Religious Healers, lame.

[Armandus]

Not responding to anyone in particular, but I believe God can heal when he wants to, even if it IS through a pastor or priest or what not. Satan isn't the only one who can grant earthly power when he wants. God will work through those that are pure of heart and holy in His eyes, granting them power through Him. Just a possibility !

 

[Dark Virtue]

Then I would love to hear your thoughts on this website:

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

 

[ChickenSoup]

DV, that site saw things through a person's eyes and logic. If God doesn't heal someone it is for a reason. His ways are not the ways of our own, and that site seems to disregard that and say "ha look God is fake this is why nyah nyah, oooo look at me I am insulting God why won't He do anything? Mc0wn3d!" If God does/doesn't do anything it's for a reason.

 

[Dark Virtue]

That site has many different levels.

I'll challenge you with the easiest one, all you have to do is answer one question: Why doesn't God heal amputees?

You hear stories all the time about God curing cancer or whatever, but how many stories have you heard about God healing an amputee? What about God healing the cleft pallette of a baby girl?

So if the rest of the site bugs you, just answer that one, simple question. If God heals infirmaties you can't see, why doesn't he heal infirmaties that you CAN see?

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

That site has many different levels.

I'll challenge you with the easiest one, all you have to do is answer one question: Why doesn't God heal amputees?

You hear stories all the time about God curing cancer or whatever, but how many stories have you heard about God healing an amputee? What about God healing the cleft pallette of a baby girl?

I'll handle this one. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA. All kidding aside.

One is this, who am I to question why god does or does not heal? I have seen Amputees arms get reattached. Did it happen instantly like say, They had no leg and now they have one? No. Though the simple fact that The Arm, leg toe, thumb or whatever was cut off, healed so well, that besides a small scar, you can't even tell that the person had almost lost their arm.

I am a living testement to that. I almost lost my Left thumb after nearly cutting it off. The Doctor who sewed it back on said that he doubted if 1.) It would heal to the point I could ever move my thumb again. 2.) That it may actually contract gangrene and have to be re-cut off. 3.) Even if I got mobility back, I would never have feeling.
Well needless to say, I have my thumb, It has full range of motion and I can feel with it.

Why does God Not heal Amputies? Well, For one thing, God is a God of Order. He created us in such a way thatwe heal ourselves of most things. however, We are not like Starfish, or Gecko's who can grow back lost limbs. Once our limb is gone, it is gone. It would not be in Order if God simply made a amputee's leg re-appear after it had been gone for years or even days. I am not saying that God cannot do it.

Why does God heal some and not others? I have no idea. Look in the Bible, Jesus did not heal everyone who came to Him. Look at John 5. Jesus Was heading to Jeruselem for a feast and walked by the pool of Bethesda, He only healed one man according to John. Why did he not heal them all? He has the power?

So if the rest of the site bugs you, just answer that one, simple question. If God heals infirmaties you can't see, why doesn't he heal infirmaties that you CAN see?

Well He has healed me. Both of things you can not see, and of things you can see. If ever we meet outside of Cyber world. I will show you where I was healed. My thumb, Face, Knee, Leg, Ankle, All these places I have been healed. In fact, I have a set of Xray's floating around the medical community somewhere. They are of a broken ankle where the bone broke through the skin, Today, you cant even tell it was ever broken. I have no scar, I have no calcium deposit from it. Nothing.

I really do not have a 100% answer to your question Dark Virtue. Only my opinions on it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Uh...God didn't heal you, the DOCTOR did.

Did you take your thumb and rush to your church to pray for God to heal it? Of course not, you did the SENSIBLE thing and went to the doctor, where his human skill healed you, NOT GOD.

To sum up what you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that God can heal anyone he wants, and he does so, according to you, cancers and whatnot, but God doesn't heal amputees or physical deformities...not because he can't, but because he won't. Is this correct? If that's the case, then that website's question is validated.

And PLEASE reduce the size of your sig! You're a mod, set a good example.

