Christiians shouldn't be playings cs...

[Rithkil]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Dec. 15 2004,12:02)]

*sniff* *sniff* That was DV's last post.  I was thinking that one got him murdered.

??

 

[SLNT_FIR]

yeah what do you mean

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i agree with uracorpse



OH MY GOSH! DV, YOU'RE BAK!

Anyway, thx for the posts.

 

[rizz]

I only just came back to this thread. I hate coming in here, its so full of hot air.. BUt i felt the need to justify my article..

Quote[/b] ]In his article, Rizz states, "People have an outdated idea of what is acceptable as a Christian". If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, shouldn't the standards of a Christian remain the same? Aren't the rules and expectations of Christians the same now as in the days of Christ?

Rizz also states that, "The objective is to play it with the right motivation and to have the right heart at all times when playing it". What is the RIGHT motivation for killing someone in CS? How is this an acceptable, glorifying action to God?

1. Misinterpretation... The emphasis there is on what peopel see as christian ideals and practice. It has nothing to do with standards. there are no standards dropped to play a computer game. As i stated. If a person feels that it conflicts with their spirit then they should play. That applies to /everything/ whether controversial or not.

2. Again misinterpretation. If you actually read it instead of trying to find something to twist you would see the motivation behind us (toj/cga as a whole) is to use the games and the internet as a means to spread the gospel of christ. We can communicate that through our community and doing something we enjoy. People use anything to bring people into a place of reciept of the message of christ. I have seen so many weird and wonderful outreaches in my time. why is CS different?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hot air. Lovely.

Would you mind addressing my questions? How is killing people virtually, glorifying God? True, it's just a game, but I don't think you'd hesitate to denounce a porn game now would you? What is the difference between killing and liscivious acts if it's confined to a video game?

How are you using Counter Strike as an outreach? Is it an effective tool to gain converts to Christianity? If so, how? I'm genuinely intrigued.

Rizz, I'd appreciate you keeping this discussion above the muck and mire. I was not distorting anything in your article, I'm simply asking for clarification, there's no need for insidious quips.

 

[MaxX]

Personally, I don't see it as "killing in your mind", it is simply competition, like paintball or wrestling. It may seem illogical, yes in the game the people do "die", but then they respawn. When does that happen in real life? My point being that you can't define games as anything real.

As for porn games, the act of actually lusting after porn is a sin. Same thing with swearing, even if you swear in a game, it's still swearing.

 

[URACorpse]

I'd like to attempt to answer at least some of Dark Virtue's questions.

1. This isn't real killing. Read my post above for my thoughts on it. Yes, you can say virtual killing but the fact is it isn't real; it is a game that should be played without anger, or any wrongful intent. It is just fun for some to play games that require some skill. Does it glorify God? When we show Christian love and brother / sisterhood, then I say yes it does. If, on the other hand, the game hinders your relationship with Jesus, then I have to say that it shouldn't have a place in your life. But the fact is CS, in my opinion, is good clean fun.

2. Your comparison to a porn game, well, I am surprised at the comparison. To me it is obvious that such a game is wrong simply because it causes real lust and sin, even if only in the heart of the person taking part in such a game.

3. CS as an outreach. As Christians we can have fun. On TOJ servers the admins attempt to maintain a high standard of conduct. They do a good job of keeping it clean and a fun place where I don't mind my kids playing. When a non believer plays on these servers, hopefully they will see that those of us with the TOJ tag on our names are different in our attitudes and our social interactions with each other. That we lift each other up and have a good time in a game is a positive example of Christian living.

4. Is it an effective tool to gain converts? I don't know but I hope so. As a Christian, I know that I will account for my life before God. This includes how I have conducted myself online and in CS. At the very least, I believe that we sew the seed of the Gospel and of Jesus' love.

 

[FIR3]

Im Catholic and I play Doom II and have athiest friends and watch horror movies.....CS is nothing compared to some of the stuff Ive seen.

