Shinigami Naruto
New Member
Oh so true
:Sheth
Zerg Thoughts
- Thread starter Shinigami Naruto
- Start date
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
does he need some curly cries with his whaaaaa...mburger?
banelines/speedlings/fast roaches/hydra-lings/muta-ling
each have their place depending on terran tech.
banelines/speedlings/fast roaches/hydra-lings/muta-ling
each have their place depending on terran tech.
I know I'm no expert on StarCraft strategy and I'm definitely sympathic to the Zerg plight, but is "ghosts/nukes" really considered an opening strategy?
Shinigami Naruto
New Member
Yeah, ghost nuke i've never heard of before, but he's a pro... so maybe he has. The problem is is that It takes soo much time for zerg to be able to switch to anything else cause of the upgrade time of the lair, and then the time it takes to build spire/hydra den
Keero
Tribe of Judah Membership Administrator
I concur with Bowser, agree with Naruto, but oppose the concerns addressed in the post I agreed with. The concurrence stands on its own. Meeting adjourned.
Where's the Protoss QQ? Sentries need quadruple the damage to make them balanced against SCVs.
/had sugar and a 5-hour energy for breakfast
Last edited:
Odale
Active Member
Nerf 'em both. End of story.
Protoss ftw.
Kidding.
What about normal people (or terrible ones such as myself haha)? I know I couldn't pull off a nuke strike, even if I was good!
Protoss ftw.
Kidding.
What about normal people (or terrible ones such as myself haha)? I know I couldn't pull off a nuke strike, even if I was good!
The only nuke I ever dropped was during a 3v3 when I was playing Zerg.
No, it's not a typo.
Mostly_Harmless
Tribe of Judah Unreal Tournament Chapter Co-leader
after patch 1.1 zerg will have the option to fe because of much slower reaper rush and bunker rush as well.
Every time I see the title of this thread, I think:
FOR THE SWARM!
That's what I imagine the Zerg are thinking.
FOR THE SWARM!
That's what I imagine the Zerg are thinking.
Mostly_Harmless
Tribe of Judah Unreal Tournament Chapter Co-leader
Since when do Zerg "think" anyway? They have no free will : )
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
zerg has only 9 units as opposed to 12-13. if you want to look deeper, you could look at the different tier 1 units and analyze them and see how many creative ways one could use them to create an open. There's not much you can do with them due to their simplicity. There's 6 pool ling rush, there's baneling rush... but then again, if we commit to those, we're basically dead if they dont work out... that's not how pros play. Since by blizzard's definition, zerg is a reactionary race who needs to focus on econ... but then again, it's hard to do that 'cuz of the many proven and battle tested opens other races have against us.
we can't simply just fast expand and drone up... we can, but then we get delay while other races pass us by in terms of econ anyway (if he/she is a capable terran)
It's already hard for a zerg to build up econ... so you'd think there would be some sort of reward for taking such a risk in the open to build up that economy... nope, not really, terran just has to call in mules, and they can do that comfortably without any risks whatsoever.
for a zerg, you fast expand and build too many drones, it could = your death, however, if you dont, that could also lead to your slow death.
burrows, sure they are fun, but against a capable player who actively scans every choke points, have towers everywhere, have ravens.... they are basically useless. which is why you dont see them often.
on top of that, we are handicapped by the fact that we need to do a lot more than the other races.... to spread tumor, to spawn larvae every 15 seconds... etc etc.
if you look at the top200 chart for n.america. you'll see taht there's 1 zerg in top 20. about 99 terrans in top200, about 66 protoss, and maybe 30 or so zergs.
i dont think that's because zergs players are dumber than the rest.. it simply means, our race is more handicapped, and less refined than the other races. there's simply less we can do with the units we have..... and the units we do have... they're not unique enough to allow us to be creative with them.