 

[Eon]

I'm glad you heal well, but you know that nothing you're saying here suggests something impossible happening.

Let me set it out so that it's nice and clear.

Show me an instance of faith healing effecting a change in a human being which is obvious, external and not capable of being effected in any other way. Examples include:

1. Reattachment of missing limbs.
2. Total and cosmetic healing of extensive burns scarring.
3. Any other condition that cannot be explained by natural healing or surgery.

 

[Goose62]

The prophets in Revelation that will "die" outside of the temple, will come back to life 3 days later - that will more than likely be on TV, but a lot of people will think like you and not think it's real.

 

[Shyfroggy]

my thoughts...

Uh...God didn't heal you, the DOCTOR did.

Ever stop to think that perhaps God gave that doctor the gift to fix others? That the doctor is living out God's will for his life? God created the doctor who was there to heal him when he needed it - sounds to me like God working through the doctor....(but that is just my opinion)


Show me an instance of faith healing effecting a change in a human being which is obvious, external and not capable of being effected in any other way.

You asked for an example, I'll provide the one that I have been fortunate enough to experience....When I was 12 years old I started having knee pain, had surgery, still didn't fix the problem...when I was 13 I had ankle surgery, exploritory because they couldn't figure out why I was in so much pain....still that didn't fix the problem....I went to a number of specialists, orthopeadic doctors, you name it - they tried it. They told me that I would have to live with my pain - there were days I woke up when I couldn't even walk - my knee and ankle were literally swollen so bad that I couldn't walk and I would be sick to my stomach because it was hurting so bad (but yet no doctor could tell me what was wrong)....I was physically fit at the time so I know that wasn't the cause of it....I was left with 'you are going to have to live with this.' At 13 years old, that didn't sound very good to me. I would say it was then that I truly embraced my spirituality...it was in my pain that my relationship with God grew...I began praying for one, and for two I would tell myself, "my foot/knee doesn't hurt for the lord's at work." Today that pain/swelling that I was supposedly going to have to live with according to the doctors is gone...

The key idea here, IN MY OPINION is that it's all about God's timing...He does heal, He does answer prayers, He does provide wisdom;in HIS time, NOT ours. We can pray day in and day out but that doesn't mean that he will heal us in __ number of days....it's all about His timing.

 

[Eon]

Again, I'm really glad that your joint condition cleared up.

But, isn't that internal and capable of having occurred due to natural healing?

 

[Shyfroggy]

welll let me mention that that problem was ongoing from about 8 years old - 14 years old....you think it takes six years for 'natural healing' to take place? If the body can heal natrually, wouldn't it have happened a lot sooner?...or wouldn't it have happened with physical therapy? surgeries?

The feelings I got, were that that pain was placed in my life to teach me something - and only once I learned my lesson, was the pain lessened, and eventually gone. What I'm saying here is (this may sound crazy) that I think that pain was placed in my life so that I would turn to God, he knew I was being led astray, especially after entering my teens, entering a lust filled relationship that wasn't good, among many other things that were pushing me away from the Lord, I can only imagine what HE thought....I think that the only way He saw He could get through to me at that time in my life was to inflict a pain, allow me to see that nobody could fix me, allow me to wallow, and then when I turned to Him, when my relationship with Him got better, as it got stronger, the pain was less and less....So I think that being placed in my life, and no healing taking place, etc. etc. was His way of healing me, does that make sense?

Now you may say that that is internal healing - and perhaps in a sense you are right - it was the internal healing of my spirit when I allowed the Lord to take complete control over my life...only then was my spirit refreshed and my pain became less.

Again, I say it's God's timing, not ours, He is incredible....let Him take hold of your life, and shake you up a bit, see what the outcome might be....for one could be healed of a condition that every other doctor said I'd have to live with for the rest of my life...

 

[Dark Virtue]

The prophets in Revelation that will "die" outside of the temple, will come back to life 3 days later - that will more than likely be on TV, but a lot of people will think like you and not think it's real.

What will make YOU think it's real?

