Time Zones...

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Lethalon

Redeemed Guild Leader
Hi All,

We're noticing most raids/events are occurring at a time beneficial to the Pacific time zone, and Shadra and I are in the Eastern time zone.

I was wondering how many other guildmates are in Eastern/Central time zones and would be interested in doing things at a more decent hour relative to Eastern!
 
i agree, due to the nature of Redeemed (we have people from all over the country)
i think we should set up activities at different times.

i live on the west coast and would like to see activities at a later time.
6pm is dinner time for me and my wife is very big on eating meals together so....
 
Feel your pain. I've moved servers because of timezones before and that is no fun.

i live on the west coast and would like to see activities at a later time.
6pm is dinner time for me and my wife is very big on eating meals together so....
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and that's the rub. after dinner for you is 7pm PST? which is 11pm EST which is crazy late for the east coasters. 6pm PST = 9pm EST which is cornering on late as well. Any earlier though and the west coasters don't have time to get home from work.

It's not an easy job, but the raid leaders have done a good job of consistently asking (polls on forum and gchat) of what time works best for everyone. it's impossible to have a raid schedule that fits everyone.
 
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I believe setting things up at different times was attempted before and failed due to lack of interest. With the growth the guild has seen recently, there may be more interest for this. As an east coast player, I wouldn't mind seeing some earlier activities either.

We have much to decide when it comes to raiding and other "official" guild activities, but as of now, the only official guild raids will most likely stay at 6 server time.

We also used to have a late group that raided ICC last expansion, and I'm not sure of the status of continuing that right now.
 
Interesting...

Here's some additional thoughts.

1) We (and I'm sure others, as Chunlin has hinted) joined Redeemed because of the core aspect of the guild (Christian) and not because of the time zone
2) I believe in self organizing, so 'official' doesn't really matter to me personally

Based on the above, what I hope this thread accomplishes is a group of guild mates that can schedule time together closer to EST and then define what can be done with that based on who is interested and how many!
 
We've tried different start times over the past 2 years. As stated above they've usually fizzled out due to lack of interest. There have been members who put together raids at different times of the day/week. If you want to start organizing pug guild runs during the week, I'd check with the Guild Leaders and McFierce before moving forward. Putting together pug guild runs has, in the past, caused some problems and friction. We would like to keep that to a minimum and do our best to help everyone enjoy the game to it's fullest.
 
The only problems it causes is players being unavailable for the guild raids because they are saved to these PUG raids. If we return to the veteran progression raiding policy, I would expect veterans to be available for the official guild run. If a player is not interested in being a veteran, or is a veteran but is sure they will be unable to make the guild raid that particular week, I have no problem with them pugging either inside or outside of the guild.
 
just checking:
the only instances are saved are raids(>10 man) and heroic-5-man's right?
and heroic-5-man's are only saved for that day right?
raids are saved for 1 wk right?

excuse my noobness
 
Well, you guys are talking about raids, I was being more general.

At this point, we are still gearing for heroics, and I can guarantee that Shadra and I will NOT be available for raids starting at 9 PM EST.

Based on the comments above, does this mean we'll never be veterans because we are EST and work/life prevents us from participating in raids that end 6 hours before I have to be at work?
 
During the beginning of an expansion is when it's going to be most difficult to accommodate everyone's schedules. At this point, when so few people are raiding, there will not be enough groups to run at different times during the day. What has happened is as expansions have gone on and more toons have gotten to 85 (more members and alts) more runs open up and provide more flexibility.

For the next few months it will be difficult for you to get into a guild raid if you are not able to run at 6ST. But once more people are 85 and have 85 alts and there are more people available to do runs there will be more chances.

But to answer your question: You will most likely not get the opportunity to raid with the guild unless you can be on at 6 server time. On that same note, you could apply for vet status, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea since Veterans are not allowed to PUG raids outside of Redeemed and that would lessen your chances to raid.
 
john3610 said:
During the beginning of an expansion is when it's going to be most difficult to accommodate everyone's schedules. At this point, when so few people are raiding, there will not be enough groups to run at different times during the day. What has happened is as expansions have gone on and more toons have gotten to 85 (more members and alts) more runs open up and provide more flexibility.
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^This

Our main raiding time has been, and will most likely continue to be 6ST. However, there is nothing to stop us from setting up other times for us to raid as we continue to have people hit 85 and gear up via heroics. So don't let the idea of not being able to raid at the main time get you down. There will most likely be other runs scheduled for another "more convenient" time as we progress further through this expansion.

On a related note, Guild Raiding is actually going to be mulled over during the next week or so. Times, loot rules, teams, veteran status, etc will be discussed and implemented as we deem fitting for our guild needs at this time. Nothing is set in stone yet. Any and all updates will be posted here on the forums or in your Guild Message of the Day. So keep your eyes and minds open :)
 
First, I'd like to point out that I never said raid! I was thinking more along the lines of heroics and other activities. Nor was I pushing to make the main raid time non-PST. Instead I was looking for additional folks would could not/would not be only on during PST prime time.