but the juggernaut is the fact that there simply isn't much of an option for us in terms of open. you either choose to do a safe build and hope to god you survive the open, or you all in rush with roach rush or early 6 pool, or baneling burst (but if you do choose this route, you're deviating from the ONLY way you can beat the other races... and that is your econ) why do you think players like idra and other good zergs all do the same build ? 14 gas/14 pool? 'cuz one deviation from a concentrated econ build could lead to your death.
on the other hand, terrans can gather minerals so much faster than the zerg due to mules, AND they get to turtle by blocking off entrances to their bases; eliminating 1/2 the worries, all the while harrasing and slowing down the opponent's econ at the same time.
look at medivacs, look at how many things you can do with them... come on lol
sure we have mutas, we have hydras.... but you know how much longer it is for us to get our decent units compare to the other races? just look at our tech tree.
how fast can you get your tanks up? and how fast can we get ultralisks up? lol come on now.
to further compare the units, each zerg unit might be only good vs one type of enemy units... say banelings vs marines.... roaches vs zealots.... now let's look at seige tanks: great against banelings, lings, and just about everything else on this planet.
medivacs, great for fast auto healing an entire army composition. great for transporting and moving units fast, great for drops. reapers/hellions, great for killing lings, banelings, drones in a blink of an eye. Ghost(sniper) great for picking off drones with 1-2 shots, picking off mutas with 1-2 shots, lings, banelings, queens.
list goes on.
a lot of the terran units complement each other perfectly in a composition... but with zerg, there's less of these synchronicities. each one has its one thing that it does well. mutas to pick off things (such as tanks, only if marines are not around), banelings to attack marines, (only if mechs are not behind), lings to surround marauders (only if marines, thors, tanks are not around)
that's why zerg is a very unrefined race at the moment. even after the patch it will most likely still stay the same unless any major changes are done.
TERRAN- TOO REFINED, OP
PROTOSS - SEMI-REFINED, right in the middle
ZERG - UNREFINED, UP
-------------------------------------that's pretty much what the top200 data is telling us at the moment as well.
right now it's like we are forced by blizzard to be the econ race, yet, blizzard gives the other races all these ways to prevent us from building econ, and even allows them to build up their econ faster than us through mules? all while taking little risks and not go all-in? i mean, we are already the weakest race in terms of units, the mules should've been ours! lol now we're slower at gathering, weaker at attacking, and just all in all less versatile.
sure, can zerg still win? of course. however, if you put a pro zerg player vs a (high rank diamond non-pro) and let them play 100 games... and you let a pro terran player vs a (high rank diamond non-pro) and let them play 100 games.... i promise you, the zerg player will have less consistency.
we can't simply just fast expand and drone up... we can, but then we get delay while other races pass us by in terms of econ anyway (if he/she is a capable terran)
It's already hard for a zerg to build up econ... so you'd think there would be some sort of reward for taking such a risk in the open to build up that economy... nope, not really, terran just has to call in mules, and they can do that comfortably without any risks whatsoever.
for a zerg, you fast expand and build too many drones, it could = your death, however, if you dont, that could also lead to your slow death.
burrows, sure they are fun, but against a capable player who actively scans every choke points, have towers everywhere, have ravens.... they are basically useless. which is why you dont see them often.
on top of that, we are handicapped by the fact that we need to do a lot more than the other races.... to spread tumor, to spawn larvae every 15 seconds... etc etc.
if you look at the top200 chart for n.america. you'll see taht there's 1 zerg in top 20. about 99 terrans in top200, about 66 protoss, and maybe 30 or so zergs.
i dont think that's because zergs players are dumber than the rest.. it simply means, our race is more handicapped, and less refined than the other races. there's simply less we can do with the units we have..... and the units we do have... they're not unique enough to allow us to be creative with them.
but the juggernaut is the fact that there simply isn't much of an option for us in terms of open. you either choose to do a safe build and hope to god you survive the open, or you all in rush with roach rush or early 6 pool, or baneling burst (but if you do choose this route, you're deviating from the ONLY way you can beat the other races... and that is your econ) why do you think players like idra and other good zergs all do the same build ? 14 gas/14 pool? 'cuz one deviation from a concentrated econ build could lead to your death.
