Doom III & Satanic Symbols

[amorphus88]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 13 2004,4:20)]At no point in the game does it infer or imply that the "hell" in the game is the hell of the Christian Bible.  There are no refernces anywhere about Satan or fallen angels.  The term "hell" used in the game is merely descriptive.  Ask a Vietnam veteran what war was like in the jungle and I'm sure the term "hell" would come up.  Does that mean he's referring to the hell of the bible?  Of course not, it's descriptive.  Not to give too much away for those that are going to play the game, but the creatures in the game are "aliens", with a high tolerance to heat.  They come from a place full of fire and gore.  Now how would you define that as a soldier or scientist?  Hmm...how about HELL?

I just wanted to clarify a few things so everyone knows exactly what is in the game and isn't making assumptions.

"Satan exists. I built his cage."

On every Doom3 resource, the monsters are referred to as "demons".

Shoddy argument you have there. Hell is a real place in Doom 3. You enter it, you fight it, and you are immersed in it. While it's not biblically accurate, it is still Hell in the Christian secularized concept.

 

[amorphus88]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Aug. 08 2004,9:09)]UT2004 doesn't have it in any of the maps, of of the team symbols has a grim reaper with a pentagram necklace.  I am not spending any money on Doom 3 because of the symbols ID toss in their games

Might as well hole up in your house and unplug your modem, because of the superficial evidence of sin in the world, eh?

This is the type of Christianity that lets Satan overtake the world because we're too weakminded towards the reality of sin. If you're morally challenged just by seeing a picture which may or may not represent something sinful, then who are you to go out and be witness for Christ in a world immersed in sin?

 

[CCGR]

I am not morally challenged I am morally convicted, there's a big difference.  I am not afraid of losing my salvation if I see a pentagram.  Instead I don't feel right/confortable seeing images that do not glorify God.  In the same sense I don't feel right seeing sexual content in movies or games.  I'm trying to live a cleaner life.  Try to think about that before bashing a fellow Christian.

Who are you to judge where I stand spiritually? Why am I not not worthy to spread the good news? So to your logic I should step down as a junior high leader at my church because of my convictions?

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,1:16)]"Satan exists.  I built his cage."

On every Doom3 resource, the monsters are referred to as "demons".

Shoddy argument you have there.  Hell is a real place in Doom 3.  You enter it, you fight it, and you are immersed in it.  While it's not biblically accurate, it is still Hell in the Christian secularized concept.

Granted, they are referred to as demons. So what?

According to Merriam Webster a demon is:

1 a : an evil spirit b : a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin
2 usually daemon : an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS
3 usually daemon : a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men
4 : one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness <a demon for work

So what's the problem? The Bible doesn't have the exclusive rights to the word "demon". And as I have said before, the term is purely descriptive. Nowhere in the game do you get the impression that you are in the Christian, Biblical definition of hell. If you have played the game, please tell me why you believe the game is referring to the Christian definition of Hell.

Please educate me as to what the Christian secularized concept of Hell is. While you do, please be sure to differentiate between Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus or Hades...all of which are used interchangeably in the Bible.

The word "hell" is used in the Bible 54 times, and each of these references refers to THIS world.

So please, explain to me where I am in error.

 

[amorphus88]

Look at it holistically.  We are in America.  The main Doom 3 audience is Americans.  And America, on the whole, is what?  A Christian nation.  Tread around the issue all you want, but when the average joe hears the word Hell in America, he thinks of the Christian image of Hell, and that the counterpart of that image is Heaven, with the pearly gates and St. Peter attending.


However, you of all people would know that America's perception of Christianity is wrong. America's image of Christianity, as well as the world as a whole, is misconceived and misled by Satan, and this adulterated image is what John Carmack is using as the antagonist in his game.

 

[RossMills]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 16 2004,3:33)]The word "hell" is used in the Bible 54 times, and each of these references refers to THIS world.  

So please, explain to me where I am in error.

When you say that the word "hell" in the Bible always refers to this world is where you are in error.

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43
Mark 9:45
Luke 12:5
Luke 16:23
2 Peter 2:4

Those are MOST of the references I can find in the Bible regarding hell!

Biblically pwned!

 

[RossMills]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,4:13)]Look at it holistically.  We are in America.  The main Doom 3 audience is Americans.  And America, on the whole, is what?  A Christian nation.  Tread around the issue all you want, but when the average joe hears the word Hell in America, he thinks of the Christian image of Hell, and that the counterpart of that image is Heaven, with the pearly gates and St. Peter attending.


