Do you believe my Atheistic views are unreasonable?

[Azzie]

i think that in Christianity the solution to that cycle is merely honestly admitting to oneself and acknowledging that the self IS ungodly.

 

[Marcylene]

Yes, sir I can empathize with your frustration. Do I fully comprehend what you are going through, would I know how to deal with the same situation? No, on both counts.

Sometimes it frightens me that you know the Bible and its promises, I think, as well as I do. I shudder to think I could read the Bible and not believe.

I know that you know God's promises contained in Scripture. Looking at the parable of the lost sheep and coin, then reading that God is no respecter of persons...I know in my heart that He would come to save you if you were the only one that needed Salvation. I firmly believe that He cares about you and will work in your life even now. I know that in everything that we experience, according to II Corinthians 1:4, we have the comfort of God that we may bring comfort to others. Perhaps you are going through this to help others down the road, maybe your assistance is needed here to get us in line!

Brother Lester Roloff said not to give up on anyone until they had been dead for three days! Of course, his point being to never give up. I don't intend to give up, and I hope and pray that you won't either. God is always a prayer away, but patience must have her perfect work in us...I just consider you, like all of us, a work in progress.

 

[Dark Virtue]

i think that in Christianity the solution to that cycle is merely honestly admitting to oneself and acknowledging that the self IS ungodly.

Isn't that SAD though?

I admit that I cringe every time Marcy starts talking about how worthless humans beings are without the grace of God.

I find far too much self loathing in Christianity.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Yes, sir I can empathize with your frustration. Do I fully comprehend what you are going through, would I know how to deal with the same situation? No, on both counts.

Interesting...You may not be able to fully comprehend my position, but keep in mind that I fully comprehend yours.

Sometimes it frightens me that you know the Bible and its promises, I think, as well as I do. I shudder to think I could read the Bible and not believe.

What is it that frightens you? The fact that I am just as familiar with the bible as you and still disbelieve. Or are you more frightened that you could find youself thinking like I do? I believe that's one of the reasons for so much hostility towards exChristians. There's an underlying fear that you could wind up just like me. I chose to take the red pill.

I know that you know God's promises contained in Scripture. Looking at the parable of the lost sheep and coin, then reading that God is no respecter of persons...I know in my heart that He would come to save you if you were the only one that needed Salvation. I firmly believe that He cares about you and will work in your life even now. I know that in everything that we experience, according to II Corinthians 1:4, we have the comfort of God that we may bring comfort to others. Perhaps you are going through this to help others down the road, maybe your assistance is needed here to get us in line!

But I neither consider myself lost, nor in need of saving.

If God exists and cares about me, where was he during the years I followed him and asked for what I needed to carry on being a Christian? Even Thomas was given proof.

Brother Lester Roloff said not to give up on anyone until they had been dead for three days! Of course, his point being to never give up. I don't intend to give up, and I hope and pray that you won't either. God is always a prayer away, but patience must have her perfect work in us...I just consider you, like all of us, a work in progress.

I HAVE given up. I will no longer put forth any more effort, blood, sweat, tears or prayers. I spent far too many years begging for understanding.

Note that this is where many condemn me for denying God. I have not done so. I simply lack any evidence to believe in God. Moreover, I NEVER had it. What I had was a WANT, a DESIRE to believe.

 

[Azzie]

"Isn't that SAD though?"

Oh absolutely. But, like in most stories, there's always a supposed "happy ending to it all." At least, that's how the Christian mindset is about repentance.

 

[mjbee]

you ain't payin attention to what it says...

first off a quick intro, I'm not normal by any means as far as "Christians" go... I have a lot of fun, and poke fun (gently) at folks so don't take offenses too quickly at any of my answers (or jumping into this little fiesta so quickly)...

The reason for the apostle making the quote he did in Romans 1:20 is not understood the way you put it Dark Virtue. It isn't about "seeing invisible things" as you alluded (ghosties, fairies, elves and what not or renegade concrete yard gnomes). Rather it is saying that existence of creation in general points to a creator.

Much as seeing a painting on a wall says that someone "painted" it. I don't find your view point unreasonable just silly. There is more often than not another reason than "intellectual" honesty for rejecting God. To find out more, you got to read the entire chapter of Romans 1. I'll boil it down for you into a nutshell, people like sin so they want to disbelieve.

This is very much like the current debate going on in my home state of Louisiana. Many of the Katrina victims want to believe the federal government destroyed the levees in New Orleans with a bomb.

****
again, I am sometimes a forceful arguer (hopefully I can maintain a certain "Dark Humor" about things)...


<conditionally approved, please do not quote this in reply-to posts. Genesis1315>

 

[Jeff Raven]

I have to admit, I've only been reading up on these forums for a couple days, but in truth I like you DV. You're thoughtful and clearly intelligent, but you're missing a couple factors in you reasoning.

