Christian College..

[silverleaf]

Well that may just work. Explain that you're from the CGA and play with other christians, and honestly don't leave the boxes around, it is unlikely people will be able to recognize an M rated game immediately. Between call of duty and CS:S? From someone who plays very little shooters, I sure can't recognize the two just by casually observing someone from a distance.

Maybe the rule was supposed to block those games with lots of sexual refrences or worse in it. Stuff like those hentai eroge games. Things we should all stay FAAARRRR away from yet sometimes so tempting. Those games even I have an issue with, and that's coming from a /b/tard. But at least it's still better than real porn. Now put away those Japanese H games and you're fine (ewww). JKJK

So TL;DR
I believe that rule is sadly reflective on how outsiders perceive the gaming scene, with all that useless garbage the media are throwing around. OMG YOU BEAT UP SOMEONE IN GTA YOU ARE A BAD PERSON. However, to someone who doesn't play games, it is perceived as desire to do evil, that you would do it in real life if there wasn't anything to stop you. The blanket ban is made out of ignorance and pure contempt, and maybe laziness. My guess is it was intended to block pornography and those oh so wonderful H games. Counterstrike and camp of camp: camp camp 2 should be fine.

 

[grimsauce]

Well, I don't play with Christian gamers most of the time- but that shouldn't mean anything. Jesus surrounded himself with 'bad' people, and although I'm not Jesus, I do believe I should be in the presence of people who don't know him as often as I can! And I believe that I set an example for people when I play multiplayer games.

The argument i've gotten is that it may cause others to sin- but like I said before, there is a gray line between M and T violence- and if beating people up or shooting people causes someone to stumble, then they should just ban violent games.. not M games. WoW, like I said, is built around fighting stuff... same with SSB and tons of other games that are technically appropriate.

i'm going to talk with my RA in a few minutes... I'm thinking he will just tell me to follow the rule because it's a rule... and I will make the point that if I am within power to protest the rule (nonviolently) and have good reasoning, I should do so.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Jesus surrounded himself with 'bad' people, and although I'm not Jesus, I do believe I should be in the presence of people who don't know him as often as I can!

It's true Jesus hung out with "bad" people to minster to them (I know technically everyone was "bad" compared to Jesus ) but he also had times when he sent the masses away and was alone with his disciples or alone praying. For imperfect us it is vanity to think we can hang out with whoever we want for as long as we want and remain unchanged by them. No matter how strong our will is it is finite. No we aren't meant to hide away from the world either but to be salt and light there are times we need to be alone with God or be in fellowship with other Christians to grow in faith and knowledge. Christianity is not just about hanging out with the unsaved we need to cultivate that spiritual armor to be in the world. I assume the point of going to Christian school is to put aside earthly things, focus on cultivating faith and knowledge and "get your head in the game" so to speak. It is not to start a ministry but prepare for one. I think the rule may have been intended to help one do that by theoretically removing the games most juxtaposed to Christian values. Once again going off a secular rating system is not perfect some T games could be inappropriate some M games may be ok by Christian standards but not every institution has the manpower to grade each game individually. The line was no doubt drawn were it was easiest. They also could have said no games period to cover all bases but if you are this upset over the loss of some games do you think the majority of people would tolerate going cold turkey to a monastic lifestyle?

 

[silverleaf]

the problem is a rule is a rule and don't expect a college to change that just for you to fit in. I'd advise confronting anyone about it. However know that this rule doesn't have its place, and violent games don't cause people to sin more than anything else.
Anything can cause one to sin. Its just that games are overrepresented in the media, prompting paranoid and stupid stuff like this to happen. I'm tired of all this useless chatter about games being bad around where I live, where virtually every week there's at least one such report using scare tactics. Unfortunately, they sell. And the media wants to sell.

I don't believe anyone should be telling me what I can or can't do online, rather my own values and morals guide me. If you think its gona cause you to sin, drop it. Just cause some people are uncomfortable with it, doesn't mean they should ban it.

Or I'm going to get driving banned cos I'm uncomfortable with being rammed down by some hoon.
The hoon should be banned (maybe in your place they call them goons but in aus its the hoon in the holden ) from driving, not anyone else.

The bible had lots of bloodshed in it. King David, arguably one of the holiest man in the Bible, shed A LOT of blood. Me killing crooks, soviets and monsters, as well as bringing the fight to Ogrimmar is justified.
And me shooting up civilians in GTA4 is fine too as I wouldn't even want to do that IRL. However I like my simulation. I like to play the bad guy now and then for a while. I don't think that makes me a bad guy.

