Religious Healers, lame.

[Dark Virtue]

God's timing not ours, is a lesson learned in time to those who believe, it is not a cop out - especially not a cop out just because you say it is....

Did you ever watch Reading Rainbow? Levar Burton always ended it the same way. He'd say, "But don't take MY word for it". I hope you know, I'm sure you do in fact, that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

others who sought him and didn't have there prayers answered....does that mean they didn't have any change in their direction, when you say there prayers weren't answered do you mean that they didn't get the answer they wanted or they didn't get an answer in __ amount of time...since none of us can say what God's answer for somebody elses life would be, who are we to say that they didn't get an answer? just because they didn't get an answer they liked or wanted, doesn't mean they didn't get an answer

Hmm, I think you're dancing around the issue. You're saying God answers ALL prayers in three ways: yes, no, or maybe/not right now.

EH? Again, you just described chaos, randomness. There is no apparent rhyme or reason to his answers, so why not just attribute these things to chance? Why must you attribute things to God? Do you even believe in random chance? Maybe I should have started there.

you need proof, that is what it always comes down to....how do you know the proof isn't before your very eyes? how do you know that God isn't giving you signs everyday that you just fail to see because you are so caught up on searching and searching, do you ever just stop to see what is?

You're not being fair. YOU needed proof too didn't you? What was it that made you believe? Look at all the Christians you know...did they believe based off of the same proof?

I simply need a different kind of proof.

The difference between you and I is that I am no longer searching. I don't care anymore...I don't NEED religion. There was a time when I did, but that time is long past. There was a time when I fervently prayed for answers, but received nothing. Now let me ask you this...if God is omniscient, wouldn't he know just what I would need to flip my switch? Wouldn't he know just how long I could beg before I crossed the point of no return?

BESIDES, if you believe in Predestination, aren't there some who simply won't be called or chosen no matter how much you seek?

God's hand, God's healing, God's Gifts. Since I view my life as a gift from God, I view the abilities and talents I have as a gift from God as well...therefore when I work and see those gifts in action, I know it is God's Will, I know it is where He wants me. I know it is Him working through me....and the last time I checked the bible was up to interpretation, so I can read what I wish to read in a given verse....I interpret it different than you do, but that doesn't make what I am saying or how I feel any less important....

AHA, and therein lies the problem. You are not objective, you are subjective. Now, if you require ME to be objective, shouldn't you be willing to do the same?

I've said it before I'll say it again, and again, "It's God's timing, not ours."

Just say "I DON'T KNOW", how is that any different than your answer?

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about all kinds of things.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument!

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me."

"Exactly!," affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

This joke kind of sums it up for me...

 

[Shyfroggy]

more....

Did you ever watch Reading Rainbow? Levar Burton always ended it the same way. He'd say, "But don't take MY word for it". I hope you know, I'm sure you do in fact, that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

yes I did watch Reading Rainbow, and ending something by saying "But don't take MY word for it," and ending something by saying "It's God's timing, not ours," doesn't even compare...Yeah, you're right you're not the only one that feels that way but remember also that there are those of us here who DO feel that way.

Hmm, I think you're dancing around the issue. You're saying God answers ALL prayers in three ways: yes, no, or maybe/not right now.

Never did I say that God answers prayers in three ways, because I know for a fact there is a endless amount of ways that God answers prayers....

EH? Again, you just described chaos, randomness. There is no apparent rhyme or reason to his answers, so why not just attribute these things to chance? Why must you attribute things to God? Do you even believe in random chance? Maybe I should have started there.

Why must I attribute things to God? Hmm let me think, because He is my Lord and Savior, He is the One who pulls me up, His Word inspires me. He has greatly influenced my life....I attribute things to God because I believe in God....Random chance, as in things happening because of coincendence? favorable circumstances for no apparent reason? I guess I would have to say no, I do believe that when things happen they happen because it's Gods will....


You're not being fair. YOU needed proof too didn't you? What was it that made you believe? Look at all the Christians you know...did they believe based off of the same proof?

Did I need proof? I can't really answer that question. My belief in God has always been there, though my parents didn't take me to church every Sunday, talk of God was in our home. I think it would be a stretch to say that I needed proof to believe in God...because I already believed in him, I was simply being led astray and He brought me back to that straight and narrow path....What was it that made me believe? I always believed in God, just didn't always know how He influenced my life. The example I gave you about the situation in my life and how I feel that the Lord healed me, well that experience, that trial in my life made my relationship with the Lord STRONGER....I didn't say that was the proof I needed to believe, I'm saying it made my relationship with the Lord stronger.

I simply need a different kind of proof.

The good thing is that you are free to search for your 'proof' however you choose....I have a question, you say you need a different kind of proof - does that mean that what we have shared as proof over these past few pages is proof to you, and you are just seeking a different kind of proof? or do you think everything those of us have brought up is not proof, simply because it isn't the kind you are trying to find?

The difference between you and I is that I am no longer searching. I don't care anymore...I don't NEED religion. There was a time when I did, but that time is long past. There was a time when I fervently prayed for answers, but received nothing. Now let me ask you this...if God is omniscient, wouldn't he know just what I would need to flip my switch? Wouldn't he know just how long I could beg before I crossed the point of no return?

There are many differences between you and I. I am not searching for the Lord, He is already with me...I do search His words, and continue to grow daily. I think everybody needs God, I don't think there is a time when somebody doesn't need Him. (But remember of course that you are talking to a Christian) I'm also going to say that I think there is a difference between praying for answers and praying that God helps you. And as far as 'begging' - If you are begging for answers, I don't see the Lord just handing them to you - usually there is some lesson learned before He gives you the Wisdom...and if you only view an answered prayer as an answer that He gave you that you wanted, well it might take some time for that to happen - He answers prayers - but he doesn't always just give you the answer you want.

BESIDES, if you believe in Predestination, aren't there some who simply won't be called or chosen no matter how much you seek?

When did I say that I believe in predestination....I believe you have to seek salvation and be saved and live a good life...I think that whoever seeks the Lord and WANTS to be saved and lives according to His word, will be saved. I might be off there but in my own heart I think that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and live according to His word, that that is all that matters. I think that ANYBODY/EVERYBODY is capable of doing that, now wether they want to or not is a different story.

AHA, and therein lies the problem. You are not objective, you are subjective. Now, if you require ME to be objective, shouldn't you be willing to do the same?

I looked these words up, and let me put some stuff out here to make sure we are using a similar definition...subjective-or subjectivism - a doctrine that individual feeling or apprehension is the ultimate criterion of the good and the right. peculiar to a particular individual - personal. modified or affected by personal views, experience or background. objective- objectivism - something towards which effort is directed. any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience - realism.