At a scene of a crime we can gather evidence that could lead us to the culprit. Before we understood fingerprints, we didn't always have the best evidence to find the right person who committed the crime. Once fingerprints were used as evidence, the process of investigation still wasn't exact. Now we're using DNA as evidence. The process of investigation improves even more. The point? Not all the evidence can be seen or understood for anything, including God. So we have Faith that he is there, taking our scraps of evidence where we can. You say you don't have enough evidence. Do you give up on the investigation if all you have is an empty room and an eye-witness of a dubious nature?

I submit to you a few questions.

We humans have a range of emotions from hate to jealousy to love and sadness. Why do we feel emotions? Why do we fall in love? Or hate someone? Why does carbon form bonds with oxygen, or chlorine or hydrogen, but can't form with Neon? Just how did DNA develop so that it self-corrects itself when it's replicated?

These questions by human understanding do not have answers. Do we dismiss them because we lack the evidence?

To answer your original question, yes I do think it is unreasonable to say you are an atheist, when it is clear you are not. You are a logical person, so instead I submit that you are agnostic, given that you do not have any evidence for the existence nor the non-existence of God.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I have to admit, I've only been reading up on these forums for a couple days, but in truth I like you DV. You're thoughtful and clearly intelligent, but you're missing a couple factors in you reasoning.

Thanks

At a scene of a crime we can gather evidence that could lead us to the culprit. Before we understood fingerprints, we didn't always have the best evidence to find the right person who committed the crime. Once fingerprints were used as evidence, the process of investigation still wasn't exact. Now we're using DNA as evidence. The process of investigation improves even more. The point? Not all the evidence can be seen or understood for anything, including God. So we have Faith that he is there, taking our scraps of evidence where we can.

It's interesting to note that the analogy you draw rests soundly on scientific principles. Yet you turn around and dismiss them to choose faith. What, exactly, do you consider scraps of evidence? I have come to a conclusion that one can't believe God exists unless one wants to believe God exists. That's how Faith works. I may not want to believe that gravity exists, but its effects are undeniable.

You say you don't have enough evidence. Do you give up on the investigation if all you have is an empty room and an eye-witness of a dubious nature?

Let's be specific here. Not only do I not have enough evidence to believe in God, I do not have a single, solitary shred of evidence to begin my investigation. How, exactly, would Sherlock Holmes go about finding someone that can't be experienced by natural phenomenon? To quote Holmes, "It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

I submit to you a few questions.

We humans have a range of emotions from hate to jealousy to love and sadness. Why do we feel emotions? Why do we fall in love? Or hate someone? Why does carbon form bonds with oxygen, or chlorine or hydrogen, but can't form with Neon? Just how did DNA develop so that it self-corrects itself when it's replicated?

These questions by human understanding do not have answers. Do we dismiss them because we lack the evidence?

No, we do not dismiss them because we don't have the answer.

Here is the difference between science and Christianity. Science isn't afraid to say, "I don't know" and continue to search for the answer. Christianity proudly sets forth answers without any foundation or support.

To answer your original question, yes I do think it is unreasonable to say you are an atheist, when it is clear you are not. You are a logical person, so instead I submit that you are agnostic, given that you do not have any evidence for the existence nor the non-existence of God.

Since Huxley coined the term, I will let his words define agnostic:

When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian or a freethinker, I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until at last I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis" -- had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion. [...]

So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic". It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant; and I took the earliest opportunity of parading it at our Society, to show that I, too, had a tail, like the other foxes. [Quoted in "Encylopaedia of Religion and Ethics", 1908, edited by James Hastings MA DD]

I bolded the most important part. Agnostics believe there is no solution to the problem, one can never know.

As an atheist, specifically, a weak/negative/implicit atheist, I simply lack a belief in gods.

Agnosticism and atheism are not interchangeable terms, just as Catholicism and Pretestantism are not interchangeable.

 

[Eon]

Look up hard versus soft atheism. DV is a soft atheist - that is, he has seen insufficient evidence to convince him that there is a god.

This is opposed to a hard atheist who believes there is no god. A subtle difference, I'll grant you, but a very real one.

 

[Macattak1]

Before you answer, please keep in mind the differences between strong atheism and weak atheism and the position that I uphold (weak).

I ask this question to determine WHY some of you think my stance is unreasonable.

Keep in mind that I base my beliefs on logic, reason, evidence and proof. The sum of each of those things, throughout my life, has left me lacking enough to clearly, undeniably believe in God, or any gods for that matter.

Many of you ardently assert that you, personally, have been given enough to warrant your belief in God.

I can honestly say that I do not. Now I know there are some of you that are just chomping at the bit to declare that, indeed, I have and I'm simply deluding myself because I harbor some ill will towards God and am using this to disbelieve in him. I assure you that I am not.