If what these carebears say are right, then anyone who has played police and thief when they were kids and enjoyed playing the thief are going to grow up as bad people.

I curse and swear in game lobbies in warcraft 3 (not with my ToJ tag on don't worry), and say lots of racist/hate speech stuff intended to make people disgusted. However I don't mean any of the stuff I say, it's just to be cool and make some LULZ. And no one takes it seriously. However, to an outsider, I would be deemed a nuisance and in need of detention.

 

[Abba San]

Silverleaf - I've been reading this and other threads where you have posted concerns about your liberties and rules. You summarize it very well with your recent statement:

I don't believe anyone should be telling me what I can or can't do online, rather my own values and morals guide me.

One reason colleges - businesses - most places - even this forum has rules is that we don't know everyone who drops by and gets involved. We don't know their past or their motives, their values or their morals. Yet, we are value based and hold to a moral standard. To maintain that kind of environment we establish certain rules, policies, or whatever you want to call them so anyone coming into these forums - they know up front the expected behaviors for being considered a valued participant.

You are a member of ToJ because you agreed to our rules. We have our rules so people will know what is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. While we cannot tell you what you can and can't do online - we can tell you what you can and can't do in our forums. For instance, when you say:

I curse and swear in game lobbies in warcraft 3 (not with my ToJ tag on don't worry), and say lots of racist/hate speech stuff intended to make people disgusted. However I don't mean any of the stuff I say, it's just to be cool and make some LULZ. And no one takes it seriously. However, to an outsider, I would be deemed a nuisance and in need of detention.

If you did any of that here you would be warned - maybe even banned. It is unacceptable, certainly not "cool," and would not be tolerated. I'm not sure who the "outsider" in your final sentence is, but that kind of behavior would make you the outsider here. The fact that you feel free to do that elsewhere - well...that says more about you than about our rules or the rules of others.

It sounds to me like you've experienced some bad rules along the way and so you want to say all rules are bad - except those rules you establish for yourself - your values and morals. There are good rules and we are better for living by them.

I'm telling you this because I've enjoyed your input in the forums and wouldn't want to see you cross a line and not be welcome here. I don't always agree with your opinions but that is more than okay - that is what this forum is for - different opinions and discussion of those opinions. You and your opinions are welcome here - just remember the rules.

God bless you.

 

[Tek7]

You are a member of ToJ because you agreed to our rules. We have our rules so people will know what is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. While we cannot tell you what you can and can't do online - we can tell you what you can and can't do in our forums.

QFT.

It's relatively rare that disciplinary measures are necessary in the Christian gaming community, but the rules are clearly stated and the tools for disciplinary action are in place and at the ready if the situation arises.

That being said, conflict mediation and disciplinary measures are two of my least favorite aspects of my responsibilities in our community. It's in everyone's best interest (mine included) for forums members to post in accordance with the rules.

In short: Follow the forums rules and we're good. Break the rules and we'll enforce the Terms of Service.

 

[Abba San]

Amen to that.

 

[Durruck]

Interesting. I'd missed the last several posts in this thread somehow. I also just came from the Word Association thread, so I'm going to pull a similar move and post about the first thing that came to mind - rules.

Ancient Israelites had to follow over 600 rules (Laws), based on the Old Testament. When confronted about which was the most important commandment of the The Law, Jesus answered to love God, the second is to love your neighbor. (Matthew 22:36-40) What is peculiar about this particular quote is verse 40 - "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Of course, we know that Jesus was quoting Deut 6:5 by stating that loving God, and Lev 19:18 by stating loving our neighbor were the most important laws. But what's really neat is that all of the other laws, all 611 of the other laws, depict ways to love God and our neighbor. So All the Law really does hang on those two commandments. But at the same time, we have to realize that those 613 laws were culture-based. There are certain things that they did that we would never do. There are things that we can do that they were forbidden. Our culture, our medicine, our society does perceive things a bit differently. Polygamy is forbidden to us. Concubines (baby-making machines in place of a barren wife) are completely unheard of. Slavery is detestable by our standards, but common 3000 years ago (or even 120 years ago, here) But we can eat pigs, we can cut our hair, shave our face... women don't have to wear dresses or cover their heads, etc.

