Extreme Worship

V

Vanaze

New Member
I have attended many worship events in my life, besides normal attendance of Sunday morning/evening and Wednesday night church, and I have come question when worship stops being worship and starts being something that it shouldn't be.

Example:

I was once in a service where the pastor was very charismatic, which I have no problem with. He began to sweat profusely and called for an invitation. People began to fall out, almost row by row, to go down front and pray or make decisions for the Lord. Now, after quite a bit, everyone was in a very worshipful mood, and the only sounds you could hear were singing and crying. Now, I thought that was wonderful, and it warmed my heart to see it. Until a lady down near the front threw her hands to the sky and began to shout and yell, and suddenly, everyone in the room was staring at her. I've seen this several times, sometimes in the middle of a sermon, and like a wildfire, it spreads to other members of the congregation, and suddenly, it seems like a mass of chaos. The pastor loses his spiritual grip on the people, the message does NOT get delivered, and people just wind up leaving whenever they "feel led."

Now, it occurs to me that not /all/ of these, if any, could be good for God.

My first arguement:
All of the attention suddenly went from God to these people. Sermons were interupted, and I believe through this, the spirit was interrupted. Other people's worship experiences were scarred through some of these instances, as well. (Do not cause a brother to stumble, maybe?) These could have been times that the spirit was working on a lost person, reaching out to them, and because of this interuption, salvation did not occur.

Secondly:
It was a mass of confusion. God is NOT a God of confusion, rather, Satan is (anyone care to share that verse with us? I don't have my sword nearby, and I can't remember it.)

I'd like to hear this church of Christians that is CGA to comment freely on this and let us know your own experiences and thoughts.



Footnote:
This topic is not meant to offend or reprimand anyone of you, but simply to encourage you all to take a second look and evaluate what "true worship" is.
 
well was this certain person just yelling or was the lady speaking in tungues?? theres a pretty big difrence and sometimes a fine line. i love charismatic stuff like that myself, (i.e. NW Youth Conference), yet when a person is shouting for the heck of it, then she is just "stumbling others" and i at that point if ever happen again to pray to God that this lady/ or man would be unable to speak.
 
actually since it was a church service it doesn't matter whether she was just hollering or speaking in tongues (there are set rules detailing the use of tongues within the context of a church service)

The verse about confusion is in 1 corinthians if memory serves.


I've written numerous times over the various charismatic movements, and what I written can usually be boiled down to: "be careful that it's the Holy Spirit." A lot of the manifestations of the charismatic movement fail and whither under the bright light of the Word of God.


remember there is a fine line between a dead church and a choatic church, and that particular line is one of the narrow ones that we Christians must walk, and walk it we can. We can raise our hands in worship, without muttering in the angelic tongue. We can go kneel at the alter without falling on our backs.
 
i dont think ive ever seen anyone on their back during a service, unless of course they were slain in the spirit. and ur right there are set rules, im used to 2 difrent types of churches, baptist and one that has word of knowlege, and more spirit filled msg's.
 
When the focus of worship is interrupted from being on God, and rather on mass chaotic... "happenings", and/or people, then... it's probably not very worshipful to God. I am skeptical about the whole yelling and screaming - in my mind's eye it seems like everyone has gone insane, not praising God...???
 
Episodes like Vanaze mentioned keep me from getting too involved in those kinds of "worship". I don't know what's right and what isn't, but I don't want to know and frankly all of it (except actual singing/praise) makes me rather uncomfortable. And I can't worship if I'm squirming now can I?
 
I just find it odd how several of these posts already have shown concern or confusion about this, whether it is "Real" or not. Kidan was right, yes, there is a line between chaos and worship, but ah.....Seems that not all of us are aware where that line is.

Here's an idea...Let's say....Anyone who has been a Christian for about 5-6 years or more, post so some of our, and i feel slightly /wrong/ by saying this, "nub Christians" can get an idea what might be acceptable to God as worship. It may include verses that show types of worship, your own worship experiences and things such as that.

I think maybe we should try to express our worship to our Father in different, unique ways, but perhaps there should be some "no-no's" for corperate worship(worshipping with a group).
 
Atown--yes, being 'slain in the spirit' is what I was refering to.

Maxx-- you don't want to know?  That's a true shame.  We are told in the Bible to grow in knowledge of the Lord and the Word.  As well, it's possible that you might learn something that helps you grow closer to the Lord.

mpty--but sometimes screaming is acceptable.  The Jews screamed as a form of praise and worship, and as such it's an acceptable form of praise and worship, but it does have a time/place during the service.


Van--that's an interesting idea, so here we go.

ok, i don't have verses for these as I'm at work, but if there are any questions about them then I'll dig up the Biblical support if asked for.

Things that shouldn't be done (or should be discouraged) during Corporate Worship
1) Corporate Prayer (this shouldn't have such a big place in our services)
2) Speaking in tongues w/o an interpreter
3) more than 3 people speaking in tongues with an interpreter
4) Using the angelic tongue
5) being slain in the spirit
6) 'Holy Laughter'
7) Other manifestations, commonly refered to as 'being drunk in the Spirit'


Things to be done or encouraged during worship
1) Raising of hands during praise/worship & prayer time
2) Laying on off hands during prayer
3) Praise & worship through song (voice and instrumental)
4) Standing during the reading of the Word


Things that can be done at some parts of the service but not others
1) Screaming.  This is appropriate for the Praise and worship time.  While it is an appropriate form of praise/worship, it should not be done during the sermon and should not be encouraged to occur during alter calls
2) Jumping/Dancing. This is another appropriate form of praise and worship that should not be done during the sermon, should not be encouraged during alter calls, but is perfectly acceptable during praise & worship time.

