The Presidential Race

[Que Pasa]

I don't see a thread on this topic anywhere. I know this could quickly detirorate into a flameware, so please be civil, but discussion is encouraged.

We can see where I stand.
I like the idea of national healthcare, and the idea that I could possibly be paying less for college if Kerry gets elected. The "Schools open til' six" initiative for providing every child with after-school opportunities is also a great plan of action.

I'm not going to engage in any Bush bashing.

 

[Kidan]

As well, a federal national healthcare system is a violation of the Tenth Amendment ( a state could constitutionally run it, but the federal government cannot, unless the Constitution is amended).


As well, I see it as a violation of the Tenth Amendment anytime the federal government gets involed in any type of education reform/programs.  The Constitution does not provide for a Federal Dept. of Education.  So things such as demanding local schools stay open till six is not truly within his powers.

and as comingsoon pointed out, all these things involve raising taxes to pay for things.  We currently work until May to pay our "tax debt" (at least if you make over $26k a year).  Mr. Kerry wants that "tax debt" to last until Late July or August to handle all the tax increases he desires.

Now, let us look at some of the other things he wants.
The tax increase on the rich.  The entire complaint about the Bush Tax Cuts is isanity.  It is a TAX CUT.  Therefore, those who pay the most in taxes, should recieve the biggest cut.  As well the GAO has reported that those people in the bracket that Kerry wants to raise taxes on, have reported (and paid) more taxes since the cuts than before the cuts.  Since the tax rate is lower, they have less need to keep their money in various tax shelters, so they actually end up paying more taxes.

Now, let's see John Kerry on defense and Foreign affairs

He claims he wants to 'modernize' our military, yet everytime a defense appropriations bill came up to do so, he attempted to shoot it down.

He claims that we went into Iraq without the aid of any of our allies.  This denies the fact that we went in with a number of different countries, in fact most of NATO went in with us.  When Kerry says our allies, he's talking rather exclusively about France, Germany and Russia.  Yet, for all his whining about us going 'alone' in Iraq, he also complains that Bush does not go alone and act unilaterally in North Korea.  Of course, when asked what he would do in regards to North Korea he responded "I will not answer hypothetical questions"  and that more than likely he'd go running to the UN Security Council.


Let's go to the environment.
Kerry wants to enact stricter air regulations, yet there is no scientific proof that human air emissions (which count for less than 3% of all 'greenhouse gases') has any effect on the environment.


Now, shall we tear apart his lies that he's spat out since he started?  Shall we discuss the numerous times he's changed stances since he started?  Shall we discuss his claimed war crimes?  Shall we discuss his time as a domestic terrorist?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Clicky

Mmm.  A good read from Mr. Reagan.

 

[Thaddius]

Are we not already a somewhat-socialistic country?

Quote[/b] ]The Ten Steps of Karl Marx Implementation in America

By Bob1776 <Bob1776@modempool.com>

THE TEN STEPS OF KARL MARX (With my comments interspersed). Taken from the Communist Manifesto

1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

We already have this in America. Through property taxes we have been made serfs on our own land. Through tyrannical zoning laws, wetlands regulations, EPA regulations, etc., we no longer control our lands. Our once strong private property rights have been abolished through regulatory oppression, bureaucratic tyranny and unbiblical types of taxation.

2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

We already have this in America. The higher your income, the higher the tax bracket you are placed in for purposes of calculating your tax bill. This is completely evil and unBiblical. The Bible Teaches us the principle of the Flat Tax when it requires that everyone is to pay a Tithe (1/10) of their produce to the Lord. God did not say that the poor only pay 5% and the wealthy are to pay 25%. God said everyone rich or poor, pays the same percentage. Why do liberals pretend to want to tax the wealthy more? Because it advances their program for fomenting class envy and class warfare. Divide and conquer, that is the strategy of the evil communist liberals who are wrecking America with ever higher taxes and increasingly bigger government.

3) Abolition of all right of inheritance.

We already have this in America. The inheritance taxes are astronomically high and this is just plain evil. The Bible says in Proverbs 13:22 that "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just." Liberals want to destroy the family because strong families do not need socialism or government give away programs. Liberals want to destroy the ability of strong families to perpetuate the influence of their progeny by stealing half of their net worth through the imposition of confiscatory inheritance tax rates.

4) Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels.

We already have this in America. You have heard about "FORFEITURE LAWS." Many branches of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies and regulatory agencies are confiscating property, goods and money without a trial, without due process, etc. This is a perfect tool for the tyrant bureaucrat who wants to make your life hell. If you are not "Politically Correct" liberals will use these laws to harass you and confiscate your property.

5) Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

We already have this in America. It is called the Federal Reserve Bank. This is the single most evil, deadly and damaging of the 10 Planks of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. The counterfeit paper debt based monetary scheme that we now suffer is going to destroy our Republic, our liberty and our economy. The Federal Reserve System is an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve is not a branch of the Federal Government and it does not have any reserves of Gold or Silver coin backing their "Federal Reserve Notes." Federal Reserve Notes are counterfeit Money, fiat money. The Federal Reserve controls our economy through it's monopolistic control of interest rates. We have a 20 Trillion Dollar Debt pyramid in this nation and one day it is all going to come crashing down. When it does crash, the bankers who gave us nothing more than paper money will repossess and confiscate nearly every home, business, farm, vehicle and all property in America that has a mortgage or outstanding balance on it. On that day you should take you gun out and kill as many communist liberals as you can find.

6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to exercise complete control over the media via the FCC and monopolistic media mogul billionaires. At this time they control 90 to 95% of the media that the masses turn to for information. But the free press has proved more resilient than our enemies planned and the Internet is really upsetting their apple-cart. As for their efforts to centralize transportation, liberals are very anxious to force us all to use state run mass transit trains, subways and car pooling schemes. Thus we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the sixth plank of the communist manifesto.

7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on farmers. They have been very successful through the use farm subsidies and regulations at destroying the small independent family owned farm. Today instead of family farms our nations food supply is produced and controlled by huge corporations and this is called "agri-business." This destruction of the family owned farms was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on the manufacturing sector. By imposing millions of regulations on every minute aspect of business, they have either driven the small independent factories out of business or forced them to sell out to one of the large multi-national mega-corporations. Only the large corporations have the capability, the man-power to research and obey all of the millions of federal regulations. This destruction of the family owned factories was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. Again we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the seventh plank of the communist manifesto.

8) Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to pass federal legislation to implement the goals of this Plank of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. So called "industrial armies" in modern parlance are known as Unions. The collection by "force" of Union Dues, from the employees who are subject to Forced Unionism, has been devastating to the political process in America. Every Union without exception supports left wing candidates with both money and man-power. As to the concept of equal pay for all workers regardless of skill or productivity, this plank of the communist manifesto has been implemented both in Union shops and via the minimum wage. But the minimum wage law violates the rights of private parties to contract without interference and is another example of the numerous ways that liberals have worked to implement Marxism in our nation.

9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.

This is Social Engineering. This, for example, is telling people where to live and telling farmers and businessmen by dint of government regulations and central planning how to run their business! Yes we have plenty of Social Engineering in America. Yes our nation has been severely damaged by leftists who have been very successful at implementing to a greater or lesser degree all ten planks of the Communist Manifesto, but it is not yet absolute or irreversible.

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

Yes we have this in America. In my opinion this Plank of the Communist Manifesto ranks second place for the evil it has done to our nation. Our lousy, government run, Public School and Public University system costs three to four times more than it should and yet they do a poor job of educating the children. Now the Federal government is trying to take over public education in America. The Fed's are proposing through their Goals 2000 program, another program that is right out of the communist manifesto. It is called the "Schools to work program." But the worst aspect of government schools is that they are actively promoting and indoctrinating our children in the ideas of Marxism, big government, central planning, government run education, fiat currency or paper money, environmental extremism, forced unionism, evolution, feminism, homosexuality and socialism in general. May God Help Us to defeat our enemies peacefully now rather than by violence or war later.

Here is the total:

1. This goal has been fully implemented.
2. This goal has been fully implemented.
3. This goal is only partially implemented.
4. This goal has been fully implemented.
5. This goal has been fully implemented.
6. This goal is only partially implemented.
7. This goal is only partially implemented.
8. This goal is only partially implemented.
9. This goal is only partially implemented.
10. This goal has been fully implemented.