I'm sure you don't believe everything you hear on tv, do you?

You don't put stock into seeing Jesus in a tortilla, right?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ever stop to think that perhaps God gave that doctor the gift to fix others? That the doctor is living out God's will for his life? God created the doctor who was there to heal him when he needed it - sounds to me like God working through the doctor....(but that is just my opinion)

You're joking, right?

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

Why doesn't God just use these puppet doctors to perform miracles? These supposed miracles aren't attributed to the doctors, but to God, right?

PFFT!

Show me an instance of faith healing effecting a change in a human being which is obvious, external and not capable of being effected in any other way.

You asked for an example, I'll provide the one that I have been fortunate enough to experience....When I was 12 years old I started having knee pain, had surgery, still didn't fix the problem...when I was 13 I had ankle surgery, exploritory because they couldn't figure out why I was in so much pain....still that didn't fix the problem....I went to a number of specialists, orthopeadic doctors, you name it - they tried it. They told me that I would have to live with my pain - there were days I woke up when I couldn't even walk - my knee and ankle were literally swollen so bad that I couldn't walk and I would be sick to my stomach because it was hurting so bad (but yet no doctor could tell me what was wrong)....I was physically fit at the time so I know that wasn't the cause of it....I was left with 'you are going to have to live with this.' At 13 years old, that didn't sound very good to me. I would say it was then that I truly embraced my spirituality...it was in my pain that my relationship with God grew...I began praying for one, and for two I would tell myself, "my foot/knee doesn't hurt for the lord's at work." Today that pain/swelling that I was supposedly going to have to live with according to the doctors is gone...

I don't think that qualifies as external.

The key idea here, IN MY OPINION is that it's all about God's timing...He does heal, He does answer prayers, He does provide wisdom;in HIS time, NOT ours. We can pray day in and day out but that doesn't mean that he will heal us in __ number of days....it's all about His timing.

[/quote]

All I'm asking for is ONE verifiable story of a physical miracle...a limb growing back, a cleft pallette being restored, etc.

There are a myriad of miracle stories out there about God curing cancer, curing addictions, etc, what about the ones that leave PHYSICAL proof?

 

[Dark Virtue]

welll let me mention that that problem was ongoing from about 8 years old - 14 years old....you think it takes six years for 'natural healing' to take place? If the body can heal natrually, wouldn't it have happened a lot sooner?...or wouldn't it have happened with physical therapy? surgeries?

Nature works in mysterious ways

Again, I say it's God's timing, not ours, He is incredible....let Him take hold of your life, and shake you up a bit, see what the outcome might be....for one could be healed of a condition that every other doctor said I'd have to live with for the rest of my life...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt...and pretty much, nothing else.

Doctors aren't perfect you know, neither is science, mistakes happen, so do misdiagnoses.

I don't want to make light of what you went through, but there is a very important question here. If you believe God did this for you, healed you, why? What was so special about you that he healed something like an injured knee...something that you could have lived with easily, and not something like prevent a child from dying of AIDS? Or a child dying of starvation? Or a child with a horrible physical disfigurement?

Because if I were to look at all these people that have received miracles, I can find no rhyme or reason. It looks...random. Which leads one to believe that it happened by chance, as things do in nature without divine intervention.

 

[Shyfroggy]

cont.

You're joking, right?
That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.
Why doesn't God just use these puppet doctors to perform miracles? These supposed miracles aren't attributed to the doctors, but to God, right?
All I'm asking for is ONE verifiable story of a physical miracle...a limb growing back, a cleft pallette being restored, etc.
There are a myriad of miracle stories out there about God curing cancer, curing addictions, etc, what about the ones that leave PHYSICAL proof?

I'm sorry that that is 'the silliest thing you ever heard' - perhaps most of these 'round about arguements' are due in part to people being quick to put others down and not so quick to just listen to what people are saying.

I believe that God gives people gifts, and that when they use those gifts - that is like God working through them, because He is the one who gave them that ability....sorry if you don't see it that way....