 

[rizz]

Quote[/b] ]Would you mind addressing my questions? How is killing people virtually, glorifying God? True, it's just a game, but I don't think you'd hesitate to denounce a porn game now would you? What is the difference between killing and liscivious acts if it's confined to a video game?

Well there is a distinction between holding a real gun and shooting someone to pressing a key. I would never kill another human being and have been flamed (even in here) for saying that. Not in war, not in self defence. When we are instructed to turn the other cheek when struck... It was literal.
Porn is porn. It is an image you look at. In such it transcends the media it is presented on. If its a spray in CS then its still porn. The same with cursing... You cant say.. well its only digital cursing... Its still the same thing and still ahs the same motivation behind it. There is no comparison between the two.

This is my last post in here. I turst my fellow members will continue the debate.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (URACorpse @ Dec. 17 2004,8:45)]

Quote[/b] ]I'd like to attempt to answer at least some of Dark Virtue's questions.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Quote[/b] ]1. This isn't real killing. Read my post above for my thoughts on it. Yes, you can say virtual killing but the fact is it isn't real; it is a game that should be played without anger, or any wrongful intent. It is just fun for some to play games that require some skill. Does it glorify God? When we show Christian love and brother / sisterhood, then I say yes it does. If, on the other hand, the game hinders your relationship with Jesus, then I have to say that it shouldn't have a place in your life. But the fact is CS, in my opinion, is good clean fun.

It's a very fine line that is walked when you say that a game such as CS shouldn't be played in anger or with any wrongful intent. I'm assuming you don't play this game stoicly, as a robot without emotion. You get worked up, the adrenalin gets pumping and you get pulled into the game...isn't that the whole point of a video game? How does one separate wrongful with "right" intent in a game that revolves around KILLING your competition? Once again I ask you point blank, how does playing a game that revolves around KILLING show Christian love and brotherhood? Every response so far has skirted this issue. Someone, anyone, please address it. I just find it hard that a Christian can define a game as "good, clean fun" that has killing at its core.

Quote[/b] ]2. Your comparison to a porn game, well, I am surprised at the comparison. To me it is obvious that such a game is wrong simply because it causes real lust and sin, even if only in the heart of the person taking part in such a game.

That's my point. Playing a game, ANY game, creates thoughts and feelings. If the mere thought of lust is a sin, why is the mere thought of killing NOT a sin? You're not lusting after a real woman, she's VIRTUAL! That's exactly the same defense you're using to justify killing in a game.

Quote[/b] ]3. CS as an outreach. As Christians we can have fun. On TOJ servers the admins attempt to maintain a high standard of conduct. They do a good job of keeping it clean and a fun place where I don't mind my kids playing. When a non believer plays on these servers, hopefully they will see that those of us with the TOJ tag on our names are different in our attitudes and our social interactions with each other. That we lift each other up and have a good time in a game is a positive example of Christian living.

There are PLENTY of other servers that offer the same gamer friendly environment as a TOJ server. So how is a Christian server different from a secular server that offers the same high standards of gameplay?

Quote[/b] ]4. Is it an effective tool to gain converts? I don't know but I hope so. As a Christian, I know that I will account for my life before God. This includes how I have conducted myself online and in CS. At the very least, I believe that we sew the seed of the Gospel and of Jesus' love.

Unfortunately, the question I asked was HOW are you sowing the seeds of the Gospel of Jesus' love within a game whose only purpose is to kill others?

I know I asked this before and it may have seemed silly, but do you really think that Jesus would enjoy a rousing game of Counter Strike? If every Christian strives to be like Christ, can you really picture him behind a keyboard controlling a Terrorist with an AWP in his hands? JESUS PWNS J00!

What do you think Christ meant when he told his followers to be IN the world, but not OF the world? Do you think that has an application here?

(As an aside, what is the TOJ server for CS? All I've seen is the 7F server and no one is ever on there.)