However, you of all people would know that America's perception of Christianity is wrong.  America's image of Christianity, as well as the world as a whole, is misconceived and misled by Satan, and this adulterated image is what John Carmack is using as the antagonist in his game.

The main point of difference between the fictional worlds of games involving hell and those outside fiction is that in game there is no "pray for salvation" button.

If there was, the game would be a whole lot easier.

 

[amorphus88]

Quote[/b] ]I am not morally challenged I am morally convicted, there's a big difference.

No, you find yourself threatened by an image in a game.  Does this image harm you?  Does this image tempt you in any way?  No, you are just seeing an image, associating it with sin, and fleeing.

Quote[/b] ]I am not afraid of losing my salvation if I see a pentagram.  Instead I don't feel right/confortable seeing images that do not glorify God.  In the same sense I don't feel right seeing sexual content in movies or games.

Wrong, because sexual images can lead us into sin, and they do tempt us.  Seeing a pentagram in a game is like seeing a penis in a textbook.  Many things in this world do not glorify God, but we have to deal with them.

Quote[/b] ]I'm trying to live a cleaner life.  Try to think about that before bashing a fellow Christian.

I can appreciate that, and I am trying to as well, but does seeing an artist's rendition of a scary monster, or a star with a circle around it sully you?  Remember that what goes into your mouth does not sully you, it is what comes out.

Quote[/b] ]Who are you to judge where I stand spiritually?

I have never questioned your faith.

Quote[/b] ]Why am I not not worthy to spread the good news?

I never said you weren't worthy, I said you were shying from the environment in which you would spread Christ's love.

Quote[/b] ]So to your logic I should step down as a junior high leader at my church because of my convictions?

That's not the issue at hand at all.

Quote[/b] ]Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

The very same goes for you, Cheryl.



I am not questioning your faith, nor your devotion.  I am questioning your means of witness.  Your methodology reflects that of the mid-1900s, when ministers would present fire and brimstone to try to bring people to Christ: "do not do this, do not do that", whereas the most important issue is Christ's love.  And I have a problem with that, because the former never did any good.  Presenting Christ as the cosmic killjoy upstairs never did anyone good.

 

[amorphus88]

Quote[/b] (RossMills @ Aug. 16 2004,5:20)]The main point of difference between the fictional worlds of games involving hell and those outside fiction is that in game there is no "pray for salvation" button.

If there was, the game would be a whole lot easier.  

That's not the point. The point is that the image of Hell presented in Doom 3 is the world's image of Christian Hell.

 

[RossMills]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,4:24)]Many things in this world do not glorify God, but we have to deal with them.

But he has the choice of displaying that image on HIS monitor, or not displaying it on his monitor.

Choosing to forgo the game for the sake of God's glory is a good thing!

 

[RossMills]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,4:26)]That's not the point.  The point is that the image of Hell presented in Doom 3 is the world's image of Christian Hell.

And if people see Doom's hell as what hell will really be like (obviously incorrect) then surely that is against The Word?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (RossMills @ Aug. 16 2004,4:18)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 16 2004,3:33)]The word "hell" is used in the Bible 54 times, and each of these references refers to THIS world.  

So please, explain to me where I am in error.

When you say that the word "hell" in the Bible always refers to this world is where you are in error.

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43
Mark 9:45
Luke 12:5
Luke 16:23
2 Peter 2:4

Those are MOST of the references I can find in the Bible regarding hell!

Biblically pwned!

PWNED?

Prepare to learn something...

Let's look at your usage of Matt 5:22,29-30 for starters.

The word translated here as HELL is the Greek word Gehenna, which is translated from the Hebrew word Hinnom, which is the name of a valley outside Jerusalem where garbage and the carcasses of animals were cast into and consumed by fire constantly kept burning.  Thus, Gehenna is the only one of those words translated as "hell" in the Bible, that has any idea of fire or torment resident in it.  As you can also see, it refers to a PHYSICAL location.

"Gehenna was a well-known valley, near Jerusalem, in which the Jews in their idolatrous days had sacrificed their children to the idol Moloch, in consequence of which it was condemned to receive the offal and refuse and sewage of the city, and into which the bodies of malefactors were cast and where to destroy the odor and pestilential influences, continual fires were kept burning. Here fire, smoke, worms bred by the corruption, and other repulsive features, rendered the place a horrible one, in the eyes of the Jews. It was a locality with which they were as well acquainted. But in process of time Gehenna came to be an emblem of the consequences of sin, and to be employed figuratively by the Jews, to denote those consequences. But always in this world. The Jews never used it to mean torment after death, until long after Christ. The word had not the meaning of post-mortem torment when our Savior used it." (J.W. Hanson's, Bible Threatenings Explained).