on the other hand, terrans can gather minerals so much faster than the zerg due to mules, AND they get to turtle by blocking off entrances to their bases; eliminating 1/2 the worries, all the while harrasing and slowing down the opponent's econ at the same time.
look at medivacs, look at how many things you can do with them... come on lol
sure we have mutas, we have hydras.... but you know how much longer it is for us to get our decent units compare to the other races? just look at our tech tree.
how fast can you get your tanks up? and how fast can we get ultralisks up? lol come on now.
to further compare the units, each zerg unit might be only good vs one type of enemy units... say banelings vs marines.... roaches vs zealots.... now let's look at seige tanks: great against banelings, lings, and just about everything else on this planet.
medivacs, great for fast auto healing an entire army composition. great for transporting and moving units fast, great for drops. reapers/hellions, great for killing lings, banelings, drones in a blink of an eye. Ghost(sniper) great for picking off drones with 1-2 shots, picking off mutas with 1-2 shots, lings, banelings, queens.
list goes on.
a lot of the terran units complement each other perfectly in a composition... but with zerg, there's less of these synchronicities. each one has its one thing that it does well. mutas to pick off things (such as tanks, only if marines are not around), banelings to attack marines, (only if mechs are not behind), lings to surround marauders (only if marines, thors, tanks are not around)
that's why zerg is a very unrefined race at the moment. even after the patch it will most likely still stay the same unless any major changes are done.
TERRAN- TOO REFINED, OP
PROTOSS - SEMI-REFINED, right in the middle
ZERG - UNREFINED, UP
-------------------------------------that's pretty much what the top200 data is telling us at the moment as well.
right now it's like we are forced by blizzard to be the econ race, yet, blizzard gives the other races all these ways to prevent us from building econ, and even allows them to build up their econ faster than us through mules? all while taking little risks and not go all-in? i mean, we are already the weakest race in terms of units, the mules should've been ours! lol now we're slower at gathering, weaker at attacking, and just all in all less versatile.
sure, can zerg still win? of course. however, if you put a pro zerg player vs a (high rank diamond non-pro) and let them play 100 games... and you let a pro terran player vs a (high rank diamond non-pro) and let them play 100 games.... i promise you, the zerg player will have less consistency.
Last edited:
Mostly_Harmless
Tribe of Judah Unreal Tournament Chapter Co-leader
THis is a good post. I had no idea zerg had only 9 units. wow! They must bring back the lurker for sure! imagine fungal growth on top of a bio ball and moving in lurkers. Insta death for terrans. I agree with this post and hope to see some new units and buffs. Really every race should have the same number of different kinds of units. Zerg is actually good early game. I have the most trouble fast expanding vs them because lings are super strong early on when terran has no upgrades.
Shinigami Naruto
New Member
OMG you really put that well, i saw similar things on the forum where i got the original post, but not quite so elequently stated (sry can't spell). I really noticed that unit type discrepency, and I thought that was just me. So i'm glad to notice others taking note. Very true post Syrian.
Mostly_Harmless
Tribe of Judah Unreal Tournament Chapter Co-leader
Oh he made this post himself? I thought he copy and paste from an article or something. Props to you! This is superb!
lol an article wouldn't have so many random ... after every sentence haha
but yeah, it's kinda nonsense.
Moderator's note: Please watch the language and re-read the Terms of Service.
