Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah to you!

D

Dark Virtue

New Member
Well, it's that time of year again.

One more year and I don't understand why Christians embrace an obviously pagan born holiday.

Below I will list a few facets/aspects of Christmas as I can and call out their origins. If you wouldn't mind, let us know which aspects you participate in.

Thanks!

Christ: No need to argue this one.

December 25th: The first of many pagan origins that owe their beginnings to the Saturnalia, a festival of feasting and revelry held in December in celebration of Saturn, the god of agriculture, and the winter solstice. The day was declared to ease Roman Pagans into Christianity and coincided with the fest of the Son of Isis, a Goddess of Nature.

Christmas Ham: A leftover (no pun intended) of the tradition of sacrificing a pig to the god Freyr during Yule.

Yule Log: Does anyone actually do this anymore? The burning of the Yule log (a specially chose log of birch, oak or holly) to hurry the coming of the sun, or warmer weather. Charred pieces of the log were kept to protect the house through the coming year. Paga in origin? You know it.

Gift Giving: Attributed to the wise men? Not sure how this works since they brought gifts to Christ and not to their friends and family. Besides, the idea of gift giving around the Saturnalia was common long before the time of Christ.

Mistletoe: Another druidic tradition. As one Norse myth goes: "Frigga is the Norse Goddess of love, marriage and fertility. Her son, Balder was slain by Loki with an arrrow made from mistletoe. When Balder was restored to life, Frigga blessed the mistletoe and gave a kiss to anyone who passed under it."

Tree Decorating: Chalk another one up to Saturnalia traditions. Druids saw evergreens as symbols of fertility and everlasting life and used the branches as decorations to the Sun God.

I saved this one for last since the practice of decorating trees is actually called out in the Bible:
Jeremiah 10:2-4
New International Version (NIV)

2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

How can you, as a Christian, validate having a Christmas tree in light of those verses?

If I missed any, feel free to add more to the discussion.
 
But then this can be said of a LOT of western traditions. At our heart we are a heathen people and the traditions of a middle eastern sect sit only lightly on our hearts.

At the end of the day, blood still sings to blood.
 
Oh don't forget the other Yule Tree. The Germanics used to decorate a tree with the entrails of their foes as an offering to the spirits of the Forest.

Where else did you think Tinsel came from?
 
We participate in:

Christ (the focal point of it all)
December 25th
Ham (sometimes...not a solid tradition but often)
Gift Giving (as a symbol of what Christ gave)
Tree decorating (many of the decorations are Christian in nature)

Some of these may have pagan related origins, but so what if they do?

What does that have to do with my family and I celebrating the birth of our Savior? We do not celebrate it with any pagan thoughts. We don't think of pagan cults or their beliefs as we celebrate Christ's birth.

1 Corinthians 8:4-8

Is a good passage that addresses this type of thing.

Our celebration is not pagan. My family and friends all know "that there is no God but one."

I'll grant that the secular side of Christmas is out of control, but not in my household.
 
That's fine, Didasko, you don't have to remember why you observe them - so long as they're observed.
 
If you see no problem with it, then the powers that be have won.

Their goal was to fuse pagan and Christian ideals together into one big pot.

Remember Eph 6:12? For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

If you don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating pagan customs and calling them "Christian", then you have indeed lost the struggle.
 
We could celebrate Christ's resurrection on the same day as Diwali and it wouldn't bother me either. Religious holidays are a lot like religious symbols: it's the meaning, not the shape, that is important. Hitler got the swastika from a German cathedral. (The cathedral got it from the early, catacomb-going Christians who used the symbol in place of a cross in order to conceal the meaning behind it.) If someone didn't know about WWII, the swastika would have a positive, rather than a negative, connotation.

Same with the pentagram. Druids and pagans use it to symbolise the balance and order of nature, and satanists use it to worship satan.
 
Eon said:
That's fine, Didasko, you don't have to remember why you observe them - so long as they're observed.
Click to expand...

I do remember why I observe them Eon. I explained it very clearly in my post. There has never been any question.

What I observe and what you describe are two very different things. It doesn't have 'pagan' meaning anymore to anyone but a few diehards like you:)

What I observe is purely Christian.
 
Dark Virtue said:
If you see no problem with it, then the powers that be have won.

Their goal was to fuse pagan and Christian ideals together into one big pot.

Remember Eph 6:12? For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

If you don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating pagan customs and calling them "Christian", then you have indeed lost the struggle.
Click to expand...

None of my 'ideals' are fused with the pagan rituals you speak of.

I don't celebrate pagan customs. I celebrate the birth of Christ.

I don't celebrate the ham...I eat it. There's nothing pagan about the way I eat ham. I ask for God's blessing on the ham and it sure tastes good afterward:)

Gift giving is not pagan. Sure pagans may give gifts too...but that doesn't make all giving pagan by any means;)

December 25th is not owned by the pagans. It does not really matter to me what day we celebrate Christmas, so I use the traditional day. I celebrate Christ's gift to us every day.

lol...you can imagine an ominous pagan meaning behind my Christmas tree if you want to. I prefer to think of it as a pretty little decorated tree:)

There is no struggle here DV. Just a family celebrating God's great gift and enjoying some good food and a pretty little tree while we are at it.
 
Christmas is starting to disturb me. I love it, it's my favorite time of the year. I also dig many of the practices that have pagan origins. However, I'm beginnign to believe one of the primary elements of Christmas (Perhaps the one looked forward to by most), unwrapping gifts under the tree, runs counter to how Christians should celebrate Christ's birthday (Which I heard most scholars actually believe took place in April).