Alas, the PWNAGE is mine.

BTW, if those were the only references to hell you could find in your Bible, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're using the Revised Standard Version. Only the KJV or the NKJV reference "hell" in the Old Testament.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,4:26)]

Quote[/b] (RossMills @ Aug. 16 2004,5:20)]The main point of difference between the fictional worlds of games involving hell and those outside fiction is that in game there is no "pray for salvation" button.

If there was, the game would be a whole lot easier.  

That's not the point.  The point is that the image of Hell presented in Doom 3 is the world's image of Christian Hell.

But at no point in time does the game ever reference the Biblical Hell. Just because YOU think it refers to it doesn't make it true. If they wanted it to be a Biblical representation, then why no reference to Satan? I mean come on, if you're going to do HELL, then why not have Satan. That's like representing Heaven without referring to St. Peter or God.

The main problem is there is no good representation of Heaven OR Hell in the Bible. What we have encoded in our brains is a lifetime of errancy. So why blame the game on blurring that line when the real fault lies with history.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (RossMills @ Aug. 16 2004,4:29)]

Quote[/b] (amorphus88 @ Aug. 16 2004,4:26)]That's not the point.  The point is that the image of Hell presented in Doom 3 is the world's image of Christian Hell.

And if people see Doom's hell as what hell will really be like (obviously incorrect) then surely that is against The Word?

What is Hell really like then?

What are your sources for this info?

If you're using the Bible then you need to understand that the word HELL in the bible is horribly mistranslated?

I honestly am very intersted in your definition of hell, don't let me down.

 

[CCGR]

Amorphus88,

Pentragams/pentacles have meaning behind them that I do not like.  I have have a friend who is now a Christian (Amen!) but she used to be a pagan.  She even had it tattooed on her.  She is very uncomfortable seeing those in games as well.  It's knowing about them and what they are glorifying that makes me not want anything to with them, nor support the companies that put them there.  It has nothing to do with my lack of faith.  If I was to play a game like Doom 3 in front of her, that would not be a good example.  I don't mean to be a killjoy, I am just sharing my views.  I don't expect everyone to conform to them.  I don't expect many to agree. All I ask is for respect of my beliefs/decisions on what I have decided to shed away from my old self.  Remember I wasn't always like this.  These things used to never phase me.  If they don't bother you, great!

Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

 

[Gandhi]

thats cool CCGR.

Lets agree to disagree. And lets all have ice cream.
I'm having strawberry ice cream.

People have the right to choose if they are comfortable to play a game or not.
U and me don't mind playing games like that, CCGR is not telling us not to play it, she's just saying she's not comfortable playing it. Thats fine. Just respect her decission.

If she enjoyed watching barney videos over and over again, and u didn't. Would u like her to keep on going after u telling u that u're not allowed to not like it, u have to watch it over and over again.

Maybe bad example but I'm enjoying my ice cream .

 

[RossMills]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 16 2004,7:27)]I honestly am very intersted in your definition of hell, don't let me down.

A place, plane, or something, that God's presence is not apparent in.  There will be fire and gnashing of teeth.  Quite possibly screaming.  Although I have never been there, I have heard what it is like.

Use of metaphor I heard elsewhere here:

Hell: Imagine a big table with millions of people at it, all trying to eat their food with 5 foot long chopsticks. (Difficulty and selfishness)

Heaven: Imagine a big table with millions of people at it, all feeding each other. (Love, compassion and helpfulness)

And I find it quite likely that Gehenna would have been chosen as an apt metaphor in itself of suffering that would be apparent in hell/hades/whatever you want to call it.  Which is why it was used.

 

[Arkanjel]

I think the one thing that "WE" as professed christians must keep in mind is, that Satan/Lucifer/Baal/Belzebub/(insert your pagan diety here), is the god of this world. "the prince of this world" in John 12:31 and 14:30, and Paul referred to him as "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4 The bottom line is that if it does not glorify God and his awesome grace, then it glorifies lucifer and his fallen ways. People will tell you that there is a lot of gray areas in this world. Unfortunately that is a lie. God is pretty specific when he gives us a command, and does not give us any room to give our own spin on things. Now we have the freedom to either follow that command or to ignore, thus the freedom of will. To bring these things into your home is to allow satan into your home, and to approve of his methods for subversion. Again it is your free will to do as you want, however we have all been warned as to the dangers of making "light" of such things. Hopefully this will help those who have been unsure about what to do in this instance.
Also since an apt description of hell is needed I have found a few things here. Obviously different translations have different descriptions. One thing to be careful of IS the different translations that abound, some are written to be politically correct. Whatever version you have, do some research and know the history of that which you ascribe to.