Now using those definitions, which I found in Langenscheidt's New College Merriam-Webster English Dictionary, you are telling me that I don't value objective phenomnea over individual(subjective) experience. Now if you are saying that my experiences with the Lord are subjective, I can understand why you would see me being a subjective person - but here's the thing - being objective means(from what I've understood)believing in theories/whatever that would essentially go against the Lord....(like I said this is all simply my understanding of it- however, I am open to interpretation)


Just say "I DON'T KNOW", how is that any different than your answer?
How is it any different? Because I DO KNOW, it's God's timing, not ours. I do know that our God is an awesome God.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and again - "It's God's timing, not ours."

 

[Dark Virtue]

Did you ever watch Reading Rainbow? Levar Burton always ended it the same way. He'd say, "But don't take MY word for it". I hope you know, I'm sure you do in fact, that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

yes I did watch Reading Rainbow, and ending something by saying "But don't take MY word for it," and ending something by saying "It's God's timing, not ours," doesn't even compare...Yeah, you're right you're not the only one that feels that way but remember also that there are those of us here who DO feel that way.

The similarity is that there must be some sort of proof. Saying it's God's timing is akin to saying, "just trust me".

Hmm, I think you're dancing around the issue. You're saying God answers ALL prayers in three ways: yes, no, or maybe/not right now.

Never did I say that God answers prayers in three ways, because I know for a fact there is a endless amount of ways that God answers prayers....

Dancing again

There are three BASIC answers. Yes, no, maybe.

EH? Again, you just described chaos, randomness. There is no apparent rhyme or reason to his answers, so why not just attribute these things to chance? Why must you attribute things to God? Do you even believe in random chance? Maybe I should have started there.

Why must I attribute things to God? Hmm let me think, because He is my Lord and Savior, He is the One who pulls me up, His Word inspires me. He has greatly influenced my life....I attribute things to God because I believe in God....Random chance, as in things happening because of coincendence? favorable circumstances for no apparent reason? I guess I would have to say no, I do believe that when things happen they happen because it's Gods will....

I see, so when you play a board game, God actually controls the roll of the die? Because if he didn't, that would mean something happens by random chance.

Now I know why I lose at Monopoly!

You're not being fair. YOU needed proof too didn't you? What was it that made you believe? Look at all the Christians you know...did they believe based off of the same proof?

Did I need proof? I can't really answer that question. My belief in God has always been there, though my parents didn't take me to church every Sunday, talk of God was in our home. I think it would be a stretch to say that I needed proof to believe in God...because I already believed in him, I was simply being led astray and He brought me back to that straight and narrow path....What was it that made me believe? I always believed in God, just didn't always know how He influenced my life. The example I gave you about the situation in my life and how I feel that the Lord healed me, well that experience, that trial in my life made my relationship with the Lord STRONGER....I didn't say that was the proof I needed to believe, I'm saying it made my relationship with the Lord stronger.

I don't think you're helping your cause much. You are saying that you are a Christian because of geography. If you had grown up in the Middle East, you would be Islamic. If you had grown up in India, you'd be Hindu.

Your belief was ingrained into you, taught to you by your parents.

I simply need a different kind of proof.

The good thing is that you are free to search for your 'proof' however you choose....I have a question, you say you need a different kind of proof - does that mean that what we have shared as proof over these past few pages is proof to you, and you are just seeking a different kind of proof? or do you think everything those of us have brought up is not proof, simply because it isn't the kind you are trying to find?

It is not proof when judged by the scientific method. It is, instead, anecdotal evidence. That, however, is beside the point. When I said I needed a different kind of proof I meant that all of us require some level of proof to justify our belief. Your reason for believing wouldn't necessarily work for someone else. The proof is as individual as each of us are.

The difference between you and I is that I am no longer searching. I don't care anymore...I don't NEED religion. There was a time when I did, but that time is long past. There was a time when I fervently prayed for answers, but received nothing. Now let me ask you this...if God is omniscient, wouldn't he know just what I would need to flip my switch? Wouldn't he know just how long I could beg before I crossed the point of no return?

There are many differences between you and I. I am not searching for the Lord, He is already with me...I do search His words, and continue to grow daily. I think everybody needs God, I don't think there is a time when somebody doesn't need Him. (But remember of course that you are talking to a Christian) I'm also going to say that I think there is a difference between praying for answers and praying that God helps you. And as far as 'begging' - If you are begging for answers, I don't see the Lord just handing them to you - usually there is some lesson learned before He gives you the Wisdom...and if you only view an answered prayer as an answer that He gave you that you wanted, well it might take some time for that to happen - He answers prayers - but he doesn't always just give you the answer you want.

You are reading too much into what I've posted. I've already laid out my history with Christianity...several times, and really have no desire to do so again in detail. Suffice it to say that I wasn't a pouting child demanding something of God. I studied, I prayed, I was honest and heartfelt, I studied and worked. And yet, I found nothing.

Again, the main difference here is that you are not only subjective, you have no wish to view this topic in an objective manner. Yet, you are demanding that of me. Do you think that's fair?

BESIDES, if you believe in Predestination, aren't there some who simply won't be called or chosen no matter how much you seek?

When did I say that I believe in predestination....I believe you have to seek salvation and be saved and live a good life...I think that whoever seeks the Lord and WANTS to be saved and lives according to His word, will be saved. I might be off there but in my own heart I think that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and live according to His word, that that is all that matters. I think that ANYBODY/EVERYBODY is capable of doing that, now wether they want to or not is a different story.

Sorry, the YOU wasn't directed solely at you. The problem in discussing Christianity is that Christians have widely different interpretations of the religion. Some believe this, some believe that.

Listen, I WANTED to be saved, that is why I sought God. I lived according to his word. And yet, here I am.

In the time I've spent studying this issue, I believe WANT and DESIRE play a huge role. If you want and desire something bad enough, you will believe that it is true, even if it's NOT true.

AHA, and therein lies the problem. You are not objective, you are subjective. Now, if you require ME to be objective, shouldn't you be willing to do the same?

I looked these words up, and let me put some stuff out here to make sure we are using a similar definition...subjective-or subjectivism - a doctrine that individual feeling or apprehension is the ultimate criterion of the good and the right. peculiar to a particular individual - personal. modified or affected by personal views, experience or background. objective- objectivism - something towards which effort is directed. any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience - realism.

Now using those definitions, which I found in Langenscheidt's New College Merriam-Webster English Dictionary, you are telling me that I don't value objective phenomnea over individual(subjective) experience. Now if you are saying that my experiences with the Lord are subjective, I can understand why you would see me being a subjective person - but here's the thing - being objective means(from what I've understood)believing in theories/whatever that would essentially go against the Lord....(like I said this is all simply my understanding of it- however, I am open to interpretation)

First of all, I must again point out that the mere thought of merely pondering anything against your religion has you running scared, you want nothing to do with it. You refuse to look at your beliefs critically, yet you want nonChristians to do that. That is not an honest approach.

As for the definitions, I use Merriam Webster:

Objective: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Viewing everything as a Christian distorts your outlook and makes you prejudice to anything you percieve as contrary.