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (FIR3 @ Dec. 17 2004,8:54)]Im Catholic and I play Doom II and have athiest friends and watch horror movies.....CS is nothing compared to some of the stuff Ive seen.

Well being Catholic is another matter entirely, since there are(were) members of this board that don't(didn't) consider Catholics as being Christian anyway.

 

[l33tben]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Dec. 03 2004,11:34)]I have noticed on our server, people ask us, "shouldn't chrisitans NOT be playing cs? it's killing people..."

I can't really explain... I would like for someone to help me out. I cannot really understand how i feel about it... I KNOW how i feel, but i cannot really fullly understand how to express... x.x >_< X|

yes it is just a game...people need to get over it..its just a file with some pixels is all it isnt a game thats making us unholy

 

[URACorpse]

For my part, I don't get so engrossed in a game that I want to kill. Maybe I know the difference because I have a more personal exposure to death and killing than most. I understand the difference between "killing" in CS and really killing. Believe me, CS is not killing.

However, according to the Bible in Mt 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (NIV). This tells us that we can commit adultery in our hearts, not just physically. So I would say that it doesn't matter if the woman is virtual or real, it is what is in our hearts that count.

I've played on plenty of other servers and have yet to find one, outside of other Christian servers, that offer the same environment as the TOJ server. The reason for that is that they can't offer the same environment because they aren't Christian in their beliefs.

You are right. We live IN the world, not OF the world. It does have an application here. That is why I can play CS without the thoughts and feelings that you refer to. I play without anger or hatred. I play for fun and for the relationships I get to build with others of similar interest. If I was unable to play without getting angry, unable to maintain the attitude that I should, or allow a game to come between me and my relationship with Christ, then it is time to remove it from my life. It is because of Jesus that my attitude when playing is one without anger or other negative emotions. That is not to say that I don't sometimes get frustrated at myself. But that frustration is not long lived or directed at others. Simply my own lack of skill sometimes.

If you, or anyone, can't play a game without getting angry, or you are unable to tell the difference between playing a game and killing, then you need to step back and determine if you are going down a path that you really need to be going. I mean, if you can't tell the difference between what should be in your heart and what shouldn't, then you need to find some real answers to life. Not just about little things like a game. But like what direction is you life taking. What goals are you accomplishing and for who are you accomplishing them for?

Would Jesus play CS? I don't know to be honest. Did he ever play games at all? Again, I don't have the answers. But I do know that so long as CS doesn't interfere in my relationship with Jesus, there is nothing wrong with me playing it.

Where you said, "Unfortunately, the question I asked was HOW are you sowing the seeds of the Gospel of Jesus' love within a game whose only purpose is to kill others?" All I can respond to this is that you will never understand unless you accept my point that CS is not killing and therefore that is not it's only purpose.

TOJ CS servers are: Main server: 69.44.156.72:27015
                           Custom server: toj.cga.game-server.cc:27015

 

[MaxX]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Dec. 17 2004,10:42)](As an aside, what is the TOJ server for CS? All I've seen is the 7F server and no one is ever on there.)

69.44.156.72:27015 main server
tojcga.game-server.cc:27015 custom server

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]However, according to the Bible in Mt 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (NIV). This tells us that we can commit adultery in our hearts, not just physically. So I would say that it doesn't matter if the woman is virtual or real, it is what is in our hearts that count.

Bingo! And that, my friend, is my point. Look at 1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." The thinking, the very thought of it is what matters, it equates to physical sin. That is why I compare killing in a video game to lust. It's the thought processes involved.

Quote[/b] ]Where you said, "Unfortunately, the question I asked was HOW are you sowing the seeds of the Gospel of Jesus' love within a game whose only purpose is to kill others?" All I can respond to this is that you will never understand unless you accept my point that CS is not killing and therefore that is not it's only purpose.

Why don't you TRY and explain it? I apologize about being obstinate, but why can't someone simply answer the question? How does playing a game like CounterStrike allow you to sow the seeds of Christianity, of Christian Love? How can you play a game like this in Godly spirit? How do you glorify God by putting a Counter Terrorist in your sights, pushing your mouse button and having his virtual brains splattered on the wall behind him?

BTW, thanks for the server info!

 

[URACorpse]

- How are we sowing the seeds of the Gospel of Jesus' love?

In one move my earlier posts I said, "When a non believer plays on these servers, hopefully they will see that those of us with the TOJ tag on our names are different in our attitudes and our social interactions with each other. That we lift each other up and have a good time in a game is a positive example of Christian living."

It is what we have in our hearts, how we treat others, and how we show our love for one another that sow the seed. This is what sets us apart from non Christians; the love of Jesus in our hearts and minds.

- How can I play it in a Godly spirit?

To me, playing CS with friends is no different than going to a movie with them, bowling with friends, or even just talking. Of course there are some that believe all movies are wrong but that is for another thread I think. The point is, there is no feeling or thought of killing or murder in me when I play. The fact that I have Jesus in my heart is why I am this way.

- "How do you glorify God by putting a Counter Terrorist in your sights, pushing your mouse button and having his virtual brains splattered on the wall behind him?"

You have to accept that this is no more than a game. It is not killing. It is simply friendly competition and a test of skill. If your attitude in playing is anymore than that, then you need to rethink your reason for playing.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]- How are we sowing the seeds of the Gospel of Jesus' love?

In one move my earlier posts I said, "When a non believer plays on these servers, hopefully they will see that those of us with the TOJ tag on our names are different in our attitudes and our social interactions with each other. That we lift each other up and have a good time in a game is a positive example of Christian living."

Nice premise, but most GOOD clans do this. You don't have to be a Christian to play with a good attitude, no swearing, positive gameplay etc.

Quote[/b] ]It is what we have in our hearts, how we treat others, and how we show our love for one another that sow the seed. This is what sets us apart from non Christians; the love of Jesus in our hearts and minds.

My question, from the beginning, is how this love of Jesus in your hearts and minds comes across when you're playing a violent video game like Counter Strike? Because, up until this point, playing in a nice, structured environment has not set a Christian gamer apart from a non-Christian gamer. Unless, of course, you're trying to argue that the majority of non-Christian gamers swear, cheat, etc. in the game.

Quote[/b] ]- How can I play it in a Godly spirit?

To me, playing CS with friends is no different than going to a movie with them, bowling with friends, or even just talking. Of course there are some that believe all movies are wrong but that is for another thread I think. The point is, there is no feeling or thought of killing or murder in me when I play. The fact that I have Jesus in my heart is why I am this way.

There has to be SOME thought of killing or murder when you play a game that revolves around KILLING. You're not shooting at clay targets or metal outlines...you're firing at representatives of human beings, and you're not trying to wound them, but to put them out of commission, to KILL them. Is this really an example of a Godly spirit? Shouldn't a Christian, who holds themselves to a higher moral standard than most, eschew games such as this?

Quote[/b] ]- "How do you glorify God by putting a Counter Terrorist in your sights, pushing your mouse button and having his virtual brains splattered on the wall behind him?"

You have to accept that this is no more than a game. It is not killing. It is simply friendly competition and a test of skill. If your attitude in playing is anymore than that, then you need to rethink your reason for playing.

I understand that this is just a game, my question is, is this game APPROPRIATE for a Christian, and HOW is playing a violent video game glorifying God? How does one glorify God by sniping someone from across the map? How does one glorify God by putting a .50 caliber bullet into someone's skull? Granted, this is all "virtual", but then that begs the question, if it's not real, then how can it glorify God? And aren't Christians supposed to glorify God in EVERYTHING they do?