Secondly, based on the conversation so far it almost sounds like PST availability is the most important component for valued guild membership!

Thirdly, all of this seems very restrictive! Veterans can't lead PUG raids, members can't be veterans unless they can attend the raids on the western coast time frame, etc.

Fourthly, again based on the conversation so far, to experience end game content, we will either have to sacrifice RL concerns or change guilds.

All of this also makes the game itself worth less as a way to spend time.
 
(all of this is about raiding, because heroics can happen any time)

Leth, like you I am actually living in EST and raiding at 9 oclock works really well for me. Being unemployed kinda helps that... /facepalm. haha. It's hard to find middle ground for everyone. And that is and always has been the challenge. But every so often we put up a poll asking what the best time to schedule a raid is and it is almost always voted to be 6ST. The majority of people (East and West coast) have continuously voted to have our raid time be then.

I believe you and your wife are somewhat new to Redeemed and maybe I can give some insight into why we regulate raiding so much. In my time in leadership we have had almost no good experience with "unofficial guild raiding" or "guild PUG raids". ie - members leading raids. As a Christian guild we have some unique challenges which would not take place in a perfect world.. but we are all sinful and so things break down.. and there is nothing like raiding to bring out the selfishness in people. We have put rules and guidelines in place to make sure that we honor God and honor each other in our raid environment. We select officers and raid leaders who we can trust to lead raids and to represent the ideals of Redeemed well. In the 5-6 instances I can think of since I was originally elected guild leader in 2008 we have seen every "Guild PUG raid" run into drama and break up unity in the guild. What will almost always happen is that the person leading the raid will make an unfair loot rule, or will leave someone out who should be there, or won't pick spots fairly, or will invite people they like over those they don't, or will get frustrated and hurt someone's feelings. And what will oftentimes happen in that situation is the member who is hurt will come to me (or another guild leader/officer) and complain that Redeemed raiding is unfair, un-Christian, and then will gquit. All the while.. it wasn't even a Redeemed sanctioned raid, but leadership still takes the heat for it. Raiding is a divisive issue.

All that to say... the steps the leadership have decided to take are that we do not allow guild members to advertise for PUG raids in guild chat. A PUG raid is considered any raid with Redeemed members not being led by an officer/raid leader. You are more than welcome to organize a PUG raid at any time you want, but you are not allowed to advertise for it in guild chat. Although if you invite guild members the likelihood is that you will leave the Redeemed raid shorthanded when it comes time for the guild to raid.

As for veteran status. You may also not realize what the goal of veteran status is. We ask Veterans to make the sacrifice to not PUG with other people in order to get priority invites to Redeemed raids. They are people we can count on week in and week out to be there when we need them and people we can count on to step out if the group needs them to. Veteran status is all about doing what is best for the team. If you are not able to make the raids you probably don't want to be a veteran because it will keep you from doing PUG raids.

As much as I hate to say it, if you want to raid and that is what is most important to you in WoW and you cannot make our raid time my suggestion would be to find another guild. I certainly don't want that. But if the way that you have fun in the game is to raid and you can't do 6ST this may not be the raid environment for you. I wish we could fit everyone with every schedule in, but it just can't happen sadly. As leadership we have to make the choice to try and do what is best for the most people... and I'm sad to say that people who cannot ever raid at 6ST are in the minority.

If we were to switch out raid time to 4ST we may be able to get you in, but we would lose 8 or more people who will still be at work/school. On the same note if we change the raid time to 8ST we may get more people on the west coast, but we would lose 5-6 people from the east coast. 6ST is about the best middle ground we've been able to find.
 
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I'd just like to re-iterate I wasn't positioning for changing raid times. I was really looking for Redeemed that were in the same boat as Shadra and I and would like to to do things together as guild-mates but cannot do so at late hours.

I do understand what you are saying regarding selfishness and other attributes of our fallen nature in regards to raids.

Shadra and I haven't raided a lot (once with Redeemed and twice in Pugs), so have no idea what it's like, but the more frustrating aspect is that we've been playing on and off since initial release of WoW and the way the guild is structured seems to put a block for us on experiencing what seems to be effectively the real focus of the game and majority of the guild, at least in the sense of what Redeemed people strive to do together.

Regarding organizing non-Redeemed raids, that would not be enjoyable at all!

The observation about "not the raid environment for you", is something I've already commented on. We chose the nature of the guild, not the time zone or raiding schedule, so this thread was about finding a way to improve the chances of experiencing more content with fellow believers and guild mates.

Unfortunately, It doesn't feel like this thread is currently following the path that I was hoping for, which was more of a problem solving mode.

Please allow me to restate:
1) For the most part, Shadra and I cannot do activities starting at 9EST
2) It is possible that there are other Redeemed who are also in EST who cannot participate that late
3) We'd like to do in game activities and events with fellow Redeemed who are in the same boat
4) If there are sufficient people who fit number 2, and those people are right for it, there may be opportunities for raids in addition to heroics and other activities

When I started this thread, it never occurred to me that scenario would be frowned upon!
 
I think there is some misunderstanding between people in this thread, and I really hope it doesn't cause problems. If I can attempt an extremely basic summary:

Lethalon is looking for players who might want to do any sort of activity earlier than 6pm ST, 9pm EST.

Others took this to mean "lead separate guild raids earlier in the day", which is not what Lethalon was getting at.

If I have summarized accurately, my answer would be this:
Lethalon, I encourage you organizing almost any kind of guild activity you can think of. I would like to see more people participating in fun group things and even getting some achievements for Redeemed! I support you 100% in this endeavor. You are welcome to use the forums, guild chat, etc, to organize any event you'd like to plan. However, the only thing we would ask you NOT to do at this time would be to save raiders to the current raid (which, at this time, is any Cata raid), and make them unavailable to participate in the guild's raid. Although, I personally think that members wanting to be eligible for the guild raid would just say "no thanks, I'm waiting for the guild raid at 9pm tonight." But that's something I need to discuss with the rest of the leadership before making further comments on.

Would you be interested in talking about this more in-game? I feel that instant conversation may be more conducive to understanding each other better.
 
Thanks Flame, that's a lot closer to what I'm saying!

I wouldn't want to interfere with 'official' raiding at all.

We can certainly talk about it in game!
 
Lethalon said:
Thanks Flame, that's a lot closer to what I'm saying!

I wouldn't want to interfere with 'official' raiding at all.

We can certainly talk about it in game!
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Sounds great! A while back, I had come up with some outside-the-box ideas, and it would be cool to get some of those going, or team up for some rated BGs or heroics or something.
 
Secondly, based on the conversation so far it almost sounds like PST availability is the most important component for valued guild membership!

Thirdly, all of this seems very restrictive! Veterans can't lead PUG raids, members can't be veterans unless they can attend the raids on the western coast time frame, etc.

Fourthly, again based on the conversation so far, to experience end game content, we will either have to sacrifice RL concerns or change guilds.

All of this also makes the game itself worth less as a way to spend time.
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I am Eastern time and have never had an issue with not feeling valued as a member of Redeemed, or the raid times. Over many years of asking and trying differant times, 6 server seemed to be the best compromise. Its not about east coast or west coast, on this issue the key word is compromise with the raid time set up to try to make it as doable as possible for everyone.

The officers/guild leaders are approachable with any issue, please feel free to contact any of them in game or invite them in vent. Redeemed has a great raid leadership team headed up by McFierce, and they go out of their way to try to make everyone feel comfortable through its not always easy and much of the time they are under-appreciated. Remember we are not primarily a raiding guild, though we raid, we are a Christian fellowship first, who happens to raid.

If anyone wishes to raid though, please review the raiding policys here: http://www.cgalliance.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33282 If after reviewing the policys each individual will need to determine if Redeemed is what you are looking for personally. All are welcome to participate :D

All non raiding activities can be 'initiated' by ANYONE, have fun, have at it, put it on the calendar, promote it!! We love these kind of extra activities and welcome them and if you are a good organizer and have more in mind, let a guild leader know as there is always room for that! But, seeing that we are all simply volunteer members, remember no one 'works' for Redeemed, we just have fun together.

Happy raiding/leveling etc. all, cya online!
 
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"We are not primarily a raiding guild"

I think that's a great position!

However, consider that there's a forum dedicated to raiding, guild tabs dedicated to raiding, and the guild hierarchy is also centered around raiding (in fact all details about such are in the raiding portion of the forums), I think in practice we're more raid centric than not, even if that isn't/wasn't the intent.

Regarding compromise, I understand that, and again - I think for the third or fourth time - I am not seeking to change the raid times!
 
I understand the frustrations completely of trying to be a part of something and not necessarily being able to connect.

I have been in this guild and felt like an insider and an outsider at different times. For example I used to be an officer and now that I am not I miss the fellowship that I had with some of the other officers. Much <3 to my officer crew.

The feeling of disconnectedness which I think we all suffer from at times is truly frustrating. In an ever moving non static environment such as an MMO community this will always plague the members. (Just try being absent for a month and see if everything is still the same!).

Change to an always moving system is difficult and secondly it is hard to anticipate what will work best. In such an environment the good of the many is the only real option and on top of that it will be the good of the many right now. Because while 6 has been a workable time the membership could shift in such a way that 7 or 8 works better, but it is much like trying to establish a foothold on shifting sand.

Near the end of WoTLK expansion I didn't get to raid as much and missed out on some things I had worked towards being a part of (namely Kingslayer title), that could not be helped because it was RL that got in the way but it was disappointing.

So here is my crazy suggestion - Pray about and ask others in the guild to pray about whatever the frustration might be - God answers prayer and it is not trivial to Him that we acknowledge Him and ask Him to guide us - even in our relaxation time. God may open up other opportunities, reshuffle things or simply provide a peace and contentment that you need at this time.

I am thankful that we have leadership willing to listen, and members willing to share their hearts on these forums - that is something to praise God for!
 
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