Whatever your answers are, I ask that you back them up with reason. If you think I am a liar, please tell me why. If you believe that I am being unreasonable, tell me why. If you think I'm delusional, tell me why.

Thank you.

Yes. But only because they do not line up with God's views. But I ams sure I fail there miserably too....

 

[Obscurity]

If you're looking for absolute, concrete proof that there is a God, then you will never find it. If it were possible to prove that God existed, if you could know that God were real, then you would never need faith.

You want evidence? The evidence is all around you, though you choose not to accept it. Look at the very fact that you exist. There is matter and energy in existence. Where did it come from? If at ever a time there was nothing in the universe, then guess what there would be today - nothing. So by looking around at this complex and amazing world we live in, you think it's more reasonable to believe that somehow energy has always existed than it is to believe that a personal Creator has always existed?

Look at the complexity of design. Just look at the human eye. Look at the complexity of one simple cell, or of DNA. How is it that life sprung from non-life? It seems to me a lot more reasonable to believe that these things are the result of a Creator.

What of morality? Look at all of human society that has existed across the span of recorded history. When was the last civilization you saw that taught it was ethically and morally good for a man to rape a 12 year old girl? What culture has ever taught that cold blooded murder is admirable, that lying, stealing, and cheating were virtues and not vices? Does not the clear and obvious idea of objective moral principles that span all of humanity point towards an objective standard? What right would we even have to call something good or bad, right or wrong if there were not an objective standard by which to judge these things? It seems to me a lot more reasonable to believe that there is a God that instilled these principles within us.

What about feelings of love, hate, and joy? You think it's more logical and reasonable to chalk these up to chemical reactions in your brain?

While your Descarte desiring standard for certainty will never be reached, there is enough evidence to have rational certitude for there being a Creator. The evidence is all around you. Personally, I don't believe that you are seeking for intellectual honesty and truly desiring after the truth. For if you were, I think reason would point you towards a Creator.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Look up hard versus soft atheism. DV is a soft atheist - that is, he has seen insufficient evidence to convince him that there is a god.

This is opposed to a hard atheist who believes there is no god. A subtle difference, I'll grant you, but a very real one.

I really don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

 

[cc.slim]

So how is it that our concept is so hard to grasp? Have you not felt the holy spirit washing down upon your body? Have you ever felt the power of our Lord lifting you up over a major obstacle. Those that has felt the true presence can relate and those on the outside are left wondering how and why? Foretold! Power and presence for those that desire and ask and accept!

 

[Dark Virtue]

So how is it that our concept is so hard to grasp? Have you not felt the holy spirit washing down upon your body? Have you ever felt the power of our Lord lifting you up over a major obstacle. Those that has felt the true presence can relate and those on the outside are left wondering how and why? Foretold! Power and presence for those that desire and ask and accept!

First, the concepts I was discussing and the concept you address here are two very, very different things.

To answer your questions:

Have you not felt the holy spirit washing down upon your body?

No, I have not. Would you mind explaining 1. what it feels like and 2. why you can't attribute it to anything other than God?

Have you ever felt the power of our Lord lifting you up over a major obstacle.

No, I have not.

To answer the rest of your post, I have desired and I have asked and yet, I have found nothing.

 

[Eon]

So how is it that our concept is so hard to grasp? Have you not felt the holy spirit washing down upon your body? Have you ever felt the power of our Lord lifting you up over a major obstacle. Those that has felt the true presence can relate and those on the outside are left wondering how and why? Foretold! Power and presence for those that desire and ask and accept!

I have to agree - I felt often the echo of old power in the churches, but I never felt anything within me personally. When I become acclimated to the wonderful feeling of walking into an old church and began wondering why that was the only time I felt like that, I dug a little deeper.

I never felt the holy spirit as you describe. I never felt uplifted by my faith.

 

[cc.slim]

Secular humanism..Nothing at all hard to understand or except for that matter its more of a fact and a norm for this world. So normal that this subject has been broken down to many many catagories... But notice that your beliefs can be broken down, catagorized, labeled, and "explained".
Faith in something YOU can't see requires just that faith. John 20:29 states Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. No book ever written or ever will give you sound advise, promises,advocates love and history lessons all rolled into one other than the bible. Divine inspiration? I say yes, and intrust my life on this very thing. Now as for breaking down religion oh yeh but keep in mind that word religion(I only add this because you are onry)Start with the belief in creation(God) then follow the story aka bible which leads you to Jesus(fulfilled prophesy with the numbers of one person fulfilling such things is astronomical) hence leads you to by bible words to the correct truth..Narrow is the path so you must seek the correct one and the bible is your map..I could go on forever and ever trying to change the hard hearted or give the blind sight but me is a tard with little skillz.So as foretold that skeptics abound that I am supposed to move on to the next field looking for fertile ground to sow seeds of promise..But somehow I think with a little manure and tlc something can grow.Hehehehe k so no manure needed hahahaha just TLC...People look to the church for the answer and expect results when what they need is to look to Jesus..Read the New testament a couple of times then pray that you can absorb his words.Church is fellowship not the truth only Christ is the truth.As for the holy spirit hehehehe Follow Jesus and it will come so then you need never to ask what or why again.