The Israelites didn't view the Law as a burden - they welcomed it as an example of how to prove that they were truly set apart for God. Perhaps we need to keep that in mind, too. Abiding by the rules help to show what we really are. And maybe we need to take that example and live it in all places. If I talk clean here, and act nice at church... but then someone sees me in public cussing and hating and stirring trouble... aren't I the worst kind of hypocrite? Does it really matter that I'm not wearing a Christian-themed shirt if I'm still acting inappropriately? Of course not. There shouldn't be two sides to your personality. There shouldn't be a "nice face" that we put on here, or church, or at the grocery store. We should be the same God-fearing, God-loving, neighbor-loving person regardless of where we are.

 

[silverleaf]

Sorry, that wasn't exactly what I meant. Thats what places like /b/ are for, when I need to express myself. I abide by the rules of the game, and the rules of the site. Follow the rules of the virtual land. Here and when I'm wearing a guild's tag, be it ToJ or others, I am an ambassador of the guild, and must therefore be civil and diplomatic. However, this is what I CHOOSE to do. No one forced me to join or not join this place, and I willingly and gladly take up and uphold my side of the bargain by being nice here and whenever I wear my ToJ tag. No swearing in starcraft 2, this is gona take some getting used to. What I meant when I said no one has the right to peer over my shoulder is that no one should put up a filter saying I can't join ToJ for instance, or that I can't play diablo, GTA4, etc.

When I'm here, I'm bound by your set of rules, and more, as I want to contribute to the good image of whatever clan I'm in. Especially more so for the Christian ones.
What I'm talking about is GOVERNMENT BACKED filtering, like the one thanks to the collective efforts of anon, we shot down. (details here http://nocleanfeed.com/) Major win for a free internet, plan will only be reviewed in 2012, and no doubt we will give them hell again. A government should be afraid of its people.

No one mentioned breaking any rules. The places I rant/rave/troll in have no rules. And the whole point is the forum is anonymous, trolling is not only allowed but encouraged as it adds to the flavor and drama of the place. A free internet at its finest. Now I'd be mighty mad if the filter did go up. I'd fight censorship to the death, rioting in the streets if I must, if peaceful protests don't work.

Now back to this case. Rules are rules, yes. But for a long time, discrimination of religion, sex, race and background were set into the rules. We fought for what is right, and have made significant progress there. There are places where the rule of the land is you must belong to X religion. This is discrimination against gamers, a sub section of society. All I advice is to keep on fragging and try to do so discretely. In my old school at least, many of the more minor and misguided rules are often overlooked if you are otherwise a good student and don't go doing what you're doing in front of everyone and being a bad influence. There is a no swearing rule in my elementary school, but it was something everyone did, discretely among their group of friends. You're not going to achieve anything protesting ALONE. Petitions/protests/IRL drama takes a lot of people. Talking to the head honcho alone who has been brainwashed by all these fear mongering media articles bashing gaming isn't going to work.

You share room with someone in power apparently. If you can get him on your side and explain your views to him, it may be a good start.

 

[Odale]

...Now back to this case. Rules are rules, yes. But for a long time, discrimination of sex, race and background were set into the rules. We fought for what is right, and have made significant progress there. This is discrimination against gamers. All I advice is to keep on fragging...

You say this, but then you state you make racist comments etc to make others laugh. You utilize oppression to make others laugh (which is never acceptable) but at the same time you're against oppression.

I don't understand.

I personally don't mind the cursing so much, but racism, sexism etc is never acceptable. Ever. Just because you don't have a flag over your head that says "I'm a Christian" doesn't mean you can stop acting like one.

I know no one is perfect, I'm no different... but there really is no place for racism, etc.

/off soapbox

 

[silverleaf]

You are right, I won't tolerate racism, sexism, or any baseless discrimination against any subgroup of society IRL. However, I won't tolerate any censorship online.

Keep real life and cyberspace separate. No IRL power should be telling me what I can do online, and no online power should be telling me what I can do IRL.

I'm of oriental descent if it makes any difference. I respect people's rights to throw slurs at me online so long as I'm allowed to do the same against them. However that wouldn't be so nice IRL would it? But I won't degrade myself to that level. While it is wrong, and I don't like it, I hate censorship more than that.

Put again simply: I hate much of what is going on online, but I hate censorship more. Any form of censorship is bad, but some is necessary. For example, while preventing my future young kids (if I have any) from seeing some inappropriate sites and checking his MSN friends list every now and again is wrong, very wrong even, it is necessary because I need to protect him from some old pedo lurking somewhere. So in this scenario, the practical need (protecting my kids) outweighs the idealistic needs (a free internet).