In Christ,
Gabriel

Rev.19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (RossMills @ Aug. 17 2004,2:15)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Aug. 16 2004,7:27)]I honestly am very intersted in your definition of hell, don't let me down.

A place, plane, or something, that God's presence is not apparent in.  There will be fire and gnashing of teeth.  Quite possibly screaming.  Although I have never been there, I have heard what it is like.

Use of metaphor I heard elsewhere here:

Hell: Imagine a big table with millions of people at it, all trying to eat their food with 5 foot long chopsticks. (Difficulty and selfishness)

Heaven: Imagine a big table with millions of people at it, all feeding each other. (Love, compassion and helpfulness)

And I find it quite likely that Gehenna would have been chosen as an apt metaphor in itself of suffering that would be apparent in hell/hades/whatever you want to call it.  Which is why it was used.

Thank you....but you forgot one thing.

Where did you get that definition from?  Where did you cull that information from?  The Bible?  If so, where?

You mentioned weeping and gnashing of teeth, sorry, but nowhere in the Bible are those terms used to describe "hell".  Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28 describe weeping and gnashing of teeth but all those verses refer to the destruction of Jerusalem when their kingdom was cast out, not in "hell".

Why also, would God's prescence be void in "hell"?

I'm afraid your view of hell is lacking in Biblical reference.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Arkanjel @ Aug. 17 2004,7:56)]Rev.19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Please check your definitions here. What words have been translated here as "hell"?

These verses always speak of brimstone and fire coming from heaven, not hell; and this brimstone and fire is always on the earth, and never in "hell". Genesis 19:24; Deuteronomy 29:23; 2 Kings 1:12,14, Job 1:16; 18:15; Psalm 11:6; 18:13, Isaiah 30:33; 34:9; Ezekiel 38:22; Luke 17:29; Revelation 14:10; 19:20; 20:10; 21:8

In Revelation 20:13-14, if one thinks of "hell" as death represented by the grave, it makes sense for hell to be cast into the lake of fire. After all, if "hell" itself is really a lake of fire, how can it be thrown into itself? This does not make any sense. Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:26 that death will be destroyed. What is represented by death? The grave!

A few more things to keep in mind about conventional images of "hell"...

Is "hell" composed of an everlasting fire? Hanson wrote, "Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done -- the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment."

Furnace of fire? Nope, not that either. The verses that refer to a "furnace of fire" refer to the first century when Jerusalem was destroyed. It is no where said that God has a furnace in eternity, in which to burn souls.

An everlasting fire? Check the translation. Does "forever" always mean never ending? No. In the Bible, "for ever" is used where it has the meaning of lasting only as long as the duration of the event or as long as the man lives. Jonah calls "three days and three nights", "forever" (Jonah 1:17; 2:6). Hannah clearly explains what she means by the term "forever" when she says in verse 28, "as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (1 Sam. 1:22,28). Here "forever" is "ten generations" (Deut. 23:3). "Forever" obviously is as long as David lived (1 Chron. 28:4). Leprosy lasted for Gehazi as long as he lived (2 Kings 5:27). It’s apparent that the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used (Exo. 21:5-6, Deut. 15:16-17, Philem. 1:10,11,15). Revelation 20:10 can agree with Ezekiel 28:18 by interpreting "for ever" as meaning "as long as they last in the fire or until the fire has burned them up completely." This is a good example of letting scripture interpret itself.

What about the location of "Hell". Since "hell" means "the grave," scripture should describe hell as it would the grave. And in fact, this is what we find!

Hell is described as being in the earth, and in the foundation of the mountains - the foundations being under the earth (Deuteronomy 32:22). Hell is deep - underground (Job 11:8). The direction of hell is down (Psalms 55:15, Ezekiel 32:21,27). Hell is low (Psalms 86:13). Hell is beneath us (Proverbs 15:24, Isaiah 14:9). Hell is a pit (Isaiah 14:15, Ezekiel 31:16). We must dig into hell (Amos 9:2). Hell (the grave) follows death (Revelation 6:8).


I think it's time to truly understand what is actually in the Bible and not the misconceptions that we've been living with for generations.