This means that America is already approximately 50 to 60% communist. Odd isn't it that the 60% figure is exactly what most conservative economists say we are paying in taxes when you add up every tax and combine that figure with the cost of Federal regulations.

Cory

 

[Kidan]

whats so sad an unfortunate, is that a number of liberals i know, would look at the list of things, and see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Thaddius]

I got it from Here

I found it very interesting. But then again, I find many things that I think are interesting.

fyi, am in no way validating the accuracy of stuff found on this site. I saw Bill Maher on the O'Rielly factor and he made a statement that got me intersted in if our countery was truely headed into socialism already. This was just one of the sites I found while doing my searches


Cory

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Sep. 15 2004,7:06)]Once again..all insinuations and simply regurtitating the Dems party line.  Bush is not Saint..i'll give you that..and i am not sure i am going to vote for him..but nothing the Dems/liberals/socialists(what's the difference?  none really) will ever get me to vote for kerry.  In fact i may vote bush in jsut to keep kerry out.  Unfortunatly reagan's son mentioned here is actually a Democratic mouthpiece..the dems are trying to find a way to ride his father's popularity.  This will be one of many falied tactics.

Reagan's son or no, his speach was excellent, and people heard it. And anyway, the rupubs did the same thing during their convention.

As for all the socialist shtuff, I feel that you're getting too caught up with the word 'socialism'..it's been turned into a bad word, when that was not the original intention at all. In theory, socialism is a pretty good idea actually, it's just that it can never work, since humans are imperfect. However, that does not mean that every single little aspect of our government that we label as being socialist is automatically a bad idea. Of course there are always radical leftists that say we should have the government run absolutely everything, which would be bad, but most liberals, for instance Kerry, are fairly moderate.

 

[Gandhi]

With the tax cuts I think they should go to people with low income. People who make more than 26k pay more but they can afford more.

I'm not really aware of his health care stance, I guess I have some reading to do.

Quote[/b] ]So things such as demanding local schools stay open till six is not truly within his powers.

I personally tink its great idea, u have to invest more into education, but I don't know where the money is going to come from.
I don't think in canada teachers get paid for the extra time they spend after school. And I used to be in school till 9-10 pm sometmes. And lots of times my teachers stayed to see if any off us needed help.

Quote[/b] ]I saw Bill Maher on the O'Rielly factor

Bill Maher is a great guy, funny as hell.
I don't like Bill O'Rieley.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Sep. 15 2004,11:35)]kerry..moderate?  maybe to the french where our democrats and liberals are considered conservatives..but not here in the U.S. of A.

Eh. I certainly don't consider Kerry to be far leftist..not even Nader is far leftist in mine opinion. Your opinion is different than mine because methinks you're probably less moderate then I. Buut the standard is based on the middle, not leaning towards either side.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]kerry..moderate? maybe to the french where our democrats and liberals are considered conservatives..but not here in the U.S. of A.

LOL How can you call someone a moderate who was voted the "most liberal" in the democratic party?

Thanks for the good laugh.

Cory

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

Can someone PM me if/when this thread gets nasty? With the election nearly upon us, perhaps it would be wise to re-title our Religious Discussion Forum to "Religious and Political Discussion Forum."

 

[Mr.Bill]

There's no objective say so on what is liberal and what is conservative, so there's not much point in argueing about it. But in my opinion, the democratic party is made up mostly of moderates, while the more leftists move to different parties. The same goes for the right. But again, whatever.

 

[Gandhi]

I thought I'd add some quotes about politics.

Quote[/b] ]Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Quote[/b] ]Democracy is a process by which the people are free to choose the man who will get the blame.
Laurence J. Peter (1919 - 1988)

Quote[/b] ]On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)

Quote[/b] ]Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear.
Alan Corenk

Quote[/b] ]Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965), Hansard, November 11, 1947

Quote[/b] ]Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn

Quote[/b] ]Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004)

 

[Genesis1315]

Has anyone looked at all of the points that each candidate is running on and compared how their own beliefs and values measure up?

Personally, it seems like a pretty tough call since the candidate that matched my beliefs most, only came in at 60%. The next runner up came in around 35%.

Gen