Idealism is idealism, I try not to take it too seriously. We all need our beliefs to keep us going, and idealism itself is just that, ideas and opinions. The world doesn't run the way I want it to, and where possible and practical to do so, I try to shape it to what I think is right.

About the wc3 jokes, these arn't really meant to make pple laugh as much as it is intended to offend. Like I said, I don't believe what I say, even make jokes against my own race. However, I just love to see their rage response.
I just steer clear of making jokes about religion, even a /b/tard has his limits. However I respect others' rights to mock mine, just as I have a right to mock theirs, provided I'm not on a game/forum/site that has a rule against that. I will just /ignore them and not go around BAWWing.

So power to the admins, take away power from the state, INSTITUTIONS (thats where this college goes under, it is an institution) and ISP. I should only have to abide by the rules of the admins, and no where else (unless I'm wearing my guild tag). Power away from the powerblocs in areas they have no right to interfere. More importantly, where interfering isn't going to make a difference. For example, just because I'm not allowed to say I hate X doesn't mean I stop hating X.


IMPORTANT: IF YOU ARE USING THE INTERNET PROVIDED BY THEM then you have no right to complain lol but that's obvious.
If they are providing you the internet and you are on their system, then its their rules, just like I'm on your site now and must abide by your rules.

Quick TL;DR of my beliefs: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it to the death. Notice SAY. Not DO.

However I don't expect many of you to understand, its hard enough to find like minded people who believe in freedom above all else even within the chans and anonymous itself, even harder to find outsiders interested.

 

[Sassamo]

First of all, 'Virtual' IS In Real Life. Saying offensive things to see their 'rage', that rage is In Real Life based on something you said. It's anonymous? Not anonymous from God... Censorship is bad? What kind, the kind that says what you should or shouldn't do(God's laws, believing in Christ), or those that restrict what you can/will do(Heaven or Hell, that's not an guideline, it's a permanent destination)?

Forum rules, guild tag, those are 'temporary' labels, you should always wear the 'Christian' tag. Anonymous or not, you're supposed to be representing Christ always.

As for the OP, rules are rules. Again, yeah, maybe you can get away with something with the administrators, but God still see's the rules being broken. You're still going to have that 'guilty conscience' as you try to get away with it, a clear indicator that you shouldn't be doing it(it seems as though currently this isn't your intent, I'm just giving a hypothetical). It's fine to petition your concerns for overbearing rules in a peaceful manner, but it's a totally different story to take things into your own hands. It's not that hard to make a few small sacrifices, temporary at that.

 

[Abba San]

Sassamo - you are absolutely right about virtual life and real life being one life, and a Christian being a Christian all the time - thanks.

 

[grimsauce]

@silverleaf

I don't plan on breaking the rules, because although you don't believe one person can do anything, I do. From the looks of it, you kind of have assumed that the leadership that made these rules think that video games are evil- if that was the case, I'm sure all video games would be banned. I think, instead, they believe that many M rated games aren't appropriate for Christians (R rated movies are blocked as well). But, there is list of approved R rated movies based on having redeemable value... i think Gladiator is on that list? I find both the rules a bit, troublesome, but instead of just breaking the rules, I'd rather protest them (non-violently of course).

Paul tells the Romans to submit to the authorities- and as long as a law isn't conflicting with Gods laws, I believe that's the right way to live. By "fasting" from M rated games (while it's a rule) I am giving glory to God, as it is a sacrifice made out of devotion to Him... not because I'm afraid of getting in trouble, but because I believe it is the right thing to do.

Now, if I am able to get the Student Government to raise the question of what makes a game unreasonable in the Christian school- be it language, blood/gore, realistic violence, or w/e... then I think I may be able to show them that I can remove the blood from counter-strike, perhaps removing the "realistic" part and having it allowed.

With all of my classes, anxiety about listening to God's call, and my desire to be social, I have had a much smaller desire to play games anyway... But, I will still be trying to get the Administration to question their rules about it. There has been talk of an "allowed" game list- but finding redeemable value in games is pretty stupid (People are trying to say games like COD:WaW is redeemable because in single player you go through major battles of WW:II... but the vast majority of hours are spent in multiplayer in an FPS like that!)