Of course this is not an exhaustive list, and I left off some of the more common sense things such as talking during the sermons, eating/drinking in the chapel, etc.  As well some people will have issues with the things I've listed, and will not agree with the Biblical interpretation that argues against/for certain actions.  

As always, study for yourself, and make a decision in prayer and communion with God.
 
eh?? whats wrong with being "slain in the spirit"? though it should be useally done during a seperate time from worship and the sermon, yet some are done during worship. and what do u mean by corperate prayer? and i dont think we should have interpreters cuz its kind a spur of the moment thing God does.
 
there is no Biblical basis for being slain in the spirit.  It fails the test of doctrine, and comparing to things that the Holy Spirit has done in the past.  

A quick list of problems with it:
1) the Holy Spirit NEVER knocked away down in scriptures
2) on the odd (and they were RARE occasions) occasions people were knocked down (by the presence of Christ, not the Holy Ghost) they fell on their faces (ie forwards not backwards)
3)  terminology (yes, how we describe things is very important to the actual meaning of the event)  The Spirit gives life, there should never be an attribution of death to the Spirit in relation to a Christian.  The terminology indicates that by being slain in the spirit, you are seperating (death/'being slain' is symbolic for seperation throughout the scriptures) yourself from the Holy Spirit.


Corporate Prayer is when 1 person gets up and does a long winded prayer for the whole congregation.  Christ did not use corporate prayer, and He taught against those who did (the Pharisee's).  Now can it be done in the church? Of course, but it should be kept to a minimum.


No, according to Paul, we have control over the gifts of the Spirit.  While we may feel lead to give a message in tongues, if we know there is no interpreter we should not, and if we know there is an interpreter, but that person won't interpert (say, someone has already given a message, and it wasn't interpreted) we should not.  Again, Paul is quite clear on this (still at work, don't have the exact scriptures but they're found in 1 Cor if memory serves).
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] and i dont think we should have interpreters cuz its kind a spur of the moment thing God does.
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1 Corinthians 14:27-28, NKJV....
"If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.  But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God."
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]mpty--but sometimes screaming is acceptable. The Jews screamed as a form of praise and worship, and as such it's an acceptable form of praise and worship, but it does have a time/place during the service.
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I was referring to Vanaze's case... Maybe I need to clarify general statements and specifics
tounge.gif
 
1st cor, says in 14:2 [2] For anyone who speaks in a tongue* does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. and no where in the 1st cor it says we have control over it. it may be in a difrent part of the Bible but im still looking and when ur "slain in the spirit" u are juist overwhelmed by the presence of Christ, as u said. but the Bible states somethin like "God in 3 persons" so technically it works out in the terminology. and u dont always have to go on ur back but i would think would be more comfy to be on my back instead of my face.
 
See ember's post above for the interpreter bit. Likewise it's in that same aspect that tells us that we control the Spirit, for if it was an overwhelming urge that we had no control over, how could we decide to not speak if there's no interpreter, or not teach if two many have already done so.

now onto being slain

but you must remember that each aspect of the godhead has certain tasks if you will. We don't seek out God the Father for forgiveness, we seek Christ, we don't seek Christ as our comforter that's where the Holy Ghost comes in.

The thing is that we don't say the Holy Ghost forgave my sins, because that's not His ministry. Now as you said, whenever on the rare occasions that people fell, it was always in the sight of Jesus, and they fell forward. This already brings up two of the problems. First, since God is the same always, then He would not start having things happening in the presence of the Holy Ghost all of a sudden that He never bothered to have recorded. Secondly, the falling seems to be happening a lot in these churches. While in the Bible it's recorded 3 times in the NT and about 6 or 7 times in the OT, it happened every friday nite for 7 years here in Pensacola at the Brownsvill AoG.

Anyways, the link below has a very good article on being slain in the spirit that you might wish to read.
http://www.alphathruomega.com/churcherrors/slainspirit.html
 
i did read most of ur thing but didt have enough time to finish it. and i believe that when ur slain, u shouldt fly 15 feet, or twitch. ive seen it happen where a guy went from person to person 60% were slain, and they all just kinda fell backwards into someones hands. did anyone twitch? not one did. were they passed out? hard to tell, but a few people i kinda noticed their eyes flutter every now n then. and u have to remember in the Bible u couldt record every single "slaying" and we have more believers than there ever was during that era. and can we ever completely tell the difrence between the presence of God or the holy spirit?? for me i cant, yet i feel a holy presence when i pray and read my Bible
 
"Maxx-- you don't want to know? That's a true shame. We are told in the Bible to grow in knowledge of the Lord and the Word. As well, it's possible that you might learn something that helps you grow closer to the Lord."

Er, I learn about God by reading the Bible and praying, not jumping around like a leprechaun. Technically that IS worship, if you listen to some preachers.
 
but unless you learn about it, how do you know whether it's right or not?

There are a number of things, that get odd stares that is proper worship of the Lord. Screaming and dancing are two of the more popular ones.
 
While dancing and hollerin' might be fine to the Lord, you also have to realize it might be a culture shock to other, not-so-mature Christians. It could shock them so much that they may stop attending a church, or services completely. (Yes, I've seen it happen, sadly.)

If you aren't supposed to cause another Christian to stumble, perhaps you should keep that sort of thing for personal worship. Just a thought.


PS I'm not knockin' these different ways of worship, I just can't dance, so maybe I've envious. Although, at any given time, you might see me in my car bangin' my head and singing at the top of my lungs. That's /my/ kind of worship.
 
"but unless you learn about it, how do you know whether it's right or not?"

Uh...who said I didn't learn about it?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (MaxX @ Dec. 09 2003,7:13)]I don't know what's right and what isn't, but I don't want to know
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I assumed that this part of your post, was saying that you didn't know about these forms of worship and you did not wish to learn.
 
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