The Lich King must fall to Redeemed

S

skvsr

New Member
Ok - I am probably stirring up a ball of wax here, but our guild has to down the LK. I am not a veteran and do not want that status, but I am seriously suggesting some radical steps be taken to see that it is done.

1) Our veteran raiders MUST commit to treating this like a raiding guild until the task is completed. This includes a commitment to specific raid schedules with mandatory attendance.
2) Coming prepared is more than flasks, food and repairs. There is homework to be done to "know the enemy." "Intelligence" (knowing the enemy's strength, tactics, strategies, movements, etc.) is mandatory to win. You should be able to describe this coming fresh out of a deep sleep.
3) If you are not a member of this special raid team, do not give yourself a wedgy because you cannot go. Suck it up and realize there is a reason. Emotions should be supportive rather than detrimental. If you cannot add, do not detract.
4) We cannot allow excuses. Two or three attempts in an outing are lightweight. Speaking with one "Kingslayer" I saw that they had to make around as many as 25 unsuccessful attempts to succeed. Lets shorten the time to get in the attempts.

Post what you want in reply. Say I have no room to speak because I am not one of these raiders. Criticize the details and fault them. But in this I know what I am posting even from behind this medication-dulled mind of mine. This is not a raiding guild or any good semblance of one. This is - face it - a social guild whose members do not let the game control them. And I am proud to be one of Redeemed. Yet, if we really want the Lich King to fall to the Redeemed, some very different approaches must be taken. Some of us who cannot hack it, need to evaluate why and then take steps to correct our deficiency. And those of us with the kind of problems I face (mine from dealing with horrendous, chronic pain problem) need to be supportive of getting this done in anyway possible.

To help with this, I am making a 1,000 gold contribution to the guild bank to be specifically for the repair bills of the Lich King team. Let's get this done! If I cannot help in one way, I will do what I can. And, yes, I am heavily medicated today, so I really don't care what you have to say! LOL!
 
lol great post skvsr! haha!

Man, that sounds like a lot of fun, though!
 
If you like, I can help with this... Just let me know when... Broke 6k Gearscore last night on Poly.
 
This is not a raiding guild or any good semblance of one. This is - face it - a social guild whose members do not let the game control them.
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Hmm...so because people are better and can follow directions and not die in fires, that makes the game control them? The most we've raided is 3 nights a week - now two. My prior guild - 2 nights. Competency is the problem - not the "we're not a raid guild" mentality.

The bar is set so low and, to be frank, many of those in charge a.) don't understand basic game mechanics (see other posts regarding a CL stating someone's enchants were incorrect when they weren't) b.) kick out their talented members and c.) refuse to strike a balance that accomodates the casual, but not good players along with the casual, but good players.

You will never see Redeemed being anything other than a social organization...posts like this are pretty moot ;)

So given that, one of the more useful things you could do to realize such a goal would be to play close attention to who you put into leadership. This sort of thing has been discussed in the past ad nauseum and - clearly - not implemented.You have the same people instituting the same policies and kicking people out because they don't like them and ...surprise...you get nowhere.

I mean c'mon. How long has ICC been out and no LK kill even on 10???? I'd probably consider dropping this forum area all together and let people raid wherever they want if all you want is a social community. Less drama, less irritation - better all around. A lot of people have put a lot of effort in behind the scenes to try to make it a reasonably competent guild even with the "casual" label but other officers or long standing members have refused to enable that to happen.

As a reminder, the LK fight is pretty much:

0.) Can you run to the OT when you get the plague?
1.) Can you line up with everyone else in a straight line when valks come?
2.) Can you move when you get a big skull over your head?
2a.) Can you stay out of big black puddles?
3.) Can you keep the harvest soul person alive?

Not hard stuff.

Incoming post deletion and forum ban in 3...2...1...
 
Well Erastin, I definitely agree with you on some points. LK fight is pretty straight forward, as are most if not all of the fights in ICC. There are typically less than 5 things to worry about in order to win; usually 2-3 that actually pertain to any one person at a time.

Competency on a fight like LK is the issue. If you can get to LK, you can...in theory...down him. It's just going through the motions at the right time.

Where I disagree with you is Redeemed kicking out talented members and balancing casual not-good players with casual good players.

Redeemed definitely has some turnover. In my time as a regular member in Pre-BC as well as Raider--->Raid Leader--->Head Raid Leader/Officer, I've only ever personally seen 2 people asked to leave Redeemed. I know there have been heavy disagreements between members and officers that caused that member or members to leave, but they left of their own accord. I've been in on some of said conversations and thats how it's always ended...from "well I just don't agree so I'm gonna find something else" to full on Rage-quit. So if that's what you meant, cool. It just sounded like you were saying officers were kicking people out of the guild and I find that particular statement to be untrue.