 

[silverleaf]

If you don't stand up for whats right, discriminating and unjust rules will continue to exist, is all I'm trying to say now. If someone made a rule where you had to kiss the feet of your neighborhood politician and he can take what he wants, when he wants from you any time he pleases, will you not break them and make a stand? Not saying you should totally disrespect the institution and everything they stand for, only saying you should make a stand and campaign for change. We're not talking one man protest, but demonstrations don't seem very likely either.

Though I'd really like to see a mob outside holding banners saying "media, back off from our games" "video games improve lives" and "games are good for you", there is no need to do that in my place... yet. However it will be nice to counter the mob in the government and institutions lobbying against games.

As for my ideals, sorry if they seem inappropriate, they don't matter, not here anyway. Beliefs are beliefs and I keep it as that. Not many outside people understand, and I surely wasn't expecting any from a place that puts high emphasis on morals (not that I don't), I'm used to that. Basically, I believe in freedom of expression (wikileaks/sunshinepress style), not freedom to do whatever, whenever as you have implied. I understand that unfortunately, there are bad pple who are going to abuse this power, by making death threats, bomb threats and stirring up trouble. However, my hate of censorship outweighs my hate of that happening. Basically it is based on 3 principles, 1-on the debating table, everyone is equal 2-people should be punished only for their actions, not their beliefs 3-no party should attempt to suppress the voice of another.

 

[RyanB]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I don't have much to add, but I will reiterate that people on the other end of an online game ARE real people. My wife plays games with me a lot now (woohoo!), but one are where she is super-resistant is anything involving playings with others, ESPECIALLY voice chat. If the option to mute is there, we do, and it makes her much more comfortable. (and we play on the PS3)

On the flip side, I've been privileged enough to see lives changed through relationships made online, especially with my time in Guild Wars. It's amazing what happens when folks understand that people online TRULY care about them, don't "judge" them, and have their best interests at heart. People will open up to "virtual people" about their deepest, darkest secrets...the problems that are killing them but they try to hide from the world.

I'd encourage folks to keep fostering these real relationships so that when help is needed, people get Godly help from us instead of being dragged down by the world.

One last thing as far as expressing ourselves...

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Matt 15:15-20)

Just remember that the things that come out of us are from our hearts. I'm not going to judge yours because it's impossible to know motivations and I understand that many in online sub-cultures (/b/, live, etc), insulting one's mother isn't necessarily meant as offensive. I'd just caution us all to constantly re-examine ourselves and make sure we're shining for Christ always, because if we're not, we really need to look back at our hearts.

 

[Sassamo]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but it seems as though you're putting your love of 'Freedom of Speech' above your love of God. Of course, that is your choice to do so, but it clearly violates the number 1 commandment in the entire bible, loving God above all else.

 

[Odale]

My opinion on the OP is that the rule is there for a reason. Even if you don't like it, it's still there and you must obey it.

If you don't like it I think it's tough. I'm assuming this Christian college is a private school because it's Christian (I can't imagine that being funded and operated by the government). Because it's private (assuming) you'll have a really hard time getting them to change the rules because they aren't part of the government... its in the private sector and when you start there, you'll be under their rules. If you really don't like it (and I think others who have posted in this thread dislike it more so than you do, Grim) then you should probably look for a different school.

 

[silverleaf]

If you are using their internet, and using their services, and living in their space, then case closed, you are bound by the rules, just like how I am bound by your TOS right now.

Yes, I love freedom of speech, it is an ideal I value highly, in fact, highest under heaven. However, as mentioned, I won't attack a christian website even if all of 4chan is raiding. Because God comes first. Heavenly above earthly, practical above ideals.

However, while you must respect the rules, challenging the rules and bringing them to debate is not necessarily a bad thing. Lawmakers are people too, and need correction too sometimes. I think what you can't wrap your head around is that rules are made by people, and people make mistakes. Rules get outdated, or fail to work. Not all policies work as intended. I know, ran several guilds. I value feedback. The leader who does not accept feedback or consider correction will suffer defeat.

I'm not saying throw all the rules out. However, make a stand for what you believe in. If someone made a rule (more like brought back) discriminating based on race, sex, religion,social position, we would no doubt rise up and fight it. This is a rule I feel is against my segment of society (gamers). No different from how gardening shouldn't be a crime, or how being any nationality shouldn't be a crime. I belong to a group of society known as gamers. I feel our rights to express ourselves in a non harmful way is being threatened. Make that known.

