Dark Virtue
New Member
Which ALSO means that if you discount Catholics, JW's and Mormons, Christianity goes from the largest religion in the world to one of the smallest.
The Popes Opinion on Violence
- Thread starter tjguitarz
- Start date
Which ALSO means that if you discount Catholics, JW's and Mormons, Christianity goes from the largest religion in the world to one of the smallest.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Please read the preceding posts, this has already been covered.
How much do you REALLY know about the Koran? Have you read it all? How long have you studied it?
Now examine the Bible and just how many Christian denominations and different interpretations there are of it. There are over 1,000 different Christian denominations, and yet they all read the same book.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Just 'cuz you don't believe doesn't mean that I can't!
Zeena, I have yet to understand why you quote me when your response has NOTHING to do with what you quote.
Jeshurun
New Member
I agree with what you say here fully and even though I am not a Catholic, I still consider him to be my fellow brother in Christ.
Dark Virtue
New Member
I agree with what you say here fully and even though I am not a Catholic, I still consider him to be my fellow brother in Christ.
That definately puts you in the minority on this board.
The majority of Christians here don't even consider Catholics as Christian.
Genesis1315
Ladies
has the Pope accepted Christ? If yes = brother in Christ
Dark Virtue
New Member
In whose eyes?
Yours?
The last time I checked, the simple, dictionary based definition of Christian is, "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ".
It doesn't say anything about Christ's divinity.
Durruck
Pirate!
wikipedia said:
If they don't believe that Jesus is the Son, then they are not Christians.
You can be a non-believer in the Holy Trinity, but still follow His teachings on morality.
Dark Virtue
New Member
If they don't believe that Jesus is the Son, then they are not Christians according to THAT SPECIFIC definition.
The problem here is there is no ONE, specific definition that ALL Christians can agree on.
From religioustolerance.org, "Each group has their own definition of "Christian" which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word "Christian."
There is no consensus on what the "correct" definition of "Christian" is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. "
If Mormon, JW's and Catholics aren't Christian...then what are they?
Again, no one seems to want to answer this question: if you remove these groups from the definition of Christian...you have relegated Christianity to one of the smallest religions in the world. Are you willing to deal with that?
No one took up my challenge to whittle down my list to show only "true" Christians. So here it is again...which of these should be considered Christian, and which ones should be removed?
Genesis1315
Ladies
k
now, let's get back to the Pope
now, let's get back to the Pope
Let me address these statements.
1. The Roman Catholic does place a lot of things above the authority of Scripture. Including the words and book of previous Popes.
2. According to the Roman Catholics, there is a lot of stuff you must do in addition to 'being saved'. Attend Mass every week, go to Confession (an unBiblical practice.) as well as other stuff.
3. Roman Catholisism does have a lot of secret beliefs.
4. True, they don't believe in exclusitivity, but they do say that all ways lead to God, which is unBiblical.
5. Oh wow, lets see. Can you say indulgences?
Zeena
New Member
Even the demons believe in Jesus, and shudder...
The Pope claims to believe in Jesus yes..But the question is..Does he Love his borther..For this is how Jesus said we'd be able to distinguish one another..Love your brother..This means laying down your life for them..For Jesus set that example quite explicably..Not that we can do this in our flesh, by by the Spirit of Jesus
Does the Pope reveal his Love for the brethren aught to be the question..
And how's about Love for enemies too?
Does he Love his enemies as well?
God alone can answer this..
But we can witness the fruit (we are not called to be fruit inspectors mind you).
The Pope claims to believe in Jesus yes..But the question is..Does he Love his borther..For this is how Jesus said we'd be able to distinguish one another..Love your brother..This means laying down your life for them..For Jesus set that example quite explicably..Not that we can do this in our flesh, by by the Spirit of Jesus
Does the Pope reveal his Love for the brethren aught to be the question..
And how's about Love for enemies too?
Does he Love his enemies as well?
God alone can answer this..
But we can witness the fruit (we are not called to be fruit inspectors mind you).