And, Naruto, i think i read that thread you were thinking of on bnet's forum as well; in it, it basically describes how blizzard counted even broodlings and infested terrans as zerg's attacking units. but in reality, we really only have 9. and even our 9 are very subpar in comparison to the other races. :\
oh, and another data to go along with the top200 n.american chart would be the on-going GSL tournament in korea (the biggest sc2 tournament thus far, with the biggest prize pool ($200,000) and without a doubt THE tournament where the highest caliber of players are gathered)
of the people that made it through the preliminaries and through round of 64 and into round of 32. only 4-5 are zergs out of the 32 that made it (and one got in because it was a zvz match) lol. And this is korea we're talking about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
everything about zerg is just tedious and full of obstacles. it's like, hey! you guys can use these units, but they're only useful if you have creep tumors everywhere, otherwise they're useless. oh, you need to have a lot more bases and have a stronger econ than the other races, BUT we made it almost impossible for you to achieve that unless the opponent you're playing is several levels below you and have not seen the many capable builds that are tailored made to deny the zergs of their economy expansion.
oh, the zerg is supposed to be the econ race and use it to mass produce, BUT we made it so that other races can gather faster and prevent that from ever happening -- therefore, the zerg isn't always the first race to reach max supply 200/200. And when it gets to 200/200 vs 200/200, stronger units pretty much always wins.
like maybe set up the game so it's easier for us to have more units early? or allow us 250/250 as opposed to 200/200?
------------------------------------------
oh, and regarding sheth's comment about the nuke/ghost open. i've seen it in GSL recently lol
i guess compare to the reaper/hellion/bunker rushes it's a bit slower, but basically, it's still a good strategy that can be pulled off to slow down the zerg production.
it probably only works best on certain maps. But, basically with this strategy, the terran would get 1-2 ghosts and a medivac. then drop the ghosts on a cliff right next to the zerg base. have them take out the drones one by one, and then call in for nukes to further devastate the mineral line. And basically just repeat over and over making drops everywehre (while he gets his econ up)
something similar happened in this match: GSL.Ro64.Day-1. [Z] IdrA vs [T] JiTaeHunZenith - Game-2
though in this case, idra stuffed it.. but it certainly is very viable option for terran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao2lFSnzfB8
by the way, idra is playing tomorrow
but yeah, it's kinda nonsense.
Moderator's note: Please watch the language and re-read the Terms of Service.
And, Naruto, i think i read that thread you were thinking of on bnet's forum as well; in it, it basically describes how blizzard counted even broodlings and infested terrans as zerg's attacking units. but in reality, we really only have 9. and even our 9 are very subpar in comparison to the other races. :\
oh, and another data to go along with the top200 n.american chart would be the on-going GSL tournament in korea (the biggest sc2 tournament thus far, with the biggest prize pool ($200,000) and without a doubt THE tournament where the highest caliber of players are gathered)
of the people that made it through the preliminaries and through round of 64 and into round of 32. only 4-5 are zergs out of the 32 that made it (and one got in because it was a zvz match) lol. And this is korea we're talking about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
everything about zerg is just tedious and full of obstacles. it's like, hey! you guys can use these units, but they're only useful if you have creep tumors everywhere, otherwise they're useless. oh, you need to have a lot more bases and have a stronger econ than the other races, BUT we made it almost impossible for you to achieve that unless the opponent you're playing is several levels below you and have not seen the many capable builds that are tailored made to deny the zergs of their economy expansion.
oh, the zerg is supposed to be the econ race and use it to mass produce, BUT we made it so that other races can gather faster and prevent that from ever happening -- therefore, the zerg isn't always the first race to reach max supply 200/200. And when it gets to 200/200 vs 200/200, stronger units pretty much always wins.
like maybe set up the game so it's easier for us to have more units early? or allow us 250/250 as opposed to 200/200?
