, could have drawn on God's promise to keep them coosy. In fact, a few of the Stigmatics were given the Choice. They were asked by Christ whether they wanted to share His Glory, or His Suffering. Hmmmmm? Most of the Stigmatics have been Women. Most of the Great Miracle Working Saints have been Men. So, it wasn't a trick question. The guys choose Glory, and the gals choose Suffering. But, realize, that the pain and penances of the Stigmatics is what pays for the Big Miracles. It is a Fact of the Divine Economy that No Providence can come from God without Penance and Sacrifice. Life in the World has just one purpose -- to atone for the Sin of Adam and Eve. Not to be comfortable, which just puts the necessary burden upon other shoulders. If everyone carries, the load is lighter. But the Prots insist that Catholics do all the heavy lifting.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]I can understand the Zen dimensions of the concept of "God working through us, and using us as His instruments, blah, blah, blah"

The Jews understand it all too well as well. It has nothing to do with Zen.

Quote[/b] ]In this vast majority of instances the best we can hope for is that people act in what they hope is The Will of God -- how they honestly think God would have them behave. This is Free Will, and it accepts Responsibility. If you have New Believers running around with this notion that everything they do is the Will of God -- how can you expect them to accept Responsibility.

God is very wise and thoughtful and you do not give him enough credit. He has a way of slaping you on the hand or kicking you in the butt when you stray. The story of Jonah comes to mind. And only a foolish Christian goes around not accepting responsibility for his sin. And I never said that a Christian should not accept their sin or the consequences thereof. And is that not one of the steadfast themes of the entire bible (even if you take out Pauls writings, the theme holds true) that we are sinners and are unable to do any good without allowing God to work his good through us? We could not even save ourselves because of how evil we are, God had to do that for us.