Subjective: characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind

If you only view the world through rose colored glasses, your perception of the world will be bias and that is the problem that you have when you only look at your religion in a non-critical way.

1 Thess. 5:21 Prove all things: hold fast that which is good.

PROVE them, don't accept them without question. You cannot prove something in an honest fashion, if you do so only subjectively.

Just say "I DON'T KNOW", how is that any different than your answer?
How is it any different? Because I DO KNOW, it's God's timing, not ours. I do know that our God is an awesome God.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and again - "It's God's timing, not ours."

Is it hard for you to say because there might be, somewhere, an iota of doubt? Is it fear that causes you to hide behind such a thick wall?

 

[Shyfroggy]

more.........

The similarity is that there must be some sort of proof. Saying it's God's timing is akin to saying, "just trust me".

I truly am beginning to feel like I am repeating myself....me saying that it's God's timing, not ours is simply a lesson that I have learned...but you can't understand....

Dancing again
There are three BASIC answers. Yes, no, maybe.

YOU think that there are only three basic answers, not me. I know there are more than just a yes a no and a maybe to the prayers that He answers.

I see, so when you play a board game, God actually controls the roll of the die? Because if he didn't, that would mean something happens by random chance.

Now I know why I lose at Monopoly!

For one who talks about reading too much into words....well since I live for the Lord, your answer is yes...God does control the roll of the die, because I have allowed Him totally and complete reign in my life.

I don't think you're helping your cause much. You are saying that you are a Christian because of geography. If you had grown up in the Middle East, you would be Islamic. If you had grown up in India, you'd be Hindu.

Your belief was ingrained into you, taught to you by your parents.

I never said I was Christian because of geography, I said I have always believed in God. I am glad that my parents taught me in the way of the Lord...I am glad that that faith was ingrained me - but even, if you say that my belief was ingrained in me and taught to me by my parents, well it was up to me to continue that or not....just because you are raised some way doesn't mean that you merely accept those ways as an adult. I don't live with them, I am free to choose whatever belief I want...They taught me, they taught me well, but it was me who decided I wanted to continue on that path...

"Point the child in the right direction, when they are old they won't be lost."

It is not proof when judged by the scientific method. It is, instead, anecdotal evidence. That, however, is beside the point. When I said I needed a different kind of proof I meant that all of us require some level of proof to justify our belief. Your reason for believing wouldn't necessarily work for someone else. The proof is as individual as each of us are.

BINGO - the proof is as individual as each of us are....my proof may not necessarily work for somebody else.....BUT it works for me. So it may not work for you - don't knock it because it works for somebody else....

Again, the main difference here is that you are not only subjective, you have no wish to view this topic in an objective manner. Yet, you are demanding that of me. Do you think that's fair?

The point here is that I believe in God, that He has worked in my life, and He has worked in your life too - even though you may not see it yet....When it comes to believing in theories that are the tools of the devil - no I won't be objective about that...

Listen, I WANTED to be saved, that is why I sought God. I lived according to his word. And yet, here I am.

Here you are seeking Him....in an indirect way (posting on religious discussions in the Christian Gamers Alliance forums - while I know that you don't have to be a member of CGA to post here, none the less you are posting and conversing with Christians) Ever thought that maybe this is a sign from God? Ever thought this is where He led you?

In the time I've spent studying this issue, I believe WANT and DESIRE play a huge role. If you want and desire something bad enough, you will believe that it is true, even if it's NOT true.

With regards to the Lord, I don't think it matters how much you WANT or DESIRE Him, for even the smallest amount grows....I think it's about having a true heart, a true spirit, it's about more than WANTING to believe, WANTING to be SAVED, I think it's about the true heart and true spirit as well.

First of all, I must again point out that the mere thought of merely pondering anything against your religion has you running scared, you want nothing to do with it. You refuse to look at your beliefs critically, yet you want nonChristians to do that. That is not an honest approach.

The thought of pondering my beliefs does not have me running scared, it has me praying for you. It's not about not wanting to have anything to do with it (to be quite honest if I didn't want to have anything to do with it I wouldn't be posting here.) It's not that I refuse to look at my beliefs critically, it's just that I know that this is working for me quite well. You think I don't look at them critically - and my question - why do I need to be so critical about something that I am happy with?

PROVE them, don't accept them without question. You cannot prove something in an honest fashion, if you do so only subjectively.

And answer me this question - have I not been trying to provide you 'proof'? Just because you don't see the proof doesn't mean it isn't there...we are all different, we all may need different proof - why not examine what you are saying there- we all may need different proof - don't knock my proof just because it isn't good enough for you.

As far as not proving something - and not being able to - that is your opinion..I'll just say try heeding your own advice - if we spend our time trying to share with you our first hand personal proof - stop and try to at least look at it.....

Is it hard for you to say because there might be, somewhere, an iota of doubt? Is it fear that causes you to hide behind such a thick wall?

No it has nothing to do with it being hard for me to say, it has to do with the fact that that is not the truth to me, so I won't speak those words. I don't believe it why should I say it? I truly believe that it's about God's timing, not ours. There is no doubt about it being God's timing not ours, there is however, much pride in saying that - for it's a lesson the Master has taught me! It's not fear, there is no wall, I am a God fearing Christian...ready to tackle anything...

It's all about God's timing, not ours.

 

[Dark Virtue]

The similarity is that there must be some sort of proof. Saying it's God's timing is akin to saying, "just trust me".

I truly am beginning to feel like I am repeating myself....me saying that it's God's timing, not ours is simply a lesson that I have learned...but you can't understand....

Or maybe I understand it better than you think.

Dancing again
There are three BASIC answers. Yes, no, maybe.

YOU think that there are only three basic answers, not me. I know there are more than just a yes a no and a maybe to the prayers that He answers.

If there are more, please explain, I'm all ears.

I see, so when you play a board game, God actually controls the roll of the die? Because if he didn't, that would mean something happens by random chance.

Now I know why I lose at Monopoly!

For one who talks about reading too much into words....well since I live for the Lord, your answer is yes...God does control the roll of the die, because I have allowed Him totally and complete reign in my life.

Does he control the randomness in my life as well since I have not allowed him to totally and completely reign in my life?

You seem to be avoiding the direct question. Is there such a thing as chance, randomness, chaos in the world?

I don't think you're helping your cause much. You are saying that you are a Christian because of geography. If you had grown up in the Middle East, you would be Islamic. If you had grown up in India, you'd be Hindu.

Your belief was ingrained into you, taught to you by your parents.

I never said I was Christian because of geography, I said I have always believed in God. I am glad that my parents taught me in the way of the Lord...I am glad that that faith was ingrained me - but even, if you say that my belief was ingrained in me and taught to me by my parents, well it was up to me to continue that or not....just because you are raised some way doesn't mean that you merely accept those ways as an adult. I don't live with them, I am free to choose whatever belief I want...They taught me, they taught me well, but it was me who decided I wanted to continue on that path...