------------------------------------------
oh, and regarding sheth's comment about the nuke/ghost open. i've seen it in GSL recently lol
i guess compare to the reaper/hellion/bunker rushes it's a bit slower, but basically, it's still a good strategy that can be pulled off to slow down the zerg production.
it probably only works best on certain maps. But, basically with this strategy, the terran would get 1-2 ghosts and a medivac. then drop the ghosts on a cliff right next to the zerg base. have them take out the drones one by one, and then call in for nukes to further devastate the mineral line. And basically just repeat over and over making drops everywehre (while he gets his econ up)
something similar happened in this match: GSL.Ro64.Day-1. [Z] IdrA vs [T] JiTaeHunZenith - Game-2
though in this case, idra stuffed it.. but it certainly is very viable option for terran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao2lFSnzfB8
by the way, idra is playing tomorrow
Last edited by a moderator:
Odale
Active Member
Very nice post, but I wonder why many Korean players excel at Zerg if it is truly handicapped. I am not saying you aren't correct, but look at this list or this list of the top 20 out of 200 Korean players:
1......Terran......요츠바랑
2......Protoss......NEXGenius
3......Protoss......테란짱이긔
4......Terran......oGsEnsnare
5......Zerg......oGsZenio
6......Zerg......새로운시작
7......Terran......oogsGon
8......Zerg......oGsTheWinD
9......Zerg......oooooooa
11.....Zerg......CezannePrime
12.....Terran......oGsTOP
13.....Terran......AtreyuPrime
14.....Zerg......Sulli
15.....Random......오지에서과일장수
16.....Zerg......PainKiller
17.....Terran......MioWeRRa
18.....Zerg......CheckPrime
19.....Protoss......HongUnPrime
20.....Zerg......새로운시작
I'm definitely not trying to knock you, but if so many Korean players excel at Zerg, it makes me wonder if they are really handicapped.
1......Terran......요츠바랑
2......Protoss......NEXGenius
3......Protoss......테란짱이긔
4......Terran......oGsEnsnare
5......Zerg......oGsZenio
6......Zerg......새로운시작
7......Terran......oogsGon
8......Zerg......oGsTheWinD
9......Zerg......oooooooa
11.....Zerg......CezannePrime
12.....Terran......oGsTOP
13.....Terran......AtreyuPrime
14.....Zerg......Sulli
15.....Random......오지에서과일장수
16.....Zerg......PainKiller
17.....Terran......MioWeRRa
18.....Zerg......CheckPrime
19.....Protoss......HongUnPrime
20.....Zerg......새로운시작
I'm definitely not trying to knock you, but if so many Korean players excel at Zerg, it makes me wonder if they are really handicapped.
Last edited:
well the GSL tournament in korea is basically a korean tournament with only a handful of foreigners. It's a tournament with $200,000 on the line; a tournament where pros go all out to achieve victory. And in this tournament, hardly any zergs are advancing.
I would think this would be a better indication of what's going on in korea. Also, you have to account in the fact that there's probably more hardcore zerg players in korea than any other countries probably largely due to their experience in sc1 -- and when there's a larger population of zerg players, i'm sure it's probably a bit easier for the zergs to saturate that list.
But again, i believe the best indicators is still the winning percentage/consistency at the pro level. And GSL is showing that zerg is definitely not doing so well (and i can tell you, all of those guys in that list have entered)
Or we can look at europe's IEM cup, N.America's IEM cup, and eu's go4sc2 cups every wednesday where top level european pros compete every wednesday. I dont think i have ever seen a zerg win the tournament. If it did happen, it msut have been a rare occurence, because i follow these tournaments religiously.
I would think this would be a better indication of what's going on in korea. Also, you have to account in the fact that there's probably more hardcore zerg players in korea than any other countries probably largely due to their experience in sc1 -- and when there's a larger population of zerg players, i'm sure it's probably a bit easier for the zergs to saturate that list.
But again, i believe the best indicators is still the winning percentage/consistency at the pro level. And GSL is showing that zerg is definitely not doing so well (and i can tell you, all of those guys in that list have entered)
Or we can look at europe's IEM cup, N.America's IEM cup, and eu's go4sc2 cups every wednesday where top level european pros compete every wednesday. I dont think i have ever seen a zerg win the tournament. If it did happen, it msut have been a rare occurence, because i follow these tournaments religiously.
Last edited: