Catholic Miracles

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]What!? Surprised that the Church of Mammon can come up with a few bucks.

Wake up! If the Jews and the Free Masons thought for one second that your little silly ass church was on the right street corner to make even the slightest inroad into Catholic Membership, then they would have written you Church that check. Satan is using you as a weapon. Some miracle! When you are burning in Hell you will also think it is a 'miracle' that all the little flames on your hands and fingers burn and burn and never go out.

LMAO! I CANT STOP LAUGHING! That's why I love you, Leo. Oh wow. I actually have tears in my eyes.

Anyways, Ultima, Mary appearing and prophecying and what not would give Mary the veneration the Protestants deny her, yet the Catholic Church gives. Furthermore, it would give support to the notion of tradition and post-biblical occurances having authority in the life of the Christian.

 

[CCGR]

umm would catholics think I'd go to purgatory first?

look I'm what you would call a heretic do what you will, burn me at the stake I will die for my savior.

I'm a christian, I believe in God and his son Jesus Christ, holy spirit and the Bible being God's inspired word..anything that goes against the Bible I am against.

let's agree on the majors, be tolerant on the minors and in all things love.

Please tone down your language, you have been warned.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

If Mary appears. Yeah. My mother's yet to see Mary appear, and she was a Catholic to the core for some twenty+ years. Even as a kid, Mary supposedly appeared on a barndoor (I kid ye not) where my mom lived. All the Mexicans took off to go pay their respects to the Divine and lo and behold! Mom can't see the Virgin. What's up with that? Mass hallucination among adults? Not enough faith? Or were they seeing shapes in the wood circles as one sees shapes in water stains? "Gah! Mary's appeared above the pot! Run, quick, get the priest!"

The Freemasons would be a cult...not a religion.
How is her church being used as a tool of Satan b/c they've received money? Take one glance at a staple Catholic church and ohmyfreakinggosh, how huge the steeple! How deep the bell! How decorated THE FREAKING VATICAN!
If money's the tool of the devil, geez, the Vatican must be the gateway to hell.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 11 2003,11:23)]umm would catholics think I'd go to purgatory first?

look I'm what you would call a heretic do what you will, burn me at the stake I will die for my savior.  

I'm a christian, I believe in God and his son Jesus Christ, holy spirit and the Bible being God's inspired word..anything that goes against the Bible I am against.

let's agree on the majors, be tolerant on the minors and in all things love.

Please tone down your language, you have been warned.

Dear CCGR,

You pose a few interesting questions.

In regards the Bible. It was a reference material published by the Catholic Church in the 4th Century. It was intended as a study guide. It was never intended to supplant Church Teachings that went directly back to Christ. Especially in regards to the Letters of Paul. Simply because they are in a Reference Book we can't infer that they are Holy Truth. They may have been placed in the Reference Book as a Concordcance to Everything that had ever been or will be Heretical (my opinion). Anyway, the important thing to remember is that not every book in the Bible has been created equal. There are the Gospels which give us the Very Words of Christ. There are the Letters of Paul which give us the words of a Self Proclaimed Apostle who hated all of the other Apostles, who hated Jewish Tradition, who can't go a page without having to deny he is a liar and an embezzler, and who presents a Doctrine different then that presented by Christ Himself. The Letters of Paul and the Gospels speak two different Religions and they can't both be True. One is the Church of Christ. The other is the Church of Paul.

So... The Bible is your Free Will Spiritual Test. You have read the Gospels and you have Read the Letters of Paul. Whether you go to Heaven or Hell -- whether you belong to God or to Satan -- it all depends on how you pick what you chose to believe.



Now, about Purgatory. You know, in a strange way it is a very wonderful thing to go to Purgatory. It means you are not going to Hell. Purgatory is not forever. However, there are some strange rules regarding Purgatory. Apparently, no amount of Penance you do in Purgatory can count for yourself. You can be delivered from Purgatory only by the Prayer and Penance of others. Not to worry. There are Catholics by the thousands who never omit to say prayers for those in Purgatory. This is one of the leading reasons why Catholics try to convert Prots back to The Church -- because now they simply aren't praying or doing penance for anything. They think they are 'saved' and just sit on their asses congratulating each other and trying to get more people to reject the True Faith and join them in doing nothing.

But yes, Purgatory will purify your Soul and make you fit to be in Heaven with the Angels and Saints without stinking the place up or offending with your vile thoughts and bad manners and inherent selfishness.

However, on line you can go to Phillip Kramer's Prophecy about heaven hell and purgatory and there we find that there are various Heavenly Planets, so some concession is made for distinctions in character. Kindred souls are placed together in the view that they won't be irritating to each other. On Feast Days, Souls will be able to travel between 'planets' to visit old friends and family, on the premise that everyone will be able to tolerate the annoying aspects of old friends and family for at least a brief visit.

There are some exceptions made regarding Purgatory. If one belongs to the Order of the Brown Scapular, then you will be rescued from Purgatory by Our Lady in the first Saturday of the Month. Now, it takes a while to go through the process of becoming a Catholic. But the Rule Book really doesn't specify that you need to be 'completely' Catholic to be in the Order of the Brown Scapular. You just find a Priest to enroll you and you are in. And you wear a funny little brown cloth under your shirt for the rest of your life.

 

[Guest]

satan can do miracles even in those church buildings that WERE NOT SUPPOSSED TO BE CONSTRUCTED in the first place.
satan does not impress me.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (adelpit346 @ Oct. 12 2003,12:41)]satan can do miracles even in those church buildings that WERE NOT SUPPOSSED TO BE CONSTRUCTED in the first place.
satan does not impress me.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

Dear Adelpit,

You are either silly or you are inspired.

So I have a question. There is the Sin that Sent Satan to Hell. And there is the Sin that keeps Satan in Hell. What are they?

 

[timor]

Yeah, Leo, don't pay attn to adel anymore. I mean, I don't even read his posts anymore. I just skip over them.

And about the Brown Scapular, I used to wear one

Are you "in it"?

I'm still interested, though, in where the idea of Purgatory arose, as it is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it must have come about extrabiblically through Church tradition, correct?

Also, your idea of the Bible being a guidebook is pretty interesting, and in fact does make sense under light scrutiny. Heavvy scrutiny has not yet occured, I'm too tired

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Also, the Protestants have been effectively cut off from Grace.  Our Lady will appear to the Greek Orthodox branch of the Catholic Church, as well as the Coptic Branch.  But She does not recognize the Church of Paul --the Church that insults the Eucharist, Herself, and the Saints.

Please back this up scripturally.  And I mean the Word of God, not something a pope said or wrote.



Cory

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 12 2003,1:28)]Yeah, Leo, don't pay attn to adel anymore. I mean, I don't even read his posts anymore. I just skip over them.

And about the Brown Scapular, I used to wear one

 Are you "in it"?

I'm still interested, though, in where the idea of Purgatory arose, as it is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it must have come about extrabiblically through Church tradition, correct?

Also, your idea of the Bible being a guidebook is pretty interesting, and in fact does make sense under light scrutiny. Heavvy scrutiny has not yet occured, I'm too tired

Oh yeah,

It is simply silly not to wear a Brown Scapular. It is amazing though how little it is generally talked about. Most Non-Catholics know nothing about it.

Purgatory. Well, The Bible was closed after the first Generation of Apostles. No one had yet died and so how was anybody to know about Purgatory? Purgatory was something that was discerned from experience. Saints came back and said "Whoa, everybody! Its better to Purify yourself now, while you are alive, then to wait for later!" And gave them the details of Purgatory. It wasn't written in the Bible because it was taught. For the first 14 Centuries of the Church there was no printing press. We had Oral Tradition. The Important Things were said over and over again. Like The Creation Story --have you ever realized that The Creation Story in regards to The Fall of Lucifer and the Angelic Rebellion are not in the Bible. They are referred to, often enough, but the Story itself has been handed down through Hebrew and then Christain Tradition.

No, the Prots use the "Scripture Only" ploy in order to cut themselves off from Teachings that contradict Paul. And by lifting the Bible from the Status of Reference Material to A GOD THING that they Worship -- they can place Paul on the Same Level as Christ. the logic goes like this : All Scripture is the Word of God; Paul is in Scripture; therefore, Paul is the Word of God. Well, that is logical enough as long as you go along with the premise that a dusty Reference Material is A GOD THING -- an Idol to be Worshipped -- but using common sense one would have to think that there is a qualitative difference between the Words of Christ and the words of Paul, who has to defend himself in every other page against accusations that he is a liar and a fraud.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Oct. 12 2003,2:00)]

Quote[/b] ]Also, the Protestants have been effectively cut off from Grace.  Our Lady will appear to the Greek Orthodox branch of the Catholic Church, as well as the Coptic Branch.  But She does not recognize the Church of Paul --the Church that insults the Eucharist, Herself, and the Saints.

Please back this up scripturally.  And I mean the Word of God, not something a pope said or wrote.



Cory

Don't have to back it up with Scripture.

the Scripture is a seventeen hundred year old reference material published by the Catholic Church for the Catholic Church. It was never meant to be worshipped as an idol.

What I am presently talking about is Current Revelation. You remember how when the Jews had a Living Religion they had Prophets and such. Well, Catholics have a Living Religion -- not perfect, but alive -- and so we have Prophets and such. Now, there is Scripture that says that in the End times the Old Men would Prophecize and that the Children would see Visions. Well, this is happening. I am an Old Man and I am giving Prophecy; and Our Lady has mostly Appeared to Children in Her Apparitions. You may look it up.

 

[CCGR]

Jesus preached on Heaven and Hell. He talked more about hell though. What would be the big deal if there was a place of second chance. It's not Biblical or Jesus would have surely mentioned it. After all, he is the way to heaven, not of works, lest any man should boast....

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 12 2003,7:00)]Jesus preached on Heaven and Hell.  He talked more about hell though.  What would be the big deal if there was a place of second chance.  It's not Biblical or Jesus would have surely mentioned it.  After all, he is the way to heaven, not of works, lest any man should boast....

Dear CCGR,

You know, for all of anyone's blustering about who will go to Hell, it is really up to Christ the Judge.

There is one Prophecy, made by a certain Philip Kramer (My Brief Experience in Eternity and What I Saw, by Philip Kramer). It details the Day of Judgment. The way it goes is that Our Lord Jesus Christ was originally happy with a select few Righteous Saints and raises them up and departs toward Heaven leaving the overwhelming majority of Mankind on the plain of Josephat awaiting their damnation. The Demons and Dragons of Hell are already attacking out of the West when Our Blessed Lady appears in the East and calls back Our Lord from beyond the Clouds. In a very organized manner she appeals to Christ, first for one class of individuals that She thinks deserves Mercy for various specific reasons, ... and than another, and another and another. Finally, there is left only the Worse Sinners, and Mary even pleads for them. But Christ determines that He must draw the line somewhere and decides that THE WORST HALF SHOULD BE DAMNED.

But, I am not convinced that the Day of Judgment is yet entirely fixed. Many Visionaries indicate that Our Lady is still asking for penance and prayers so that even Hell itself may be shown Mercy and be totally emptied. Personally I wonder that some souls are not too reprehensibly evil to be shown such Mercy. However, I also suspect that the sufferings in Hell and Purgatory, even if temporary and short lived, may go a long way in purifying the worst sinners of their cruelty, pride and selfishness.

But... in a few thousand years when the pain has finally been forgotten, won't their arrogance and selfishness slowly return. Then we will have a Heaven where these assholes will climb up over us and make us all get jobs, and pay us minimum wage while they move us into ghettos so they can build themselves huge mansions, etc, etc. Maybe it would just be better to let them all roast in Hell forever.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

He merely requested Scriptural back-up, not for all here to revere the Scriptures. Will you comply?

As for the sins of Lucifer, Leo, I believe they are pride and pride, or prideful unremorse for the latter.

So you're going to determine your eternity by one man's supposed vision of the endtimes? If I did that, geez, man, I would be following after every doctrine of New Age bogusity, and bowing before every sphere of reality. But I don't. Why, may I ask, do you? A vision sounds really nice a lot of the time, but more than a little of the time, it's bogusity. A vision of the endtimes? Jesus only takes a few obedient? That's unbiblical (anti-Catholic and therefore anti-truth, then, since the Catholics compiled this "study guide" according to you) with what Jesus himself says that no man can save himself by acts, and Paul backs up this Jesus (rather than contradicting and outrightly opposing him) by agreeing that indeed, as an old theologian and Jew to the core, no man is saved by actions, but merely by grace.

And in all my readings of Paul, he has never blasphemed Jesus Christ. If you would, provide contrasting passages 'twixt the two, and maybe I'll lend an ear, but so far, all you've provided for me is conjecture on the issue that Paul was a false prophet, a liar, a blasphemer, et cetera.

 

[Thaddius]

Ultima,

He cannot comply. There is no scripture to back it up. He claims that he is a prophet bringing prophecy to the world. I have one name for him...Joseph Smith. He is really no different. After some of the statements he's already made, its going to be hard for him to bring anything to the table that I will think is even remotely beleiveable.


As for the stuff on Paul, by the statements he makes, he puts the Catholic church in a catch 22. If he's right, then the Catholic church has decieved the world for almost 2000 years. If he is wrong, then he is taking the word of a man(the pope) over the Word of God. Which condemnation would he rather have? (FYI I don't think he's right)


Cory

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Oct. 11 2003,11:05)]...Paul's the Antichrist? OHMYGOSH! ADELPIT! ADELPIT! HERETIC HERETIC HERETIC!
Just kidding. Why do you say Paul's the Antichrist? And why? And how does that fit at all with John's Revelation of Jesus Christ of exactly WHAT the Antichrist would do before being, you know, the Antichrist. Paul was kinda dead about the time John said those words, FYI, so if John's words are "faithful and true" then Paul is not the Antichrist.
So if you don't mind...why's Paul Antichrist?

And here's a question: I say Mary wasn't a virgin all her life. Tuh-tuh-tuhhhh. Is my salvation torn up and thrown into the four winds b/c Jesus is so upset about that? Or is it that the Catholic Church would be so upset about it IF they cared that they would take the task of personal redemption off Christ's hands and refute my salvation?

And I don't see how Paul insulted the Eucharist at all. Ever. In all of his letters. Or Mary. Or the saints. Or God. Or heaven. Or Jesus. Or hell. Or Satan.

And why would it matter if Holy Mary Mother Of God appeared to the Church or not? I mean, that's not like the penultimate of entering heaven. Really, she's secondary, possibly even inconsequential in the scheme of things. She is not the key to salvation. I'm quite certain that another one 'full of grace' would have been found substitute for Mary in a New York minute if God had felt like it. But it was Mary who was chosen to be the vessel of God, and after that, James and who knows who else?

Heaven's not revolving around Mary. Truly, she's nothing in the big picture. It would be God. Mary's not gonna wipe away my tears. That's left up to the Almighty. She is another just like us. Perhaps she's a saint. Hey, maybe she never believed in the Savior and died a Jew to the core, and so she's NOT in heaven. Just a question...Mary's history and becomings are never really expounded on all that much.

So why the undue homage?

Of course Paul blasphemed the Eucharist.  In Corinthians, First Cor 11, Paul says that those who don't "discern" the Body will be cursed with illness.  Ostensively it looks like he is defending the Eucharist, but this Paulian Doctrine has had two major effects -- 1) That People are afraid to take the Eucharist.  Heretical Cults have built up around this Fear.  Anyone found in even the slightest venial sin after taking the Eucharist would be killed.  2) Paul makes it seem like the Eucharist depends entirely on what People think ('discern') about it.  But Christ taught that it was The Food of His Body and Blood.  Nothing to 'discern' -- it is what it is. Paul turned it into a subjective questionmark -- a poison for those who didn't have a perfect Faith, and apparently unessential for all the rest, since they would be saved by their Faith Alone anyway.

Paul is the Antichrist because he leads the Sheep away from the Ways of Righteousness.  Faith Alone is a Satanic Seduction.  Also, when Paul wrote to the Romans that God authorizes State Authority, he would torpedo any hope for a Kingdom of God by justifying every petty baron, king or bureaucrat into saying that Paul says they have Authority over The Church.  

Then their is Paul on Election and Predestination. That was a support argument for his Faith Alone Doctrine.  Since God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, then He has already picked His Chosen Ones.  The performance of any good work would only be an insult to God who has already made his choices.  You would know who the Elect are, because they would be the ones kissing Paul's ass.  Once saved always saved.  If you were a dues paying member of one of Paul's churches you could sin all you want.  Paul was handing out open season tickets on every sin and debauchary.  That is why he is the
Antichrist.

Also, he was Anti-semitic.  His influence effectively destroyed what had been the nucleus of the Original Church.  Christ had intended that the Gentiles be invited into the Judaic Tradition, not that the gentile dogs jump up on the table and steal the feast and run off with it.

Part of it is Peter's fault.  In Acts we find Peter saying that "as long as Paul's parishes pay their dues, Paul can say anything he wants".  Stupid fisherman!  No wonder Christ had once said to Peter, "Get behind me Satan, for you have no idea of Heavenly things but only care about the things of the world".  

You would know more about Mary if you were to listen to anything She has been telling us for the last couple hundred years.  Even the Bible shows us Angels singing Her Praises.  Have they done so for anybody else?  but here you are claiming to be so much better than She.  And why?  What have you done to place you so much above The Blessed Virgin.  Oh, I can guess.  In your present state of affairs you probably resent that so much honor goes to a "virgin".  

Mary was made Queen of Heaven and has been delegated to bestow all Grace.  Satan know this, and therefore his tenacious campaign to have all you Prots ignore her.  You ignore Mary -- you ignore Divine Grace.  He loves it.   You have it in Scripture.  Christ would sit on the Right Hand of God and He said He would send a Comforter.  Well, He sent His Own Mother.  In Apparition She almost single handedly Converted Roman Europe.  She was appearing everywhere -- "Build a Chapel for me Here", "Build a Chapel for Me there".  Why do you think that She became so Famous, if She had not been out in front doing everything.  And She did all this within extremely Patriarchal Societies.  For every Bishop that was for Her, there were three or four that grumbled exactly the way you do.  But they weren't Appearing everywhere directing all the Action, as She did, as She still does.

Okay, I like how you tempt fate.  "Mary won't wipe away your tears".  Read the Bible!  (Not Paul)  Christ will be Judge.  Christ will have no problem uprooting the 'tares' and throwing them in the Oven.  So who will be your Advocate?  When Christ accuses you of your every sin since Baptism, who will defend you?  but you have already told The Mother of God to get lost!  

At the Crucifixion when Christ gave John The disciple He Loved to Mary His Mother, and His Mother to John the Disciple He Loved, what is it that you think was happening?  Well, it was a personal arrangement -- since Mary had no other children She would need someone to look after Her.  But, remember, He also gave John to Her.  Did he need Her Help?  Yes!  Keep in mind, that John was the only one of Hundreds of Apostles and Disciples that bothered to show up at the Crucifixion -- the rest were hiding in the most cowardly fashion.  Only Love can transcend Fear.  John was Standing In for all those who Loved Jesus.  Jesus gave Them His Mother.  But yes, he was certainly not including you!

 

[Medjai]

It appears that Adelpit is stumped, I find it hillarious that Leo accomplished it so easily. Kudos for that Leo!

Of course I am sure he will find the answer eventually through the use of Google, but he should have known this off the top of his head, being divinely inspired and all. So, it appears he is "silly" as Leo put it.

CGGR wrote, "
Please back this up scripturally. And I mean the Word of God, not something a pope said or wrote."

Considering that many Catholics believe the word of the Pope to be divine, it is entirely fair for him to use the Pope's words when speaking of his beliefs.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Oct. 12 2003,9:20)]It appears that Adelpit is stumped, I find it hillarious that Leo accomplished it so easily. Kudos for that Leo!

Of course I am sure he will find the answer eventually through the use of Google, but he should have known this off the top of his head, being divinely inspired and all. So, it appears he is "silly" as Leo put it.