I would be interested in your take on a game called Manhunt that was put out by Rockstar Games. The entire premise of the game is to kill...not only to kill, but to do so with "style". According to what you've said so far in this thread this game would be acceptable since there is no "real" killing taking place, and the game is a test of your skills. Right?

What about Thief? This is what one CCGR reviewer had to say about it: "From a Christian perspective, let me put it this way. You are breaking 2 commandments. Thou shall not steal, and thou shall not kill. Need I say more? On a good note, I didn't notice any foul language." Are you REALLY breaking those commandments, or can you simply disregard them since it's a virtual setting.

I would also like to know what games SHOULD be offensive to Christians? What is the line that is drawn in the sand? What is acceptable and what isn't?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Well, i didn't read all your horrifilingly long posts... lol, jk. ^_^ (i really didn't, but i didn't mean horrifingly lol)
I think that this is one of the gray areas that are kind of weird... I agree with wat Rizz said. DV, you are an AWFUL LOT like one of my athiest "Friends". He is ALOT like you and you are ALOT like him. It's kind of freaky, but you two are alot alike... maybe you should e-mail him. maybe not. anyway, i would feel that we should not be ENCOURAGED to just play for the sake of the game, but it is NOT BAD. but iit is preferable that we do not. SLIGHTLY preferable. but this is trying to find a fine line in the gray area w/ fog. it's real hard to find why. i just wanted to get a feel for this topic.

if u guys wanna keep talking, b my guest.... (btw, i did not answer anyone's questions... i think)

Have a nice day!

 

[URACorpse]

I think the problem here is perspective. You ask can a Christian play a particular game or not. The truth is games don't matter. I am free to play any game I choose. Whether or not it is the type of game I should play is ultimately between me and God. You can debate that CS is centered around killing. I don't know you but I will assume that you have not been in a position to kill. Lets also assume you haven't really been exposed to the type of death where a persons brains are literally laying on the ground. If this is true, how can you say CS is like killing, even just virtually? For me, as one who has seen "grey matter" on the ground and has been in the position to kill, I say CS has nothing in common with killing.

DV, you are obviously an intelligent person. You have a good knowledge of the Bible but do you truly understand God's word? I don't think so. I believe you like to look through it and use it to ignite debate. I'm not saying that this is always bad. In fact, you seem to be a bit like me when I was younger. The truth is, if you truly want to understand your questions, not just in this thread but in others, you need to ask God to give you the understanding. I say this because to understand what it means to be a Christian is to actually be one. To understand what it means to have Jesus' love in your heart is to know Him as your Savior. I'm not saying Christians don't do wrong. I sin daily. The difference is that I daily talk to God and get closer to Him. As a result, I get further from the things I use to do and closer to Him.

I've been an instructor for several years. I usually know how to get a point across and I also can usually tell when someone is just trying to push questions until they get the answer they want to hear, not necessarily the correct one.

When you get down to it, a game isn't important. It is possible that it is a sin for you to play it but not for me. But, the thing that is important is that you accept Jesus as your Savior. By doing this you will be able to know, among other things, if playing CS, or any other game, is a sin for you or not.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (URACorpse @ Dec. 19 2004,11:56)]

Quote[/b] ]I think the problem here is perspective. You ask can a Christian play a particular game or not. The truth is games don't matter. I am free to play any game I choose. Whether or not it is the type of game I should play is ultimately between me and God.

And that is precisely why I asked about games that involved things such as pornography. If a pornographic game is still a game, why should it be considered differently?

Quote[/b] ]You can debate that CS is centered around killing. I don't know you but I will assume that you have not been in a position to kill. Lets also assume you haven't really been exposed to the type of death where a persons brains are literally laying on the ground. If this is true, how can you say CS is like killing, even just virtually? For me, as one who has seen "grey matter" on the ground and has been in the position to kill, I say CS has nothing in common with killing.

If CounterStrike doesn't revolve around killing, then what is the game all about? Is it possible to play the game WITHOUT killing anyone?