Jeshurun
New Member
You claim to believe in Jesus as well as I recall
Does he love his brother? Why don't you go to the Vatican yourself and ask him?
Does the Pope reveal his Love for the brethren aught to be the question..[/QUOTE]
That should be for yourself to ask yourself.
And how's about Love for enemies too?[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't you be more concerned about loving your enemies first.
Does he Love his enemies as well?[/QUOTE]
Do you love your enemies should be the question for yourself to answer.
God alone can answer this..[/QUOTE]
But we can witness the fruit (we are not called to be fruit inspectors mind you).[/QUOTE]
You said "We are not called to be fruit inspectors" then why pray tell would you post these words of yours?
Remember these words of Jesus found in Matthew 7:3,4,5 He said, "Why do you see the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye.
Last edited:
wishanem
New Member
Do Catholics love their brothers in practice? Well, world-over Catholics are by far the most charitible group of human beings, especially if you consider how many of them give from a position of relative poverty. Regarding loving ones enemies, how many times has the Pope reached out to people of other denominations, religions, and political leanings in friendship and peace? How many times has the Pope called for an end to violence and used his power for the greater good? Go ahead and look it up if you don't believe me, but it's a big number.
Snake_Six-
1. While some practising Catholics (even members of the clergy) may place the Pope's words or something else above the Bible, this is not officially sanctioned and it goes against what they profess to believe. This is called "Prima Scriptora", (wiki it) and it is the working position of Catholicism. While the Catechism does say "Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.", Tradition with a capital T is later defined as the specifics customs and practises passed down from Jesus through the Apostles. Also, though the Bible is infallible, Tradition is never looked at as infallible, only as worthy of being devoted to and revered.
2. I can't believe you think confessing your sins to a stronger brother or sister in Christ for accountability purposes is wrong, but that's a personal opinion. Attending mass, taking communion, being baptised, etc. are NOT considered necessary for salvation (if one were hit by a truck after being saved, they'd go to heaven), but those practices are the outward signs of an inward change. They believe that without the sacraments, a believer cannot fully understand what they have gained in salvation, or what they should do/be as a believer. It is like the seeds which take root but die out for lack of nutrition. If someone accepts Christ and continues on their earthly course without change, what manner of believer are they?
3. You're wrong that Catholicism has secret beliefs. Certain members may have secret beliefs, but the things that Catholicism is defined by are public knowledge. The Catechism (which is friggin' huge) is the definitive statement of faith which any and all real Roman Catholics hold to. The "Compendium of the Catechism" (a new book, actually) is much shorter and I highly recommend reading it before you go around judging your brothers and sisters so harshly. At the very least it will put your own interpretations of scripture into perspective.
4. Does not all nature testify to the Lord? It is my personal conviction that anyone who is seeking earnestly after God will find Him, and I would rather die then judge another man's salvation. Besides, you're contradicting yourself here, you already said that they require extraBiblical merit to be saved. You're wrong on both counts, but I think it's a mistake made out of genuinely held beliefs and not just bigoted prejudice.
5. The Roman Catholic church has publicly apologised for the practise of indulgences (among other things), though the apology has been criticized as being too sweeping and not specific enough, as most of their apologies tend to be.
I'm not saying that some specific Catholic priests don't lead cults (I have some doubts about particularly extreme sects within the Roman Catholic church), but there are also plenty of people who are attached to mainstream Protestant denominations who have taken their followers in a cultish direction.
I've been to Protestant congregations where the poor were asked to leave or stand outside because their appearance wasn't acceptable, and I have heard a Pastor say that the reason someone's family was suffering was because they hadn't given enough money to the church. I have been told that my own salvation wasn't assured because I wasn't baptised, and that if I really loved Jesus I would do everything within my power to kill Muslim children.
This I believe; there is no innocence where there are men, but there is forgiveness where there is Christ.
EDIT: The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's about 150 pages, but almost any questions one might have about the beliefs of the Catholic church are answered therein.