Proverbs 3.27 "Never walk away from someone who deserves help; your hand is God's hand for that person." (The Message)

Why do you continue to seek a 'physical' proof? The stories and experiences that have been shared are individual ways in which we all know that the Lord has been a major factor in healing....it kind of goes to that idea 'believe without seeing or seeing is believing?'...I know what I have experienced, but I don't have any "physical proof"----you can take my experience for what it is....

Jesus works in mysterious ways

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt...and pretty much, nothing else.

Doctors aren't perfect you know, neither is science, mistakes happen, so do misdiagnoses.

I don't want to make light of what you went through, but there is a very important question here. If you believe God did this for you, healed you, why? What was so special about you that he healed something like an injured knee...something that you could have lived with easily, and not something like prevent a child from dying of AIDS? Or a child dying of starvation? Or a child with a horrible physical disfigurement?

Because if I were to look at all these people that have received miracles, I can find no rhyme or reason. It looks...random. Which leads one to believe that it happened by chance, as things do in nature without divine intervention.?

Doctors aren't perfect, you're right, I'll agree with you there....but then again neither are we.

As for your important question, "If you believe God did this for you, healed you, why?" and my answer, because I had a true heart and seeked Him, like I said I believe He did that - the pain, the healing - to cause me to turn to Him. What was so special about me? That I trusted in Him, that I turned to Him, that I accepted Jesus Christ at my Lord and Savior, that I was living for Him. It wasn't necesarily something easy for me to live with...while I know there are people who have it worse, facing the idea of having days where I wouldn't be able to walk, well that doesn't give one much hope.

children who are differently abled....children with physical limitations...children dieing because of the choices their parents have made, physically, mentally, spiritually.....you're right - those are aweful situations, all I can say is "God's timing, not ours." I'll keep saying that, I can't really explain it anymore than I have at the present moment...."God's timing, that's why." I work with children everyday who don't have their needs met, trust me I've asked those same questions, but what I do for them is pray for them and then I have to trust in the Lord, and his timing.

You might not be able to see rhyme or reason, because it's my rhyme/my reason...just as everybody has his own rhyme and reason....each has there own rhyme or reason as you say, to why things happened the way they did, each giving credit where credit is due - to our Lord and Savior...It looks random to you because you are not stopping to look at how they all relate....

I've voiced my opinion, I think it is hard to see how God can heal when you don't believe in Him....and why should He have to prove anything to earn your belief, when it was His Son who died for our Sins....?

I've said it before I'll say it again, and again, "It's God's timing, not ours."

 

[Dark Virtue]

"God's timing, not ours" is simply a cop out.

A more honest answer would be, "I really have no idea why".

You say that you were healed because you sought him and had a true heart. What about others that did the same thing and didn't have their prayers answered?

I don't understand why you are so incredulous when I ask for proof. Why is that so hard to understand? As a rational human being, I need proof to believe in the existence of something. If God wants me to believe in him, why haven't I found that which I sought?

Don't accuse me of putting you down after saying something outlandish. The simple answer is that a human being is responsible for healing. If God wanted to do the healing he wouldn't need an imperfect vessel to perform that miracle, now would he? I'll even go so far as to grant you that maybe God DOES need some sort of human conduit. Shouldn't the simple laying on of hands suffice? It was enough for the stories in the bible, wasn't it?

As for Proverbs 3:27, don't you think you're taking that WAY out of context?

The KJV says, "Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it."

Or, in the NIV, "Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act."

You are attributing something to that verse that isn't there. If anything it only serves to underline MY point, which is the power is in OUR hands, not God's.

 

[Shyfroggy]

"God's timing, not ours" is simply a cop out.

A more honest answer would be, "I really have no idea why".

You say that you were healed because you sought him and had a true heart. What about others that did the same thing and didn't have their prayers answered?

I don't understand why you are so incredulous when I ask for proof. Why is that so hard to understand? As a rational human being, I need proof to believe in the existence of something. If God wants me to believe in him, why haven't I found that which I sought?

Don't accuse me of putting you down after saying something outlandish. The simple answer is that a human being is responsible for healing. If God wanted to do the healing he wouldn't need an imperfect vessel to perform that miracle, now would he? I'll even go so far as to grant you that maybe God DOES need some sort of human conduit. Shouldn't the simple laying on of hands suffice? It was enough for the stories in the bible, wasn't it?

As for Proverbs 3:27, don't you think you're taking that WAY out of context?

The KJV says, "Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it."

Or, in the NIV, "Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act."

You are attributing something to that verse that isn't there. If anything it only serves to underline MY point, which is the power is in OUR hands, not God's.

God's timing not ours, is a lesson learned in time to those who believe, it is not a cop out - especially not a cop out just because you say it is....

others who sought him and didn't have there prayers answered....does that mean they didn't have any change in their direction, when you say there prayers weren't answered do you mean that they didn't get the answer they wanted or they didn't get an answer in __ amount of time...since none of us can say what God's answer for somebody elses life would be, who are we to say that they didn't get an answer? just because they didn't get an answer they liked or wanted, doesn't mean they didn't get an answer

you need proof, that is what it always comes down to....how do you know the proof isn't before your very eyes? how do you know that God isn't giving you signs everyday that you just fail to see because you are so caught up on searching and searching, do you ever just stop to see what is?

God's hand, God's healing, God's Gifts. Since I view my life as a gift from God, I view the abilities and talents I have as a gift from God as well...therefore when I work and see those gifts in action, I know it is God's Will, I know it is where He wants me. I know it is Him working through me....and the last time I checked the bible was up to interpretation, so I can read what I wish to read in a given verse....I interpret it different than you do, but that doesn't make what I am saying or how I feel any less important....

I've said it before I'll say it again, and again, "It's God's timing, not ours."

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

All I'm asking for is ONE verifiable story of a physical miracle...a limb growing back, a cleft pallette being restored, etc.

There are a myriad of miracle stories out there about God curing cancer, curing addictions, etc, what about the ones that leave PHYSICAL proof?

Ok. Allow me to repeat myself.

In fact, I have a set of Xray's floating around the medical community somewhere. They are of a broken ankle where the bone broke through the skin, Today, you cant even tell it was ever broken. I have no scar, I have no calcium deposit from it. Nothing.

Ok. Allow me to spell it out even further.....

I broke my ankle. No biggie you would think. Cast it, stay off it and it would heal on its own. HOWEVER, When I broke my ankle, My Right Ankle, The bone broke through the skin, as in, blood everywhere, see the white bone inside, you might die from it, broke through the skin.
I was 2 1/2 hours away from the nearest hospital. (My Mom made it there in less than an hour.....)
I was getting preped for surgery after arriving at the hospital when my Dad and my Pastor showed up. The first thing they did was pray over me. The next thing I know, The skin is perfect, the bone is healed.
The doctor looked at the xray that they took of my healed ankle and told me it was a miracle. I should have had surgery to repair my ankle. (it has broken in 3 places) To this day there is no calcium deposit or scar on on my ankle showing where the bone broke through the skin. Is that enough proof for you?

 

[Goose62]

What will make YOU think it's real?

I'm sure you don't believe everything you hear on tv, do you?

No, I don't believe EVERYTHING on TV ... but I do believe in some things. And I would think it's real because the Bible prophesied it.

If God wants me to believe in him, why haven't I found that which I sought?

You can't just stand around saying to yourself "OK .... I'm waiting .... I'm trying to find you God ... make me believe .... where are you???" If what you seek is God, then YOU need to make a step towards Him. His hand is already outstretched towards you, all you need to do is reach towards Him to find Him. And if you don't, and all you seek is proof of God ... you'll eventually find it, whether it's too late or not.

 

[Eon]

Okay, THAT I'll give you as a miracle.

Is there proof - like did a Doctor examine you and find a compound fracture and then a doctor examine you and find no trace of the injury.

Did you walk out of there completely healed?