To Joblow

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]Also, while no known fact of science contradicts the Bible, one can also argue that no known fact of Christianity contradicts science. It's a moot point.

Except that Judiasm, Christianity and the Bible all existed before known facts of science. Christianity doesn't validate science. Science has been validating the God of the bible. Christians embrace this while atheists concoct radical theories that remove God from the equation. And then claim that the bible contradicts their theories, which is of course true, they removed God from the equation. The reality of the situation is that their theories contradict the bible as it was them who created the theories to do just that. And in by doing so, most (if not all) the theories also contradict science.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ July 21 2004,9:53)]No, off the top of my head theres the verse in Job that talks about how the world hangs on nothing. The Bible also mentions dinosaurs before paleontology existed. Here is a neat site that lists all of the things the Bible says. For me the site came off a little petty at first, but if you think about the points they make, it makes a lot of sense.

I think what's in question here is not what facts of what contradict what, but what exactly makes a fact factual? GP made the distinction between facts and theories, saying that there were theories that went against the Bible but that they could not be yet proven. The same goes for the Bible, only there is no real way to 'prove' them. If you're going up against science, you have to play by the same rules.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 21 2004,10:41)]

Quote[/b] ]Also, while no known fact of science contradicts the Bible, one can also argue that no known fact of Christianity contradicts science.  It's a moot point.

Except that Judiasm, Christianity and the Bible all existed before known facts of science.  Christianity doesn't validate science.  Science has been validating the God of the bible.  Christians embrace this while atheists concoct radical theories that remove God from the equation.  And then claim that the bible contradicts their theories, which is of course true, they removed God from the equation.  The reality of the situation is that their theories contradict the bible as it was them who created the theories to do just that.  And in by doing so, most (if not all) the theories also contradict science.

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by 'known facts of science' and them not existing before religions..because, well, any discovery, for instance fire, could be considered scientific. But that's irrelevant, I know what you're saying. I'm not sure why you're talking about atheists...this is science versus religion, not atheism versus religion. But I would recommend that you not stereotype, you do not understand the way they think.

 

[Avesther]

I suppose you are stereotyping me somehow because you don't understand the way I think. Nonetheless: Known fact of science indicates something becoming or being of knowledge, being known. A fact of science may well exist without it being known by man. Therefore, you can have unknown facts of science.

This does not change anything. The bible, Judiasm and Christianity were all making statements about the natural world long before science confirmed it. Science has also confimed a great deal of things that is not mentioned in the bible, but lack of acknowledgment does not equate to contradiction either.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 21 2004,11:51)]I suppose you are stereotyping me somehow because you don't understand the way I think.  Nonetheless:  Known fact of science indicates something becoming or being of knowledge, being known.  A fact of science may well exist without it being known by man.  Therefore, you can have unknown facts of science.

This does not change anything.  The bible, Judiasm and Christianity were all making statements about the natural world long before science confirmed it.  Science has also confimed a great deal of things that is not mentioned in the bible, but lack of acknowledgment does not equate to contradiction either.

I won't be so naive as to think that I understand how you think, but I do think that I'm a little more open to new ideas than you are. The concept you're bringing up is interesting..I've never looked at it from that angle before, but I believe you may be getting a little ahead of yourself. To say that scientific discovery is only comfirming things already written in the Bible, or things that were 'left out' of the Bible, is kind of far fetched. I think you should give credit where credit is due..science has made quite a few discoveries that were not listed or hinted at in the Bible, some of them that seem to challenge what is written in the Bible. I think you may be assuming too much if you say that science 'validates Christianity'..

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ] I think you may be assuming too much if you say that science 'validates Christianity'

I think you are assuming too much in the flip side of the arguement.

Quote[/b] ]I'm a little more open to new ideas than you are

Quote[/b] ]I've never looked at it from that angle before

I've read these two point you brought up over and over again.  The way I see, I am open to more ideas then you in that I can cause you to look at things from different angles.  I create new ideas for you to explore and thus, I am must be more open minded.

Quote[/b] ]To say that scientific discovery is only comfirming things already written in the Bible, or things that were 'left out' of the Bible, is kind of far fetched.

I didn't say that scientific discovery confirms things not in the bible.  Your judgement of me being far fetched is based on a definate misunderstanding.  I said, that just because science discovers something the bible doesn't mention does not mean that science and the bible contradict each other.

You go further to say:

Quote[/b] ] I think you should give credit where credit is due..science has made quite a few discoveries that were not listed or hinted at in the Bible

Which just confirms what I said.

Quote[/b] ] some of them that seem to challenge what is written in the Bible.

Only the theories that were created to remove God from the equation challange the bible.  But then, the theories are doing exactly what they were designed to do: remove God from the equation.  So those very theories by design and nature are meant to contradict themselvs with the bible.  Even though the science behind it, does not.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 21 2004,2:39)]

Quote[/b] ] I think you may be assuming too much if you say that science 'validates Christianity'

I think you are assuming too much in the flip side of the arguement.

Quote[/b] ]I'm a little more open to new ideas than you are

Quote[/b] ]I've never looked at it from that angle before

I've read these two point you brought up over and over again.  The way I see, I am open to more ideas then you in that I can cause you to look at things from different angles.  I create new ideas for you to explore and thus, I am must be more open minded.

Quote[/b] ]To say that scientific discovery is only comfirming things already written in the Bible, or things that were 'left out' of the Bible, is kind of far fetched.

I didn't say that scientific discovery confirms things not in the bible.  Your judgement of me being far fetched is based on a definate misunderstanding.  I said, that just because science discovers something the bible doesn't mention does not mean that science and the bible contradict each other.

You go further to say:

Quote[/b] ] I think you should give credit where credit is due..science has made quite a few discoveries that were not listed or hinted at in the Bible

Which just confirms what I said.

Quote[/b] ] some of them that seem to challenge what is written in the Bible.

Only the theories that were created to remove God from the equation challange the bible.  But then, the theories are doing exactly what they were designed to do: remove God from the equation.  So those very theories by design and nature are meant to contradict themselvs with the bible.  Even though the science behind it, does not.

Honestly I probably am assuming too much on the flip side of the arguement, but at least I'll admit that. As for the open mindedness thing, I'm not going to argue, that will only get messy.

I think you are being a taaad bit cynical. Maybe very cynical, actually. Theories are designed specifically to leave God out of the equation and contradict the bible? Excuse me, but, what are you basing this on? I understand what you are saying, and I still believe that it is very far fetched. I think this is an idea that you've been crafting and reinforcing in your mind for quite some time now...but I doubt that it is based on formidable substance. Scientists are not necessarily against religions; their goal is to find the truth.

 

[Avesther]

The theory of evolution was designed specifically to leave God out of creation.
Many theories of abiogenesis (sp?) also were designed specifically to leave God out of Creation.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 22 2004,6:41)]The theory of evolution was designed specifically to leave God out of creation.
Many theories of abiogenesis (sp?) also were designed specifically to leave God out of Creation.

How can you logically put God in the equation? Science is based on being able to prove things. You cannot 'prove' God, he is a concept that is beyond scientific comprehension. God is kept out of the equation because, scientifically, he does not make sense. God is not kept ouf of the equation so scientists can contradict the bible. They are merely on a tireless quest to make sense of the world. It's a different way of looking at things, but it does not mean that they are against religious belief.

 

[Grand Master]

Quote[/b] ]I'm trying very hard to come up with a scientific breakthrough that contradicts the bible. There is not a known fact of science that contradicts the bible. Many theories of science contradict the Bible, but no known fact of science does.

Of course there are. There are many. You just can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the Bible is wrong in any respect.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Of course there are. There are many. You just can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the Bible is wrong in any respect.

Care to share your wisdom on where it is wrong?

Cory

 

[Master~Plan]

hmm, Cory called your bluff man, u got anything on the Bible?

 

[Grand Master]

Called my bluff? I don't think so. I've been very busy the past few days. I expect to be posting my response soon...

 

[PapaToad]

I look forward to your answer. I eagerly await yor response

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ July 25 2004,9:42)]I look forward to your answer. I eagerly await yor response

Yay for redundancy! : )

 

[Master~Plan]

^

heh cut the guy some slack, its not easy to learn english as a second language

 

[lucky_caco]

I think that for purposes of clarity if the parties involved in this discussion would define Science or Scientific Facts it could help a great deal.

As I understand it , a scientific fact is :

1. Measurable
2. Observable
3. Repeatable

Those criteria are pretty much the basis for most of our discoveries and why many things remain theories.

ie. evolution is not observable . repeatable. measurable.

As for the bible being right or wrong on matters of science. Scripture has been very very advanced compared to the cultures and times it was written in matters of science. For instance. As has already been pointed out scripture has many verses indicating a world that is spherical whn at that time the surrounding cultures believed that we were on the back of a giant tortise walking around the solar system.

The only other thing Ive been thinking of as i read this post, is that the bible is not a science manual. It is a book whose focus is God bringing man back to himself. If it is less than thorough in its scientific observations thats ok since it isnt trying to give us a complete understanding of why things happen.

ie. crop rotation is taught but not explained.