Snake_Six-
1. While some practising Catholics (even members of the clergy) may place the Pope's words or something else above the Bible, this is not officially sanctioned and it goes against what they profess to believe. This is called "Prima Scriptora", (wiki it) and it is the working position of Catholicism. While the Catechism does say "Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.", Tradition with a capital T is later defined as the specifics customs and practises passed down from Jesus through the Apostles. Also, though the Bible is infallible, Tradition is never looked at as infallible, only as worthy of being devoted to and revered.
2. I can't believe you think confessing your sins to a stronger brother or sister in Christ for accountability purposes is wrong, but that's a personal opinion. Attending mass, taking communion, being baptised, etc. are NOT considered necessary for salvation (if one were hit by a truck after being saved, they'd go to heaven), but those practices are the outward signs of an inward change. They believe that without the sacraments, a believer cannot fully understand what they have gained in salvation, or what they should do/be as a believer. It is like the seeds which take root but die out for lack of nutrition. If someone accepts Christ and continues on their earthly course without change, what manner of believer are they?
3. You're wrong that Catholicism has secret beliefs. Certain members may have secret beliefs, but the things that Catholicism is defined by are public knowledge. The Catechism (which is friggin' huge) is the definitive statement of faith which any and all real Roman Catholics hold to. The "Compendium of the Catechism" (a new book, actually) is much shorter and I highly recommend reading it before you go around judging your brothers and sisters so harshly. At the very least it will put your own interpretations of scripture into perspective.
4. Does not all nature testify to the Lord? It is my personal conviction that anyone who is seeking earnestly after God will find Him, and I would rather die then judge another man's salvation. Besides, you're contradicting yourself here, you already said that they require extraBiblical merit to be saved. You're wrong on both counts, but I think it's a mistake made out of genuinely held beliefs and not just bigoted prejudice.
5. The Roman Catholic church has publicly apologised for the practise of indulgences (among other things), though the apology has been criticized as being too sweeping and not specific enough, as most of their apologies tend to be.
I'm not saying that some specific Catholic priests don't lead cults (I have some doubts about particularly extreme sects within the Roman Catholic church), but there are also plenty of people who are attached to mainstream Protestant denominations who have taken their followers in a cultish direction.
I've been to Protestant congregations where the poor were asked to leave or stand outside because their appearance wasn't acceptable, and I have heard a Pastor say that the reason someone's family was suffering was because they hadn't given enough money to the church. I have been told that my own salvation wasn't assured because I wasn't baptised, and that if I really loved Jesus I would do everything within my power to kill Muslim children.
This I believe; there is no innocence where there are men, but there is forgiveness where there is Christ.
EDIT: The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's about 150 pages, but almost any questions one might have about the beliefs of the Catholic church are answered therein.
Last edited:
Durruck
Pirate!
I don't know enough about any other denomination to say what they believe or don't believe. The Bible tells us that they only way to get to the Father is through the Son. If any one of the 140 denominations you listed above (yes, I counted) read, believe, and practice what the Bible tells them, that makes them Christians.
If you claim that Catholics aren't Christians and that makes us the smallest religion in the world, that's fine. That just means that I have more witnessing to do about my experiences.
But for the Pope and his stand on Islam & violence...
It seems odd to me that in the recent days, Islamic extremists have begun violent protests and such...just to prove that the Pope was wrong and that they're not violent.
Dark Virtue
New Member
As much as I would like to comment, I thought Gen was trying to get this thread back on track.
I have neither the time noe the patience to answer you're whole post, Wishanem. But I will reply to one of the statements.
Confessing you're sins is not unBiblcal, the Roman Catholic act of Confession is.
Confession is confessing you're sins to a priest so that he may absolve you of them and assign you a penance. That is unBiblical. "There is only one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus." The priest dose not have the athourity to absolve you of you're sins or give you penance.
Confessing you're sins is not unBiblcal, the Roman Catholic act of Confession is.
Confession is confessing you're sins to a priest so that he may absolve you of them and assign you a penance. That is unBiblical. "There is only one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus." The priest dose not have the athourity to absolve you of you're sins or give you penance.