Balance. I will not delve into the countless hours I spent on this, suffice to say I personally hacked out time to look at whatever solution I could come up with to keep every raider in Redeemed happy. The best I could come up with was to include as many people in ICC as possible that would net boss kills in both 10 and 25 man on at least 1 night AS WELL as have those other 1-3 nights (depending) where we could try to progress on at least 10 man. I spent almost every raid night for at least 7-8 months (minus mandatory 1-2 week breaks for school, family, etc) working with each progression team and learning who my raiders were and what they were capable of. There are certain minimum standards for each boss fight. I tried to formulate groups each night that would meet and exceed those standards. The difficult problem that I faced when we finally got to LK, is that we were starting to run short on good, consistent raiders. We could plan a LK attempt at least a week ahead, and we would still be 1 good healer short, or 1 tank, or 2 dps...whatever u want to say. I never led a LK attempt where I was 100% positive I had the group potential to down him.

Do I think that group exists within Redeemed? Yes, definitely. I'm positive that there are multiple groups within Redeemed that can do it. Is it Redeemed officer's fault LK isn't down? Maybe partially. One could argue either side. Maybe if officers and raid leaders were more stringent on their requirements and group make-ups, this wouldn't be an issue. Redeemed Raiding usually leans more towards inclusive as opposed to exclusive. And as previously stated, most times...even if you wanted to tell someone they dont have what it takes to make LK, you don't have a choice.

If an officer or raid leader stepped up with the backing of the rest of Redeemed's leadership and said, forget our policies, we're doing what it takes to down LK on <insert date here>, it would happen.
 
Erastin,

By the very fact that you expect a forum ban at the end of your post demonstrates that even if you had valid things to say, your heart attitude is wrong.

From previous posts you have made it is clear that you hold some bitterness in your heart. Why don't you do the mature godly thing - and PM those whom you have issues with and deal with it, instead of making unsubstantiated accusations that only cause division.

I'm sorry that something is eating you up but this is not the way to deal with it.
 
Second to that your post also reminds me of the Pharisees when Jesus eats with sinners. While Jesus is worrying about the condition of sinners, others just stand on the sidelines and criticize.

You have no idea what our situation is - I have been here for at least a year and you have had no part of our guild runs and raids. So to criticize from afar shows only a lack of knowledge.

We have had successes in our raiding and believe me when I say having the LK title is worthless if it's all about business. The way we choose to conduct our raids, and the results we get - if they satisfy us - what is that to you?

Our raid leaders work hard - we have very good raiders and we have people who can match other raiding guilds any day. So please spare us the lecture about what we ought to do and say - unless your willing to be part of the solution.
 
nattyg said:
Hmm...so because people are better and can follow directions and not die in fires, that makes the game control them? The most we've raided is 3 nights a week - now two. My prior guild - 2 nights. Competency is the problem - not the "we're not a raid guild" mentality.

The bar is set so low and, to be frank, many of those in charge a.) don't understand basic game mechanics (see other posts regarding a CL stating someone's enchants were incorrect when they weren't) b.) kick out their talented members and c.) refuse to strike a balance that accomodates the casual, but not good players along with the casual, but good players.

You will never see Redeemed being anything other than a social organization...posts like this are pretty moot ;)

So given that, one of the more useful things you could do to realize such a goal would be to play close attention to who you put into leadership. This sort of thing has been discussed in the past ad nauseum and - clearly - not implemented.You have the same people instituting the same policies and kicking people out because they don't like them and ...surprise...you get nowhere.

I mean c'mon. How long has ICC been out and no LK kill even on 10???? I'd probably consider dropping this forum area all together and let people raid wherever they want if all you want is a social community. Less drama, less irritation - better all around. A lot of people have put a lot of effort in behind the scenes to try to make it a reasonably competent guild even with the "casual" label but other officers or long standing members have refused to enable that to happen.

As a reminder, the LK fight is pretty much:

0.) Can you run to the OT when you get the plague?
1.) Can you line up with everyone else in a straight line when valks come?
2.) Can you move when you get a big skull over your head?
2a.) Can you stay out of big black puddles?
3.) Can you keep the harvest soul person alive?

Not hard stuff.

Incoming post deletion and forum ban in 3...2...1...
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Nevi, you are not in Redeemed anymore. You have no idea what it's like. You're post is "quite frankly" showing your butt...as usual.

Less elitist attitude and more positive please. I rarely if ever see any encouragement out of you. It's always looking down on people. And for the things you said about Redeemed is just flat out insulting and untrue. Stop spewing your hate (yes that is what i see it as) towards our members, especially leadership, here on the forums. And Pnuema was absolutely spot on with things he said.

Now, as far as the LK being dead discussion...
We've allowed the opportunity for every single member to perform to a point to be called veterans. To some it's important, to others it's not so much...and these veterans have been putting a lot of time and effort into downing the lk as of late. It hasnt been on our raiding priority list because a LOT of members still needed ICC and most of our veterans help to take those people through them. Before the healers that have joined recently, I was one of the better ones consistently on and willing to help. Plus, having 6 80's with 4-5 of them geared enough to help out, that's what I did so the max amount of people could get to go to ICC. That's what most of the leaders do. That was our goal...to fellowship and help others, not sacrifice others for the soul purpose of downing the LK.

Now that we are at a point of attempting him multiple times, our only issue is the fact that we have at least one or two new people attempting him every time we have a group together...and that right there messes us up. Learning the fight for most requires trying it a few times..which means dying..and if one goes down that's pretty much a wipe on a 10 man. That is the only reason I've see so far. People don't know the fight well yet.
 