 

[astrod00d]

Have you ever felt the presence of God around you? I assume that you haven't since anyone who has would most definitely not be an atheist. And if you continue down the path that you are, you never will find Him. You will not sway any here to your belief if they have felt His presence. It just won't happen.

If you need proof of His existence, you will never find it. If you truly believe in Him and seek Him with an open heart, you will find Him. It's really that simple. It is something that a non-believer will never understand.

That is not the only way to find Him. There is another way that is harder. I'm sure you've seen people around the world who have all of a sudden found Christ. It is most likely because they've been 'touched'. Sometimes God has a plan for someone and He really wants it carried out so He 'touches' them and turns their lives around so that they can spread His word.

Who knows? Maybe one day you'll be 'touched'. But if I were you, I'd choose the other way just in case you never are.

 

[Dark Virtue]

If you're looking for absolute, concrete proof that there is a God, then you will never find it. If it were possible to prove that God existed, if you could know that God were real, then you would never need faith.

You want evidence? The evidence is all around you, though you choose not to accept it.

EH?

This always strikes me as funny.

In one breath you claim that concrete proof doesn't exist, and in the next you claim it does, all around us.

You can't have it both ways. There is evidence or there is not, which is it?

And, exacly, why can't you believe in God with proof?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Have you ever felt the presence of God around you? I assume that you haven't since anyone who has would most definitely not be an atheist. And if you continue down the path that you are, you never will find Him. You will not sway any here to your belief if they have felt His presence. It just won't happen.

Most atheists were Christian at one point. Your argument does not hold water.

If you need proof of His existence, you will never find it. If you truly believe in Him and seek Him with an open heart, you will find Him. It's really that simple. It is something that a non-believer will never understand.

On the contrary, we DO understand. Let me rephrase it for you so that YOU can understand: You can't prove that God exists because there is no evidence or proof to substantiate his existence. You can, however, make him real if you want him to exist bad enough. Do you not SEE the problem here?

That is not the only way to find Him. There is another way that is harder. I'm sure you've seen people around the world who have all of a sudden found Christ. It is most likely because they've been 'touched'. Sometimes God has a plan for someone and He really wants it carried out so He 'touches' them and turns their lives around so that they can spread His word.

Then I'll wait until I feel this "touch". Until then, I have no reason to believe he exists.

Who knows? Maybe one day you'll be 'touched'. But if I were you, I'd choose the other way just in case you never are.

Let's assume you are correct. You really think God will welcome me with open arms in heaven when I spent my whole life with my fingers crossed? Becoming a Christian "just in case"? If God prefers a dishonest Christian over an honest atheist, then I really don't think I want any part of the whole thing.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Secular humanism..Nothing at all hard to understand or except for that matter its more of a fact and a norm for this world. So normal that this subject has been broken down to many many catagories... But notice that your beliefs can be broken down, catagorized, labeled, and "explained".
Faith in something YOU can't see requires just that faith. John 20:29 states Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. No book ever written or ever will give you sound advise, promises,advocates love and history lessons all rolled into one other than the bible. Divine inspiration? I say yes, and intrust my life on this very thing. Now as for breaking down religion oh yeh but keep in mind that word religion(I only add this because you are onry)Start with the belief in creation(God) then follow the story aka bible which leads you to Jesus(fulfilled prophesy with the numbers of one person fulfilling such things is astronomical) hence leads you to by bible words to the correct truth..Narrow is the path so you must seek the correct one and the bible is your map..I could go on forever and ever trying to change the hard hearted or give the blind sight but me is a tard with little skillz.So as foretold that skeptics abound that I am supposed to move on to the next field looking for fertile ground to sow seeds of promise..But somehow I think with a little manure and tlc something can grow.Hehehehe k so no manure needed hahahaha just TLC...People look to the church for the answer and expect results when what they need is to look to Jesus..Read the New testament a couple of times then pray that you can absorb his words.Church is fellowship not the truth only Christ is the truth.As for the holy spirit hehehehe Follow Jesus and it will come so then you need never to ask what or why again.

Everything you have said is echoed in every religion of the world.

You say you're right, the Islamists say they're right, the Buddhists say they're right, the Hindus say they're right, etc etc.

Not only that, but within Christianity you have the Catholics saying they're right, the Protestants saying they're right, the Jehovah's Witnesses saying they're right.

Through all that, how many people can say that there is the possibility that their outlook on life holds the merest possibility that they could be wrong?

Religion has a long, bloody, sordid history of killing those that don't agree with them.