Dark Virtue
New Member
How is this any different than following the instruction of a minister or pastor? It's just done on a larger scale.
What's unbiblical about confession? Isn't one of the commandments to kee the Sabbath? What's wrong with going to mass every week?
Such as?
Where do they say that and how is it unbiblical?
Oh wow, can you say this was last done HUNDREDS of years ago? If you want to point fingers you should save a few for the plethora of non-Catholic mega-churches that keep popping up.
Seriously, Christianity has enough problems without all the infighting. Learn to settle your differences instead of playing the piety game.
As an outsider looking in, Christianity is no better than any other religion. Clean up the mess in your own yard before chastising others. Christianity would earn so much respect from the world if it would practice what it preaches and unify.
wishanem
New Member
Snake- I apologise for writing more then you like to read, but it hurts me to see hurtful statements made by a brother against his brother. I think you should talk to a Priest about your issues with Catholicism, because otherwise you're just slandering your brothers without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
Regarding confession- absolution is provided by God, and penance isn't a work to pay for sin it's the act of confessing the sin to God and being forgiven. The little assignments the Priest gives out aren't merit for the guilty, they're guided prayer whose purpose is to help the sinner get back on track.
Earlier tonight I was at a little discussion group called "Bible Fight Club" and Father Bob, a Catholic Priest, offered a quote from Voltaire and another from Ghandi. Voltaire was a pretty terrible guy, and a strong critic of Christianity, and he said "If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed." Gandhi, who is well admired for good reason, said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Both of these men were outside Christianity looking in, and what they saw was hypocrisy. If there was a distinction between Catholics and Protestants in this respect they would've mentioned it, wouldn't they?
Regarding confession- absolution is provided by God, and penance isn't a work to pay for sin it's the act of confessing the sin to God and being forgiven. The little assignments the Priest gives out aren't merit for the guilty, they're guided prayer whose purpose is to help the sinner get back on track.
Earlier tonight I was at a little discussion group called "Bible Fight Club" and Father Bob, a Catholic Priest, offered a quote from Voltaire and another from Ghandi. Voltaire was a pretty terrible guy, and a strong critic of Christianity, and he said "If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed." Gandhi, who is well admired for good reason, said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Both of these men were outside Christianity looking in, and what they saw was hypocrisy. If there was a distinction between Catholics and Protestants in this respect they would've mentioned it, wouldn't they?
wishanem
New Member
Dark Virtue- I didn't see your post or I'd have tacked this onto the one above it.
I want to apologise to you for the infighting within the church. We want so much to seek truth and to hold onto it that we defend opinions and interpretations like they're the truth we're seeking. But when you say that we are no better then any other religion you're right. We're a bunch of imperfect jerks, but what makes us different isn't religious. What we have is based on undeserved love and forgiveness for our guilt, on a person-to-person basis. I have wronged God, and I have wronged my fellow man. I'm sorry and I want to change, but I know I'm going to keep screwing up.
Even if he wasn't in the wrong, the Pope apologised because he loves his Muslim brothers and wants more then anything else for them to be with him in heaven. When was the last time you heard of an Imam apologising for anything? Christians' ability to admit guilt and ask for forgiveness is our only strength, everything else comes from God.
I want to apologise to you for the infighting within the church. We want so much to seek truth and to hold onto it that we defend opinions and interpretations like they're the truth we're seeking. But when you say that we are no better then any other religion you're right. We're a bunch of imperfect jerks, but what makes us different isn't religious. What we have is based on undeserved love and forgiveness for our guilt, on a person-to-person basis. I have wronged God, and I have wronged my fellow man. I'm sorry and I want to change, but I know I'm going to keep screwing up.
Even if he wasn't in the wrong, the Pope apologised because he loves his Muslim brothers and wants more then anything else for them to be with him in heaven. When was the last time you heard of an Imam apologising for anything? Christians' ability to admit guilt and ask for forgiveness is our only strength, everything else comes from God.