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While not how I would put it, Nevi has some good points, I've been going about this is a different way. Helping the current leadership see how things can be done, for instance last week we went into ICC , not with the eleet of the guild, but the mind set on my part to get far. I helped the leaders see things in the different way. The biggest issue is not the ability to move when needed but the strat. Far to often leaders get stuck in a strat and that is the only way. Just because it was on Tank Spot doesn’t make it the set way to do things… The one thing I prided myself on it that I have is the ability to look over the skill set and change things to match that skill set. That is a skill that is not trained, it is a gift from God, No I and not gifted to game, I use that same ability at work every day, it just translate well into the game and all other games before.
Redeemed at one point was progressing with a lot of other guilds… we cleared Naxx within a good time frame, before that in BC we cleared a lot of dungeons, not because we have the best geared people, but because we had leaders that were willing to look out of the box. I love Nevi to death, but Nevi I think there is a better way to go about it.
I am personally looking forward to Cata, I believe the changes can lead to a great raiding experience within Redeemed.

Chris
 
Oh and I hate writing, would rather talk... No one take my post the wrong way... was not meant to insult anyone.
 
Mordos you did help us with the strat and we still failed because of the reason I said...new players every time lol. We don't always take the elite of the elite but if we can we want to. We have a TON of great players...group makeup is still tough sometimes though...we have a ton of good dps mainly :p and good bit of heals..and hardly any tanks that can actually go lol.

It's a fun fight and jsut like any other, you gotta learn it and get it down. Just a lot that can go wrong.

As far as leadership choosing a strat and sticking to it...all we can do is research. We don't raid with other guilds so have no idea of other strats other than what we read. So it's not so much as being stuck on a strat. Before you came back Mordos and we tried LK a few times we tried a few different strats. For as long as I've raided with Redeemed and talking to the leaders during raids of how to improve or change things I can definitely say leadership has never been stuck on a strat. They're constantly trying to improve and adjust from what they research from the elite raid teams that tell you how to do things. You were able to help us because you had seen it diffierently and has actually experienced it. I occasionally get to share that kind of information when i get a good PUG...but those are few and far between :D
 
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Oh and I hate writing, would rather talk...
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I am just the opposite of Dos on that. I do a much better job communicating by writing...well at least I think I do. Anyhow, I wanna add my take on this.

Sometimes stuff needs to be aired out. And sometimes it reassures the rank and file of a group to see that stuff aired and handled appropriately. Too bad that the issue brought out by NattyG is not one that needs this kind of airing. If one of us has a problem with how something is being conducted, that one should approach the problem in a private manner seeking resolution with those involved. There is a point, then, that we should agree that we disagree, but should still remain brothers and sisters - conducting ourselves accordingly. Yet, apparently, this is something that NattyG felt as though he must express and he did so. I think the issues he brought out were handled quite well by the responses that have been posted.

Yet, let us be cautious in this kind of matter to not allow it to evolve into a personal matter if we are airing it in public. Christ warned us about becoming an offense to those not mature enough to handle a situation (the children and the millstone story).

The main focus of this thread is to be an encouragement to those involved in this endeavor to get the job done. I do not think my ability to focus and remember will allow me to be on the front line facing the Lich King, so I am doing what I can to support it. And I will continue to do so in the best manner possible. If discussion of how to accomplish this evolves, let us do it in a manner that Mordos has shown - allowing the love of Christ to oversee what is said. I do not think that NattyG meant this to purposefully sow discord, yet it certainly was perceived in that manner. A criticism was offered and it may have been rougher than what some would like to see, yet the question it brought out was answered quite well. We can see the pastoral care offered by Pneuma - appropriately and lovingly - as well as the care and caution offered in the responses. If the matter raised by NattyG must be continued to be discussed in this thread, let us do it responsibly and in the love of Christ and not allowing it to become one of discord.
 
I'd enjoy downing the LK, and I go whenever I can to help out. But for me, its about you'all. Our fellowship of Christians who love one another, support one another, pray for one another, believe the best for one another. I know we are far from perfect, all of us, we all fall down and fail sometimes but we pick each other back up and continue to do our best.

Whenever situations arise that bother me, I try to turn to scriptures for answers. Nevi, your post seems a bit harsh, and I'm hoping you didn't mean to come across as such. I must warn you, that yes I will moderate any other posts of this nature, and pray you make peace with whoever, or whatever is bothering you. Any non-member of Redeemed is a guest on these forums, please conduct yourself as such being polite to our members and other guests. Feel free to contact me anytime Nevi privately, or anyone who has questions or wants to talk, feel free to get with me. If anyone feels there are unsettled conflicts, please follow the path for conflict resolution TOJ has laid out, you can find it here:
http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16322

Here are some scriptures I'm meditating on:

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.
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Proverbs 17:9 He who conceals a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.
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1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
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1 Thessalonians 5:14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
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1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
 
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The only thing I have to add here is this-

Read your post before hitting submit. Some of these posts are personal attacks only slightly veiled.

I do not have a dog in this fight but I do have DELETE and can suggest bans.
 
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