Quote[/b] ]DV, you are obviously an intelligent person. You have a good knowledge of the Bible but do you truly understand God's word? I don't think so.

And you base my lack of understanding on what?

Quote[/b] ]I believe you like to look through it and use it to ignite debate. I'm not saying that this is always bad. In fact, you seem to be a bit like me when I was younger.

I merely question the book that Christianity uses as its foundation. If Christians can't unite in a singular understanding of the Bible, do you really expect nonChristians to be able to?

Quote[/b] ]The truth is, if you truly want to understand your questions, not just in this thread but in others, you need to ask God to give you the understanding.

Sorry, but I hate this answer with a passion. I've brought this up before, but I'll say it again for your benefit. The Bible should be clear enough to understand by simply reading it, but it is not. If God is not the author of confusion, then why is His one and only book so confusing to understand? Again, look at it within the confines of Christianity. How many different interpretations to Christians have over this ONE book? I don't believe I, or anyone else, needs to be endowed with some magic substance to peer through an invisible barrier of confusion to fully understand the Bible. It's right there in black and white.

Quote[/b] ]I say this because to understand what it means to be a Christian is to actually be one. To understand what it means to have Jesus' love in your heart is to know Him as your Savior. I'm not saying Christians don't do wrong. I sin daily. The difference is that I daily talk to God and get closer to Him. As a result, I get further from the things I use to do and closer to Him.

Like many Atheists, I was once a devout Christian. I DO understand, whether you like to believe that or not, exactly what Christianity entails. In fact, I can honestly say that I understand it more than most Christians that never question their beliefs, which is precisely why I am where I am today.

Quote[/b] ]I've been an instructor for several years. I usually know how to get a point across and I also can usually tell when someone is just trying to push questions until they get the answer they want to hear, not necessarily the correct one.

And...what exactly are you trying to say? If you're going to point fingers and make accusations, just do it, no need to be shy.

Quote[/b] ]When you get down to it, a game isn't important. It is possible that it is a sin for you to play it but not for me. But, the thing that is important is that you accept Jesus as your Savior. By doing this you will be able to know, among other things, if playing CS, or any other game, is a sin for you or not.

Now we're getting to the meat and potatoes of this topic. Do Christians have ONE set of guidelines set forth by God and Christ, or many more ambiguous ones that are determined by each individual? Are the ten commandments meant to encompass all Christians or can you pick and choose which ones to follow and which ones to discard? Are Christian rules, values and ideals black and white or are there numerous shades of gray?

We're three pages into this discussion and my main question has yet to be answered. To quote myself, "I understand that this is just a game, my question is, is this game APPROPRIATE for a Christian, and HOW is playing a violent video game glorifying God? How does one glorify God by sniping someone from across the map? How does one glorify God by putting a .50 caliber bullet into someone's skull? Granted, this is all "virtual", but then that begs the question, if it's not real, then how can it glorify God? And aren't Christians supposed to glorify God in EVERYTHING they do?" Would someone please mind addressing this point?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

DV, I don't think that you understand the way we act. Even though we are not RESTRICTED from playing certain games, I think that both of you are right. CS, is "killing based" but it has signifigant restrictions on the violence / blood. i put on the content lock, and nothing is much different. no blood. there wasn't much to start with. And yes, i don't think playing cs is NOT the best way to use our time... check out pilgrim's post. so, i believe that i am not really SUPPOSED to play cs, but again, my parents limit me severely, compared to everyone. 1-2 hours a day... and sometimes not at all...

i am KIND of glad for that...

talking about your questions, all commandments apply to everyone. and yes, we are imperfect. however, that does not mean that we do whatever we please since we cannot be perfect...

i'll wait for you to post more... i know i haven't answered ALL your questions... but i answered AT LEAST 1 i know that...

btw, where were you? you were gone for quite a bit. and this forum was a bit dead...