If everyone just blindly followed unjust rules, the world will be a much worse place, and half the world will be in slavery. Respect the rules, know they should have a purpose. However, rules are made for people, not people for rules. The only point I really have against the prev few threads is 'following the rules just cos they are rules'. You could run away from this institution (something you're not prepared to do), but you won't be making a difference. You won't be making a stand for what you believe in, which is all life's about to me. You may have a more passive personality, but it is your choice. Do you want to make a stand in the name of gaming, run away, or hide?

Sorry if this seems critical, but it is the way I see it, discrimination against gamers. Just like how we ended discrimination against sex, race, nationality and social strata, we should end discrimination against gamers. I feel it is the superior sport, but admit those people playing footy are people too and don't deserve to be crushed underfoot. As much as I hate the sport of football, swimming, badminton, insert IRL sport here, I won't prevent them from doing it for no good reason. Sure, they can't play inside my room full of antiques, but that is because of the harm they may cause.

So I feel the rule should be changed to no violent games ON CAMPUS on OUR INTERNET in front of PEOPLE WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE INFLUENCED. The cybercafe is just a kilometre out, go there. Or, get a laptop, like me

My campus doesn't allow gaming, social networking, bittorrenting, watching videos on their network, and they have every right to do so. It is their internet, and I should be thankful they are giving me access to it at all.

My opinion on the OP is that the rule is there for a reason. Even if you don't like it, it's still there and you must obey it.

In ancient history, there were many times christianity was banned. Slavery was legal. Discrimination based on ethnicity, sex and being of the elite was commonplace (and we're not talking underage drunken/high warcraft 3 waiting room trashtalk here, thankfully for the well prepared anon like me, that is still happening). There were a lot of bad rules. People stood up, and made a stand for what they believed in. Freedom and equality for all. Still a work in progress in some parts of the world that most of us don't really care about, but turn your gaze sometimes towards the developing world, you can see how people are still persecuted for their faith, race, sex and so on.

But you are free to have your opinion. You can join one of the nationalist parties, you can even advocate for discrimination of all these things to return. That, to me, is the beauty of the internet. I can talk here (so long as I follow the rules of the debating table/forums) without proxies, without having to fear some dictator is going to hunt me down and kill me. And that is what I believe is worth protecting. EVEN IF doing so means people can insult me online. Even if it means people can attempt to lobby to get me driven out and back to 'where they came from'. Even if people can insult me with racial slurs straight to the face in some thread on /b/. There will always be people who abuse their civil rights. That is the beauty of it. I don't expect this thread to end with us all agreeing with each other. A million different voices is what I like to see. Even if half of those are calling for my death.

 

[Abba San]

So there we have it – grimsause raised an issue about gaming at his college – got good input and advice – thanked us all for our help and support – and has a plan to proceed. That was by the middle of page two in the thread, 12 posts later. Since then the discussion has been less and less about grimsause’s original situation, and more and more about trying to help, figure out or inform silverleaf.

So…this thread is officially closed for three reasons.

1) It accomplished the purpose of the one who initiated the thread.


2) The title of this forum is, What Does God Say About… I appreciate those of you who support your opinions with scripture – that is what God says about the situation. When the focal point of the opposing view (in this case silverleaf’s) relies on personal passion and feelings rather than scripture the result is what we see here – circular arguments based on illogical thinking and unbiblical perspectives.


3) Some of you might say, “But we are trying to get through to silverleaf.” God bless you for trying – and a good try it was. For whatever reason, clearly, silverleaf is not getting it and is not swayed. “But as Christians, don’t we have to keep trying?” Well…no, we don’t. At least not while the person is not willing to hear or think.

A 15 year old girl shared a verse with me yesterday:

The words of a fool start fights; do him a favor and gag him. Proverbs 18:6 (MSG)

The idea is that you are doing him a favor by putting a stop to his silly talk. I don’t know silverleaf at all – at least not any more than his posts reveal. I’m not saying he is a fool – but his words are foolish and argumentative. The Bible is clear how we deal with people who persist in a certain way of relating:

Warn a quarrelsome person once or twice, but then be done with him. It's obvious that such a person is out of line, rebellious against God. By persisting in divisiveness he cuts himself off. Titus 3:10-11 (MSG)

My hope is that silverleaf is just young, or not familiar with scripture, or is working through some tough times – and that would explain some of his post positions. I also hope that at some point he will be open to What God Has to Say About… and not be confined to his own feelings and thoughts.

If anyone wants to discuss my action further, including silverleaf, feel free to PM me. I’m pretty good about replying in reasonable time.

Again, thank you - all of you. You make this forum very lively and interesting.