CGGR wrote, "
Please back this up scripturally. And I mean the Word of God, not something a pope said or wrote."

Considering that many Catholics believe the word of the Pope to be divine, it is entirely fair for him to use the Pope's words when speaking of his beliefs.

Good point, Medjai. I guess this would bring about a debate over the authority of the pope =D

I have a question, Leo, just out of curiosity. Has Mary ever appeared to you, or have you ever seen any of the places she has performed miracles, such as Fatima or that bank in Florida?

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Sorry I can't post today, Leo, but you brought up some excellent points and I'll answer them as best I can a la manana.
And yeah, I do kinda tempt fate. My surname is Knoxville. Ha.......ha.

 

[CCGR]

I didn't say anything like that Medjai

Anyways regarding Mary I do have high respect for her, she was indeed very blessed and honored to carry Jesus into this world. Not an easy task having to explain her pregnancy to her furture husband and to watch his horrible and death at an early age. But still a godly woman to follow through God's bidding for her life.

Still I don't pray to her, through her, for her. Yes I believe she is in heaven but not goddess/queen status. She is a human yet blessed. It just the same as lifting up the disciples for having the honor of chumming with Jesus in his earthly reign. As humans we all sin except for Jesus. The Catholic doctrine I was brought up to believe that Mary was sinless, this contradicts the Bible ina few ways. If she was Jesus was not special, and plus the Bible mentions her making a sin offering.

Basically we respect her, but don't exault her as much as Catholics in general do. We don't sing about her, pray to/about her either.

We get into heaven by admitting we're sinners, accepting that Jesus died for us, rose from the dead and confess he's our Lord and savior.

We don't get to heaven by our earthly resumes, we can't impress God. We're not worthy of his pressence but through Jesus we are clean.

I don't need Mary's tears or mercy...just Jesus

remember I don't want to attack or be offensive just trying to strike common ground. we're not dissing Mary but we're not worshipping her either. Jesus and the Bible, that's us in a nutshell.

Agree on the Majors, tolerance on the minors, in all things Love

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Oct. 12 2003,8:20)]It appears that Adelpit is stumped, I find it hillarious that Leo accomplished it so easily. Kudos for that Leo!

Of course I am sure he will find the answer eventually through the use of Google, but he should have known this off the top of his head, being divinely inspired and all. So, it appears he is "silly" as Leo put it.

CGGR wrote, "
Please back this up scripturally.  And I mean the Word of God, not something a pope said or wrote."

Considering that many Catholics believe the word of the Pope to be divine, it is entirely fair for him to use the Pope's words when speaking of his beliefs.

Well........ I think it was a big mistake to Promulgate the Doctrine of Infallibility. What Christ said was that the Church would last until the End. Christ did not say that it would drive up to the End in a Big Perfect Shiny Rolls Royce and Never Be Wrong About Anything -- Christ only said that it would get there. And the Church will "get there" even if it is with just three guys who are wrong about half the things they say -- as long as they are right about the other half.

No, I put all my stock in the Recent Revelations. The Prots ignore all that, but to the Catholic who keeps his ear to the ground THIS IS THE AGE OF MIRACLES. Mark my words that in the Next Ten Years we will see Two Prophets as Great as Elijah. And at every Site where Our Lady the Blessed Virgin has appeared -- at every Shrine -- a Divine Sign will appear which will be Proof of God. And these Signs will leave a Residue which will constitute a permanent and physical proof, so the Atheist won't be able to dismiss it all as having been a World Wide Delusion.

The Ironic thing will be that many Atheists will continue to go down fighting. For them it isn't about The Truth, and never has been. For them it has been a Fight of the Individual against the Collective. Atheists are Individuals. God is the Collector of the Collective. Some people just can't stand the idea of One Big Happy Family. They want a World with Napoleons and Caesars and Bill Gates. In their stunted tiny beings they think they can be Conquering Heroes. They were picked on when they were kids and never got over it. But, yes, even after everyone knows to an absolute certainty that there is a God, there will still be a hard core circle of Atheists. Which poses an interesting question. How many here would still be an Atheist?