"Point the child in the right direction, when they are old they won't be lost."

Are you missing the point or avoiding it?

It is not proof when judged by the scientific method. It is, instead, anecdotal evidence. That, however, is beside the point. When I said I needed a different kind of proof I meant that all of us require some level of proof to justify our belief. Your reason for believing wouldn't necessarily work for someone else. The proof is as individual as each of us are.

BINGO - the proof is as individual as each of us are....my proof may not necessarily work for somebody else.....BUT it works for me. So it may not work for you - don't knock it because it works for somebody else....

That was my point all along!

YOU are knocking ME because I require something you did not. That's not exactly fair, is it?

Again, the main difference here is that you are not only subjective, you have no wish to view this topic in an objective manner. Yet, you are demanding that of me. Do you think that's fair?

The point here is that I believe in God, that He has worked in my life, and He has worked in your life too - even though you may not see it yet....When it comes to believing in theories that are the tools of the devil - no I won't be objective about that...

Theories are the tool of the devil? Why do you believe that?

Listen, I WANTED to be saved, that is why I sought God. I lived according to his word. And yet, here I am.

Here you are seeking Him....in an indirect way (posting on religious discussions in the Christian Gamers Alliance forums - while I know that you don't have to be a member of CGA to post here, none the less you are posting and conversing with Christians) Ever thought that maybe this is a sign from God? Ever thought this is where He led you?

Let's assume that he has. Now what?

Or maybe I was led here for another reason. One by chance, fate. To plant that seed of doubt in your head.

The Matrix Has You

In the time I've spent studying this issue, I believe WANT and DESIRE play a huge role. If you want and desire something bad enough, you will believe that it is true, even if it's NOT true.

With regards to the Lord, I don't think it matters how much you WANT or DESIRE Him, for even the smallest amount grows....I think it's about having a true heart, a true spirit, it's about more than WANTING to believe, WANTING to be SAVED, I think it's about the true heart and true spirit as well.

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take to get here.

So you are saying that my heart was not true, is that it?

Isn't that a huge assumption on your part.

I take that accusation personally, so I hope you can back it up.

Imagine if you will, that my heart WAS true, my spirit was eager. What then?

First of all, I must again point out that the mere thought of merely pondering anything against your religion has you running scared, you want nothing to do with it. You refuse to look at your beliefs critically, yet you want nonChristians to do that. That is not an honest approach.

The thought of pondering my beliefs does not have me running scared, it has me praying for you. It's not about not wanting to have anything to do with it (to be quite honest if I didn't want to have anything to do with it I wouldn't be posting here.) It's not that I refuse to look at my beliefs critically, it's just that I know that this is working for me quite well. You think I don't look at them critically - and my question - why do I need to be so critical about something that I am happy with?

Ostrich. Head in sand. Mean anything to you.

You said it's not about you not wanting to look at your beliefs critically, but if you look at the earlier part of this post, you will see that you did, indeed, refuse to do so.

You have knowingly taken the blue pill and are comfortable not knowing any other possibilities, even if you are wrong, you don't care, because you're comfortable. That is intellectual dishonesty. You may be happy that way, but I am not.

The EASY thing to do would be to join the majority, become a happy Christian, bury my head in the sand and not THINK. It's HARDER being in the minority, with Christians looking down their noses at you, pitying you, condemning you to hellfire and damnation. But at least I know that I am honest with myself. It's not easy, but it's RIGHT.

PROVE them, don't accept them without question. You cannot prove something in an honest fashion, if you do so only subjectively.

And answer me this question - have I not been trying to provide you 'proof'? Just because you don't see the proof doesn't mean it isn't there...we are all different, we all may need different proof - why not examine what you are saying there- we all may need different proof - don't knock my proof just because it isn't good enough for you.

UH, no, you haven't tried to provide me with anything that even remotely resembles proof. All you have done is told me what helped YOU. And as you have already pointed out (thus agreeing with me) your proof does me no good.

As far as not proving something - and not being able to - that is your opinion..I'll just say try heeding your own advice - if we spend our time trying to share with you our first hand personal proof - stop and try to at least look at it.....

I don't understand why you are beating this dead horse. My experiences have led me to believe that there is no evidence, proof or reason to believe in the existence of God. Does that help you any? Of course not, because to you, it's anecdotal evidence, just as your proof is to me.

REAL proof, REAL evidence is not anecdotal. Have you been to the Eiffel Tower? I haven't. Yet I know it exists because of PROOF and EVIDENCE. You have not given me anything to lead me to believe in God.

And my point is that you shouldn't have to! I don't need/want/desire evidence from you. I think you know who I need it from.

What I am interested in what serves as proof/evidence for YOU. I take that information and decide whether or not it is rational. Someone started a thread on that very subject: is your belief in God rational. So far, my answer seems to be no.

Is it hard for you to say because there might be, somewhere, an iota of doubt? Is it fear that causes you to hide behind such a thick wall?

No it has nothing to do with it being hard for me to say, it has to do with the fact that that is not the truth to me, so I won't speak those words. I don't believe it why should I say it? I truly believe that it's about God's timing, not ours. There is no doubt about it being God's timing not ours, there is however, much pride in saying that - for it's a lesson the Master has taught me! It's not fear, there is no wall, I am a God fearing Christian...ready to tackle anything...

Except the truth.

It's all about God's timing, not ours.

God needs a watch.

 

[Dark Virtue]

FYI, in case you're not getting the pill analogy, it's from The Matrix

Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix?
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
(Neo nods his head.)
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

 

[Eon]

Subjective truth, you have to love it. I'll deal with mister Phantom's little joke first.

Children abducted and murdered by sexual predators. Is their horrific fate down to their lack of faith or their parents? What about those who perish in civil wars they have no ability to affect? What about those who starve to death in the third world? What about those babies born addicted to the drugs their parents took or infected with the diseases their parents acquired?

Whose lack of faith ruined those lives painfully? More to the point, does it even matter? The reckoning for all that is laid at God's door, if you're right. I wouldn't hurry to wear the colours of any deity who does business in that way.

And Froggy, did you ever hear the quote of Thomas Acquinas? "If you give me a boy until the age of 7, I'll give you the man"? Take a critical read of your last couple of posts. Adherence to beliefs that you had drummed into you as a child and now refuse to examine objectively would not be considered laudable if we were discussing any other types of closely held belief.

As DV says, you're a geographical accident. You could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or, dare I say it, Muslim.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

Okay, THAT I'll give you as a miracle.

Is there proof - like did a Doctor examine you and find a compound fracture and then a doctor examine you and find no trace of the injury.

Did you walk out of there completely healed?

Were you referring to me? Or someone else?

 

[Dark Virtue]

This joke kind of sums it up for me...

Nice story, poor analogy.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok. Allow me to spell it out even further.....

I broke my ankle. No biggie you would think. Cast it, stay off it and it would heal on its own. HOWEVER, When I broke my ankle, My Right Ankle, The bone broke through the skin, as in, blood everywhere, see the white bone inside, you might die from it, broke through the skin.
I was 2 1/2 hours away from the nearest hospital. (My Mom made it there in less than an hour.....)
I was getting preped for surgery after arriving at the hospital when my Dad and my Pastor showed up. The first thing they did was pray over me. The next thing I know, The skin is perfect, the bone is healed.
The doctor looked at the xray that they took of my healed ankle and told me it was a miracle. I should have had surgery to repair my ankle. (it has broken in 3 places) To this day there is no calcium deposit or scar on on my ankle showing where the bone broke through the skin. Is that enough proof for you?

No sir, that is not proof.

That is a perfect example though, of anecdotal evidence.

Proof would have some sort of documentation to support your story. I'm not trying to be rude or flippant, I am pointing out a simple fact. These stories that you offer up are NOT evidence or proof.

Look at all the stories of UFO's and aliens. Using your logic, you would have to believe every single one of those stories because, according to you, they are evidence and proof.

Objectively, do you see the problem?

 

[Shyfroggy]

Or maybe I understand it better than you think.

If you understood where I was coming from with that, you wouldn't continue to tell me that I am "scared" or "hiding behind a wall." So with what you have provided me, it doesn't really seem that you understand that it's about God's timing, not ours.

Does he control the randomness in my life as well since I have not allowed him to totally and completely reign in my life?

Perhaps He does.....

You seem to be avoiding the direct question. Is there such a thing as chance, randomness, chaos in the world?

YES - and it is there because of the devil.

Are you missing the point or avoiding it?

I wonder the same thing about you too....

That was my point all along!
YOU are knocking ME because I require something you did not. That's not exactly fair, is it?

And you are knocking me because I didn't require what you need to believe....now that's not exactly fair is it?

Theories are the tool of the devil? Why do you believe that?

If it's not God's word, or God's Will, then it's the devil working....

Let's assume that he has. Now what?

Now take the time to stop and listen, truly hear what we are trying to share with you.

Or maybe I was led here for another reason. One by chance, fate. To plant that seed of doubt in your head.

Well if you feel that is why you were led here, I hate to tell you you have failed...you have not placed doubt into me....remember "God fearing Christian - ready to handle anything...."

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take to get here.
So you are saying that my heart was not true, is that it?
Isn't that a huge assumption on your part.
I take that accusation personally, so I hope you can back it up.
Imagine if you will, that my heart WAS true, my spirit was eager. What then?

I never said "Dark Virtue your heart is not true, your spirit is not eager..." I never said those words, please don't put them into my mouth, I find that offensive. Just because I say that want/desire or a true heart/spirit is what its about - that doesn't mean I'm telling you that you didn't have that....I think though that many people question God and His ability to answer prayers during difficult times, then it's like they are demanding an answer and if they don't get one then it's just like well He must not be real...I saw it happen with my aunt - seemed to be this nice christian person and then DCF took her children away, and that faith that was so strong was gone just as fast as her children were.... In my opinion if one spends there life longing for the Lord, truly seeking His word, and soaking up every ounce of it - how could one not see the blessings the Lord has placed in their life?

Ostrich. Head in sand. Mean anything to you.

You know Dark Virtue, I could ask you that same question, because regardless of what I try to share with you - it's like you can't stop long enough to even try and understand my point of view - yet your point of view is what you want everybody to understand....

You said it's not about you not wanting to look at your beliefs critically, but if you look at the earlier part of this post, you will see that you did, indeed, refuse to do so.

Question - why do you feel the need to persuade me to look at my beliefs critically when I am happy with my beliefs?

You have knowingly taken the blue pill and are comfortable not knowing any other possibilities, even if you are wrong, you don't care, because you're comfortable. That is intellectual dishonesty. You may be happy that way, but I am not.

I have knowingy taken the blue pill - so when did you see me in person? Ok I'll look at it another way - I took the blue pill - I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and much truth/wisdom/understanding/knowledge has come from that.

I understand what you are saying about intellectual dishonesty - however, I do know other possibilities, I have lived other possibilities - I know I was wrong, I did care, and I wasn't comfortable - but you see now I am because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior - I have been cleansed. I am happy living for the Lord, I'm sorry that you aren't. (But I'll be praying for you)

The EASY thing to do would be to join the majority, become a happy Christian, bury my head in the sand and not THINK. It's HARDER being in the minority, with Christians looking down their noses at you, pitying you, condemning you to hellfire and damnation. But at least I know that I am honest with myself. It's not easy, but it's RIGHT.

Well by the same token, the easy thing to do would be to follow the ways of the devil, become happy because one has no rules, no guidelines, bury ones head in the sand and not think about the truth. It's harder to live for Christ, with the devil constantly tempting you and having to deal with people who don't believe in Christ - people whose only purpose to pose doubt/fear. But at least I know I am honest with Christ. It's not easy, but it's RIGHT...

Now some other thoughts I have about that, it's not easy buts it's right? so now tell me where you find that that is the 'right way'???? I'm sure it is harder being in the 'minority' as you say - because you don't have the faith or strength of the Lord and it's harder when the devil tempts you. Do you not look down your nose and pity those who live for the Lord?

UH, no, you haven't tried to provide me with anything that even remotely resembles proof. All you have done is told me what helped YOU. And as you have already pointed out (thus agreeing with me) your proof does me no good.

It does you no good because you refuse to see it for what is...

REAL proof, REAL evidence is not anecdotal. Have you been to the Eiffel Tower? I haven't. Yet I know it exists because of PROOF and EVIDENCE. You have not given me anything to lead me to believe in God.

I'm really sorry about that, I'll continue praying for you and seeking counsel from the Lord on this matter...

What I am interested in what serves as proof/evidence for YOU. I take that information and decide whether or not it is rational. Someone started a thread on that very subject: is your belief in God rational. So far, my answer seems to be no.

And the great thing about America is that we are free. Just because you believe that my belief in God is not rational, well that doesn't make it right - thank GOD!

Except the truth.

Great advice - might I suggest you do the same? God is waiting for you.

God needs a watch.

It's God's timing, not ours.

 

[Shyfroggy]

Phantom, I enjoyed your joke - that is pretty awesome!

 

[Shyfroggy]

Eon

Children abducted and murdered by sexual predators. Is their horrific fate down to their lack of faith or their parents? What about those who starve to death in the third world? What about those babies born addicted to the drugs their parents took or infected with the diseases their parents acquired?

Sounds like the works of Satan to me - abduction, murder, predators....starvation, death, drugs, infection, diseases.....SATAN....

And Froggy, did you ever hear the quote of Thomas Acquinas? "If you give me a boy until the age of 7, I'll give you the man"? Take a critical read of your last couple of posts. Adherence to beliefs that you had drummed into you as a child and now refuse to examine objectively would not be considered laudable if we were discussing any other types of closely held belief.

Beliefs drummed into me - negative!...my parents never cracked a Bible, we prayed before bed, we prayed before meals - that hardly sounds like somebody drumming something into me....for me it was more of a personal choice, a personal journey. And if, as you perceive it, they were drumming this into me - well what happens when one moves away from that influence - they are left to make their own choices, and develop their own beliefs....

As DV says, you're a geographical accident. You could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or, dare I say it, Muslim.

I have great issue with you referring to anybody as a geographical accident - that doesn't show much respect for somebody. I find it offensive that you would stoop to a level of being disrespectful and calling somebody a 'geographical accident' - I do hope that this doesn't continue - there are many ways to express your thoughts without being disrespectful....with that being said....

I could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslin - but the fact remains that I am a Christian....and let me ask you - Does it really matter what brought me to God? All that matters to me is that I do have an awesome Father watching out over me....

It's all about God's timing, not ours!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Or maybe I understand it better than you think.

If you understood where I was coming from with that, you wouldn't continue to tell me that I am "scared" or "hiding behind a wall." So with what you have provided me, it doesn't really seem that you understand that it's about God's timing, not ours.

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from all too well. I have been where you are and can view your position with empathy and hindsight. You may not like what I am saying, but please know I speak with sincerity.

Does he control the randomness in my life as well since I have not allowed him to totally and completely reign in my life?

Perhaps He does.....

yes, no, or you don't know?

Again, why the problem saying you don't know?

You seem to be avoiding the direct question. Is there such a thing as chance, randomness, chaos in the world?

YES - and it is there because of the devil.

How is the devil responsible for randomness and chance?

Are you missing the point or avoiding it?

I wonder the same thing about you too....

Have I, or have I not addressed all your points head on?

That was my point all along!
YOU are knocking ME because I require something you did not. That's not exactly fair, is it?

And you are knocking me because I didn't require what you need to believe....now that's not exactly fair is it?

No, I am knocking you because you are being intellectually dishonest.

And once again, you ignored/avoided a pointed question.

Would you mind answering it?

Theories are the tool of the devil? Why do you believe that?

If it's not God's word, or God's Will, then it's the devil working....

That sounds great in theory, but not in practicality.

I don't remember God or Jesus talking about information technology and the internet. Does that make them of the devil?

How do you know what is of God and what is of the Devil? And what makes you qualified to make that determination?

Let's assume that he has. Now what?

Now take the time to stop and listen, truly hear what we are trying to share with you.

What makes you so sure that I haven't?

Or maybe I was led here for another reason. One by chance, fate. To plant that seed of doubt in your head.

Well if you feel that is why you were led here, I hate to tell you you have failed...you have not placed doubt into me....remember "God fearing Christian - ready to attack anything...."

No worries, I was just mirroring your attitude.

Interesting choice of words...ready to attack anything. No mention of questioning or reasoning, just ATTACK.

Ah, I was wondering how long it would take to get here.
So you are saying that my heart was not true, is that it?
Isn't that a huge assumption on your part.
I take that accusation personally, so I hope you can back it up.
Imagine if you will, that my heart WAS true, my spirit was eager. What then?

I never said "Dark Virtue your heart is not true, your spirit is not eager..." I never said those words, please don't put them into my mouth, I find that offensive. Just because I say that want/desire or a true heart/spirit is what its about - that doesn't mean I'm telling you that you didn't have that....I think though that many people question God and His ability to answer prayers during difficult times, then it's like they are demanding an answer and if they don't get one then it's just like well He must not be real...I saw it happen with my aunt - seemed to be this nice christian person and then DCF took her children away, and that faith that was so strong was gone just as fast as her children were.... In my opinion if one spends there life longing for the Lord, truly seeking His word, and soaking up every ounce of it - how could one not see the blessings the Lord has placed in their life?

Maybe because one could not see the LORD, period.

You may not WANT to believe it, because it goes contrary to your outlook, but there are MANY people who sought and did not find.

Ostrich. Head in sand. Mean anything to you.

You know Dark Virtue, I could ask you that same question, because regardless of what I try to share with you - it's like you can't stop long enough to even try and understand my point of view - yet your point of view is what you want everybody to understand....

Becuase I ALREADY understand your point of view.

I FULLY understand what it is to be a Christian because I was one.

You, however, only know what it is to be a Christian, nothing more. Didn't you say that you grew up Christian and that you have been one all your life?

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

You said it's not about you not wanting to look at your beliefs critically, but if you look at the earlier part of this post, you will see that you did, indeed, refuse to do so.

Question - why do you feel the need to persuade me to look at my beliefs critically when I am happy with my beliefs?

I think I answered this below.

You have knowingly taken the blue pill and are comfortable not knowing any other possibilities, even if you are wrong, you don't care, because you're comfortable. That is intellectual dishonesty. You may be happy that way, but I am not.

I have knownly taken the blue pill - so when did you see me in person? Ok I'll look at it another way - I took the blue pill - I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and much truth/wisdom/understanding/knowledge has come from that.

I understand what you are saying about intellectual dishonesty - however, I do know other possibilities, I have lived other possibilities - I know I was wrong, I did care, and I wasn't comfortable - but you see now I am because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior - I have been cleansed. I am happy living for the Lord, I'm sorry that you aren't. (But I'll be praying for you)

Why must you do that?

You are defending your choice, which I understand. But what you are saying is that your choice is right and mine is wrong. The "but I'll be praying for you" is a dig to me, that you hope I will wake up one day and realize that my life is a mistake. You are being hypocritical.

The EASY thing to do would be to join the majority, become a happy Christian, bury my head in the sand and not THINK. It's HARDER being in the minority, with Christians looking down their noses at you, pitying you, condemning you to hellfire and damnation. But at least I know that I am honest with myself. It's not easy, but it's RIGHT.

Well by the same token, the easy thing to do would be to follow the ways of the devil, become happy because one has no rules, no guidelines, bury ones head in the sand and not think about the truth. It's harder to live for Christ, with the devil constantly tempting you and having to deal with people who don't believe in Christ - people whose only purpose to pose doubt/fear. But at least I know I am honest with Christ. It's not easy, but it's RIGHT...

Logical fallacy.

Do you believe that I have no morals? That I am a homicidal maniac because I don't prostrate myself and worship your god?

I have rules, I have guidelines. I have far greater morals than many "christians" I have seen.

You are no better than I am.

Now some other thoughts I have about that, it's not easy buts it's right? so now tell me where you find that that is the 'right way'???? I'm sure it is harder being in the 'minority' as you say - because you don't have the faith or strength of the Lord and it's harder when the devil tempts you. Do you not look down your nose and pity those who live for the Lord?

No, I don't pity you at all. But you can't say the same, can you? Just look at the "but I will pray for you" comment.

Why don't you tell me why you believe yours is the right way? I believe mine is right because it is intellectually honest. I base my life on reason. I don't need faith, I don't need to have eternal life dangled before me like a carrot. I honestly don't care what you believe, really I don't. But when your beliefs invade my space, then I am forced to take a keen interest in what your beliefs are. And when I don't see your beliefs based on reason, then yes, THAT bothers me.

UH, no, you haven't tried to provide me with anything that even remotely resembles proof. All you have done is told me what helped YOU. And as you have already pointed out (thus agreeing with me) your proof does me no good.

It does you no good because you refuse to see it for what is...

And what is it?

REAL proof, REAL evidence is not anecdotal. Have you been to the Eiffel Tower? I haven't. Yet I know it exists because of PROOF and EVIDENCE. You have not given me anything to lead me to believe in God.

I'm really sorry about that, I'll continue praying for you and seeking counsel from the Lord on this matter...

If you want to do me a favor, DON'T pray for me. I would appreciate that much more.

What I am interested in what serves as proof/evidence for YOU. I take that information and decide whether or not it is rational. Someone started a thread on that very subject: is your belief in God rational. So far, my answer seems to be no.

And the great thing about America is that we are free. Just because you believe that my belief in God is not rational, well that doesn't make it right - thank GOD!

Exactly, freedom of religion, freedom FROM religion.

But is my understanding of your rationality founded? You haven't explained why your beliefs are rational.

Except the truth.

Great advice - might I suggest you do the same? God is waiting for you.

Haven't you listened to anything I've said?

I've lived that life and it did nothing for me.

So honestly, I ask in all sincerity. What would you have me do?

You say God is waiting for me...where was he when I earnestly sought him?

Exactly why should I spend any more time than the decades I put in already?

This isn't a facetious question, it's an honest one.

You turned my words around on me, so I will be the bigger person here and take up your challenge. I hunger for the truth. What should I do to find it?

God needs a watch.

It's God's timing, not ours.

[/quote]

I'll make you a deal, I promise to stop fighting you on that if you will just stop saying it

 

[Dark Virtue]

Children abducted and murdered by sexual predators. Is their horrific fate down to their lack of faith or their parents? What about those who starve to death in the third world? What about those babies born addicted to the drugs their parents took or infected with the diseases their parents acquired?

Sounds like the works of Satan to me - abduction, murder, predators....starvation, death, drugs, infection, diseases.....SATAN....

God created the world.

He created Satan.

He created evil.

He let man fall.

Those things are the works of GOD.

And Froggy, did you ever hear the quote of Thomas Acquinas? "If you give me a boy until the age of 7, I'll give you the man"? Take a critical read of your last couple of posts. Adherence to beliefs that you had drummed into you as a child and now refuse to examine objectively would not be considered laudable if we were discussing any other types of closely held belief.

Beliefs drummed into me - negative!...my parents never cracked a Bible, we prayed before bed, we prayed before meals - that hardly sounds like somebody drumming something into me....for me it was more of a personal choice, a personal journey. And if, as you perceive it, they were drumming this into me - well what happens when one moves away from that influence - they are left to make their own choices, and develop their own beliefs....

A choice? What were your other choices? Would your parents have approved?

I would be interested to know the percentage of Christians today that were raised in a Christian environment. Methinks it would be high.

As DV says, you're a geographical accident. You could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or, dare I say it, Muslim.

I have great issue with you referring to anybody as a geographical accident - that doesn't show much respect for somebody. I find it offensive that you would stoop to a level of being disrespectful and calling somebody a 'geographical accident' - I do hope that this doesn't continue - there are many ways to express your thoughts without being disrespectful....with that being said....

I believe the term I used was a factor of geography, so let's stick with that so no feelings are hurt.

The truth is geography, culture, family and environment play a HUGE role in your religious makeup. Just take a look at a map, the facts are there.

I could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslin - but the fact remains that I am a Christian....and let me ask you - Does it really matter what brought me to God? All that matters to me is that I do have an awesome Father watching out over me....

Sorry, but I am going to call your bluff on this one.

I don't think you COULD easily be anything but Christian. I say that because of the little I know, so please, if I'm wrong, correct me.

Why do you believe you could EASILY be Buddhist, Hindu and/or Muslim? They are not the same thing, in fact, they are wildly different. How much do you really know about those things? Do you know what the Four Noble Truths are? Have you read the Vedas? Do you know what the Five Pillars of Islam are?

I think your knowledge of Christianity FAR outweighs your knowledge of other religions. Again, I could be wrong. Am I?

It's all about God's timing, not ours!

[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.






****
In all seriousness, I want to personally, and publicly thank Shyfroggy for active participation in this thread. It isn't always easy laying out your views for the world to see, especially when it's open for debate. Many people would have quit long before now, or simply shut the thread down. So I want to say thank you. For your patience and for the discussion.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

No sir, that is not proof.

That is a perfect example though, of anecdotal evidence.

Proof would have some sort of documentation to support your story. I'm not trying to be rude or flippant, I am pointing out a simple fact. These stories that you offer up are NOT evidence or proof.

Look at all the stories of UFO's and aliens. Using your logic, you would have to believe every single one of those stories because, according to you, they are evidence and proof.

Objectively, do you see the problem?

Alright sir, One thing I have to say about this. By you demanding proof, are you calling me a liar?

And ancedotal evidence? I think not. I have the medical records to prove that it happend. Am I going to release them to you over the internet? of course not.

So again, Are you calling me a liar?

 

[Eon]

Eskimo, he's not calling you a liar, he's saying that your story (whilst interesting) needs to be taken at face value without supporting evidence in order to be considered proof.

I don't think anyone expects you to submit authentication of your story over the internet, it would be a gross invasion of your privacy, but without that it's what's called Anecdotal Evidence. And most rigorous investigators do not count anecdotal evidence as proof, when it's unsupported.

Froggy, can I add my kudos to DV's? It can't be easy being lit up like this. I hope you know that I have the greatest respect for you the strength of your beliefs, even whilst I'm trying to expose the logical fallacies of their origin.

Now, the first point I want to address is your offence over being called a 'Geographical Accident'. I'm not really referring to YOU as a geographical accident, I'm saying that the colour of your faith is a geographical accident. In much the same way as the colour of your skin and your native tongue is a geographical accident. I'm English - I'm White and I speak English. That's because of where I was born. In many ways the culture of doubt when it comes to faith could also be considered to be a geographical accident. England is one of the most secular states in the world - only 30% believe in some sort of deity.

If I'd been born in Alabamha, you could imagine that I'd be more likely to be a god fearing baptist. If in LA I'd probably be a Latino catholic. That's just the way it works!

Now the Lord's plan is supposed to be ineffable. Ineffable is just a fancy word for "I have no idea why God has committed so many atrocities upon the human race. I can only imagine it's all part of a plan so big that I can't comprehend it."

Of course that seems to suggest that the ends justify the means - something that we, as humans, aren't really comfortable with as an argument in our own affairs.

 

[Shyfroggy]

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from all too well. I have been where you are and can view your position with empathy and hindsight. You may not like what I am saying, but please know I speak with sincerity.

Please know too, that I speak with sincerity when I say it's God's timing not ours.

Does he control the randomness in my life as well since I have not allowed him to totally and completely reign in my life?
Perhaps He does.....
yes, no, or you don't know?
Again, why the problem saying you don't know?

Ok for that one, I'll admit, I don't know because I'm not God.

You are defending your choice, which I understand. But what you are saying is that your choice is right and mine is wrong. The "but I'll be praying for you" is a dig to me, that you hope I will wake up one day and realize that my life is a mistake. You are being hypocritical.

Saying that I would pray for you is not a dig to you....you may not like what I have to say but please know that I speak with sincerity...I'm sorry if I am coming across hypocritical for that is not at all what I meant to do, and in no way am I saying that you are wrong. Your life is not a mistake - God has a plan for you.

Logical fallacy.
Do you believe that I have no morals? That I am a homicidal maniac because I don't prostrate myself and worship your god?
I have rules, I have guidelines. I have far greater morals than many "christians" I have seen.
You are no better than I am.

I don't think you are a crazy homicidal maniac - I think that you are totally and completly in search of the Lord - and at this moment in your search - you are at that point where you feel the need to SEE in order to BELIEVE.

But when your beliefs invade my space, then I am forced to take a keen interest in what your beliefs are. And when I don't see your beliefs based on reason, then yes, THAT bothers me.

I'm glad you said this.....and I have the same reason for taking such a keen interest. I think your word choice was very interesting - you are posting in Christian forums and yet saying that Christian beliefs are invading your space....

UH, no, you haven't tried to provide me with anything that even remotely resembles proof. All you have done is told me what helped YOU. And as you have already pointed out (thus agreeing with me) your proof does me no good.
It does you no good because you refuse to see it for what is...
And what is it?

My proof is my own personal experiences that I have tried to share with you but for whatever reason you are caught up on only wanting a certain type of proof. If I share an experience with you and tell me that that was the proof I needed, then take it for just that. I understand that you may need a different kind of proof, but how can you disregard what I claim is proof?

Haven't you listened to anything I've said?
I've lived that life and it did nothing for me.
So honestly, I ask in all sincerity. What would you have me do?
You say God is waiting for me...where was he when I earnestly sought him?
Exactly why should I spend any more time than the decades I put in already

Yeah actually I have listened to everything you said, thus would explain why I continue to come back day after day and continue to type these really long posts. Why should you spend anymore time seeking God, because, God's timing is different than ours. You put in decades as you say, well what if God's timing meant a few decades and five months? If you give up and don't continue to earnestly seek him, how can you tell if you're selling yourself short...let me ask you this - you say you put in decades searching for the Lord? am I correct? If so was your search simply that, just a search for the Lord or did your time in search of the Lord include asking/praying that he work in your life?

You turned my words around on me, so I will be the bigger person here and take up your challenge. I hunger for the truth. What should I do to find it?

Turn to His word...that is where I have been able to find the truth I need...

I'll make you a deal, I promise to stop fighting you on that if you will just stop saying it

I won't stop saying it, sorry. It's about God's timing, not ours.

God created the world.
He created Satan.
He created evil.
He let man fall.
Those things are the works of GOD.

Was it God that let man fall, or was it his choice?

A choice? What were your other choices? Would your parents have approved?

My parents didn't really care about religion - yeah they believed in God but if we forgot our prayers it was no big deal...As far as other choices, I guess I never really looked in to other choices at the time - I found something that made me feel complete - I found the Lord and my search ended there but yet it also began - I began the search within to see what my beliefs were and I guess to a certain extent the proof I provided you was probably at about a time in my life where I was pretty close to giving up on the Lord....

The truth is geography, culture, family and environment play a HUGE role in your religious makeup. Just take a look at a map, the facts are there.

I agree with you on that point, however, while those things may greatly influence somebody as they are growing and maturing, I also think that once you are out of that environment you are free to make changes as you see fit...I do a lot more reading of the Bible and stuff that I wouldn't have done at home - it was my choice to continue on that path, but even continuing on that path meant that some changes had to be made.

I could so easily be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslin - but the fact remains that I am a Christian....and let me ask you - Does it really matter what brought me to God? All that matters to me is that I do have an awesome Father watching out over me....

Sorry, but I am going to call your bluff on this one.
I don't think you COULD easily be anything but Christian. I say that because of the little I know, so please, if I'm wrong, correct me.
Why do you believe you could EASILY be Buddhist, Hindu and/or Muslim? They are not the same thing, in fact, they are wildly different. How much do you really know about those things? Do you know what the Four Noble Truths are? Have you read the Vedas? Do you know what the Five Pillars of Islam are?
I think your knowledge of Christianity FAR outweighs your knowledge of other religions. Again, I could be wrong. Am I?

It was a figure of speech, Eon mentioned that based on geography I could just as easily have been one of those, I was simply saying as a figure of speech, 'well i guess i could have been any of those, but the facts remain that i am a Christian.' not actually meaning that i could be buddhist or islamic does that make sense? you are right my knowledge of Christianity probably does outweigh my knowledge of any other religion....however, I do know the Four Noble Truths, I have read bits and pieces of the Vedas, and I know what the five pillars of Islam are....I know this because within the last two years I took a comparitive religions class in college (we looked closely at 6 religions) and I also took a cross-cultural class that dealt with different religions as well....do I know a huge amount about them - no, but I was open minded enough to learn what I could during that class....

In all seriousness, I want to personally, and publicly thank Shyfroggy for active participation in this thread. It isn't always easy laying out your views for the world to see, especially when it's open for debate. Many people would have quit long before now, or simply shut the thread down. So I want to say thank you. For your patience and for the discussion.

And I'd like to thank you for causing me to take a closer look at my own beliefs...but I'd also like to say the following - thank God too - for it is Him who has provided me the patience needed to continue this dicussion as long as I have. (Just trying to point something out to you, please don't take offense.)

 

[Dark Virtue]

Alright sir, One thing I have to say about this. By you demanding proof, are you calling me a liar?

And ancedotal evidence? I think not. I have the medical records to prove that it happend. Am I going to release them to you over the internet? of course not.

So again, Are you calling me a liar?

If I were going to call you a liar, I wouldn't find the need to sugar coat it, I would simply do it.

Do you understand the difference between proof and anecdotal evidence? I would appreciate it if you would give mea definition of both, so we're on the same page.

What you may have is indeed proof. By not sharing it and only regailing us with a story, it becomes, to the rest of us, second hand information, anecdotal evidence. Therefore, your proof is not proof to me.

Why, exactly, haven't you shared this information with any medical journals? I don't care if you release them to me or not, I'm not a doctor, neither am I trained to read xrays. Have you shared them with anyone? Documented proof of a real, honest to goodness miracle would be a boon to Christianity.