Are Christians really supposed to be spending large amounts of money lavishing each other with gifts, most of which serve no practical purpose at all?

Troubling, troubling indeed.
 
The swastika goes a ways back further than that - it was used by the Indus Valley civilisation first, I believe. From there it even spread out to the Amerindians, the Aryan's in general too. Old, old symbol - and very benign. Until it was reversed into the Hakkekreuz.

Same with the Pentagram - Satanists reverse it.

As for DV's point - I'll answer you with a snatch of Tolkein.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring.
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

They were burned, persecuted, opressed and beaten down - but the old that was strong does not wither. And who really remembers Christ on Christmas morning? More than the tree? The Gifts? The meal with the family around one table? The celebration of the dying year at New Years Eve?

We were never gone, and we've never been closer to resurgance. I'd say that from the ashes a fire has been woken - we're still waiting for the reforged blade.
 
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I look at all that with a very light attitude for the heart is were it all begins history is exactly that and today and tommorrow are what christains are to look to. Christmas Commercialized oh yeh but the giving is of God. Nomatter the date Jesus was born no matter the tree it is still giving and when it is given from the heart wow like dis that homie G. Honor Cesear and pay his dues but keep close to heart the values instilled by our Lord. GEMS Glorify God, Evangelized the lost, Mature the saved and Share the Burden! And Slims Fav Give with the heart no matter the Day!!!!
 
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I don't celebrate it for Saturnalia (or whatever), I celebrate the birth of Christ. I don't think that in celebrating this holiday that the "powers" have won or anything. Actually, in celebrating the birth of Christ I think that I'm perfectly fine. *awaits contradictions and such*

*looks at kraniacs post and agrees*
 
You say you celebrate the birth of Christ, but your actions say otherwise. You participate in pagan rituals, end of story.

Where in the Bible did Christ say to celebrate his birth? He gave several examples of what he did want you to celebrate, but how many Christians keep the Sabbath holy? How many Christians celebrate any of the Holy Days set forth in the Bible?

What does a pagan tree or gift giving have to do with Christ's birth?

or...are you simply saying that pagan rituals are OK, as long as you follow them under the guise of Christ?
 
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IceBladePOD said:
Christmas is starting to disturb me. I love it, it's my favorite time of the year. I also dig many of the practices that have pagan origins. However, I'm beginnign to believe one of the primary elements of Christmas (Perhaps the one looked forward to by most), unwrapping gifts under the tree, runs counter to how Christians should celebrate Christ's birthday (Which I heard most scholars actually believe took place in April).

Are Christians really supposed to be spending large amounts of money lavishing each other with gifts, most of which serve no practical purpose at all?

Troubling, troubling indeed.
Click to expand...

Good point.

Why, exactly, do you feel it necessary to celebrate the birth of Christ? Is there some biblical context to this? Christ made no mention of it, nor did any of his followers. What am I missing here?
 
Dark Virtue said:
You say you celebrate the birth of Christ, but your actions say otherwise. You participate in pagan rituals, end of story.

Where in the Bible did Christ say to celebrate his birth? He gave several examples of what he did want you to celebrate, but how many Christians keep the Sabbath holy? How many Christians celebrate any of the Holy Days set forth in the Bible?

What does a pagan tree or gift giving have to do with Christ's birth?

or...are you simply saying that pagan rituals are OK, as long as you follow them under the guise of Christ?
Click to expand...

Not gonna take your bait DV:) I'll just agree to disagree with you on this. I really don't feel the need to defend my choice to celebrate the birth of the Savior.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Good point.

Why, exactly, do you feel it necessary to celebrate the birth of Christ? Is there some biblical context to this? Christ made no mention of it, nor did any of his followers. What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

Of course there's no biblical context for any of this! That's because it's a pagan holiday marked by pagan rites in the same manner that our pagan ancestors have since time immemorial.

They just slapped the word Christ on top of it.
 
Didasko said:
Not gonna take your bait DV:) I'll just agree to disagree with you on this. I really don't feel the need to defend my choice to celebrate the birth of the Savior.
Click to expand...

What bait?

Why are you afraid to discuss this topic?

How am I supposed to understand why you do what you do, if you are afraid to discuss it?
 
Dark Virtue said:
You say you celebrate the birth of Christ, but your actions say otherwise. You participate in pagan rituals, end of story.

Where in the Bible did Christ say to celebrate his birth? He gave several examples of what he did want you to celebrate, but how many Christians keep the Sabbath holy? How many Christians celebrate any of the Holy Days set forth in the Bible?

What does a pagan tree or gift giving have to do with Christ's birth?

or...are you simply saying that pagan rituals are OK, as long as you follow them under the guise of Christ?
Click to expand...

As a poster once said... "I'm not gonna take your bait dv":)

Anywho... where in the Bible did Christ say not to celebrate his birth? And about the "my actions say otherwise," I'm sorry if I give/recieve gifts and put up Christmas lights, celebrate Christ's birth, etc... obviously I'm a pagan. :eek: :rolleyes:

And about the rituals being pagan: I'm missing something (i.e. my history lessons) but, if you had the patience for a person who doesn't research that kind of thing, where in history did the pagans set up a tree? Thank you.
 
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Read Tacitus campaigns in Germania. The Christmas tree is an old tradition imported to Britain by Prince Albert in victorian times, I think, from his native Germany.

In Germany, as Tacitus noted, the custom has been around for a LONG time.

I mean, you guys can say WHY you think you're doing it as much as you like, but I don't buy the theory that anything done in the name of God is pleasing to him. I mean, seriously, you try building a wicker man and see what kind of afterlife THAT buys you.
 
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