Freewill

[Jim]

I think a problem going on in certain threads is a lack of communication on the principles of choice, free will and God's creating all while knowing all in advance. So I will cut to the chase:

God creates a man. He knows what this man will do with his life (Otherwise he is not omniscient). God looks ahead and knows this man will do something terrible. He knows this man will march into a school and gun down children for nothing more than sick pleasure.

Now I ask you:

What is the choice here? Does the man commit the act? If he does not, is God omniscient? Can an omniscient being be surprised by changes of heart? I think in the traditional sense, no. If God knew the man was already going to do something, and he does it, that is him walking a pre-set path. No? Define this situation differently, please.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Good questions.

Let me throw a monkey wrench in here.

Jim, you asked if an omniscient being can be suprised by changes of heart. The God in the Bible obviously can. Look at the story of the Flood. "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." I guess God DOES make mistakes.

 

[Jim]

Quote[/b] ]Jim, you asked if an omniscient being can be suprised by changes of heart. The God in the Bible obviously can. Look at the story of the Flood. "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." I guess God DOES make mistakes.

Point taken, but if anything it only highlights the incoherence of omniscience. Does it make sense that God would know the grief man would cause, create them, knowing what they would do, annihilate them save one family, then repent, giving his covenant that he would never do so again? This sounds EXTREMELY nonsensical.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Does it make sense that God would know the grief man would cause, create them, knowing what they would do, annihilate them save one family, then repent, giving his covenant that he would never do so again? This sounds EXTREMELY nonsensical.

No, it doesn't make sense and yes, it's extremely nonsensical. But in the end, those are the facts we are left with.

I can feel it...that word will be used...the word I abhor...Sovereignty.

Sorry guys, but that's a crutch. Sure, you can lay it down on Sovereignty, but that doesn't mean you can draw logical conclusions from the evidence.

 

[Dark Virtue]

This says it better than I could, it is an essay by Niclas Berggren:

Quote[/b] ]A strong argument against the existence of the Christian god (henceforth referred to as God) is contained in the theodicy problem, which can be stated in the following manner:


If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good.[1]
The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God.
Suffering exists.
God does not exist.[2]
To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other, non-Biblical god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these.

This essay will take a look at the most common, and perhaps the only possible, counter-argument, the free-will defense [henceforth the FWD]. In brief, it says that point 2 above is incorrect because suffering is a result of the free actions of human beings, created by God with a capacity to choose either good or evil. Hence, it is the fault of humans that suffering exists and not of God. Below, I will present this counter-argument in more detail and, as the main contribution, show that it is unsound and that, as a result, the theodicy problem remains intact. In this venture, I will present an argument of my own along with extensive quotes.

(Body of the article)

Possibly the strongest argument against the existence of the Christian god is contained in the theodicy problem, i.e., the problem of defending God in the presence of evil. The Christian may try to escape from this problem by claiming that God is not responsible and blameworthy for (moral) evil, since it follows from the free actions of human beings, who are morally autonomous. What this essay has demonstrated is that this attempt to escape from the problem of evil - known as the free-will defense - is a failure. Why is that so? For at least three reasons, each of them sufficient to enable the theodicy problem, as stated in Section 1, to hold against the FWD.

1. The FWD does not cover non-moral evils, which are not the result of the actions of men.

2. The Bible informs us that man does not, in fact, have free will, since he is born with a sinful nature (the doctrine of original sin) such that he cannot avoid sinning. Hence, God - who decided that two persons' wrong choice would cause every human being to be born sinful - is blameworthy for this evil-prone nature of man - and, ultimately, then, for all evil.[17]

3. Even if man is believed to have free will, God could have created humans such that they would always freely choose the good. This he did not do and is therefore ultimately responsible and blameworthy for any evil act which humans perform.

We can now conclude that the theodicy problem remains intact: a god who is responsible and blameworthy for evil is, himself, evil, and hence, God (who is defined as being all-good) does not exist. The FWD can do nothing to alter this conclusion.

However, the Christian might offer a final reply to this, namely, that the existence of evil is a mystery which finite human minds cannot properly comprehend; and if we just put our (blind) faith in God, we can maintain the conviction, that he actually does exist. To state this incorporates admitting that religious belief has nothing to do with reason: it is a whim which is sustained irrespective of rational arguments. This amounts to adhering to religious belief, not because one is interested in the truthfulness of it all, but because it fulfills some particular need (such as providing comfort and friendship). But this misology constitutes slippery ground.

To quote Le Poidevin (1996, p. 102): "What I want to suggest is that theists who refuse to answer the problem of evil are guilty of internal irrationality, at least if they hold the following beliefs:"


"Belief in a loving creator is intellectually defensible.
We cannot solve the problem of evil; that is, we cannot explain how the existence and nature of suffering can be consistent with the existence of a loving creator."


"Now, if from the human perspective, belief in a loving creator cannot be squared with the presence of suffering, then it is simply not rational to continue to hold on to that belief. /…/ f, from our perspective, there is no justification for suffering, then that is a reason to reject, as mistaken, any perspective (including God's) in which there is a justification for suffering. If it turned out that, from God's perspective, any amount of human suffering is perfectly acceptable, then that would be a horrible discovery to make. We simply could not go on believing that God was genuinely benevolent, at least as we conceive of benevolence."

"So, if we believe that theism can only be entertained if it is rational, and we believe that we cannot produce a satisfactory justification of suffering in terms of God's purposes, then we must reject theism. If the theist admits to (2), then (1) must be given up."

Link.

 

[LLAMA]

Quote[/b] ]
Jim, you asked if an omniscient being can be suprised by changes of heart. The God in the Bible obviously can. Look at the story of the Flood. "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." I guess God DOES make mistakes.

Just because God was grieved with his creation does not mean he made a mistake.

Quote[/b] ]Sorry guys, but that's a crutch.

Whats wrong with this so called "crutch"? Can we not have "crutches"?

 

[Jehovahjava]

one little thing I would like to briefly mention is that linear time is how we exist, it is NOT how God exists, time is something that we use to pass the time. God WAS and IS and IS TO COME, he exists throughout eternity. Its not so much he knows the future, but that he exists there as well. It can be a mind blower to try to grasp this idea. Also God looks at our hearts and sees what we can be if we only turn to him. I guess I am also saying that our lives are not set in stone but move fluidly, and as we move through live God stays near us and he has been known to change his mind on occasion. God does not make mistakes, but he can change his will for us as we move to meet him.

PS I hope to have internet back soon so I can be here more often, and hopefully catch up on some of these threads. Peace to you all.

J.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (LLAMA @ Oct. 08 2004,3:04)]

Quote[/b] ]Just because God was grieved with his creation does not mean he made a mistake.

I see, so God INTENTIONALLY created something that would make Him greivous? After all, being omniscient, He would have to have seen how things would turn out. Right? If that's the case, then WHY did God intentionally create something so horribly flawed that it needed to be wiped out?

Quote[/b] ]Whats wrong with this so called "crutch"? Can we not have "crutches"?

Personally, I prefer to walk under my own power, on my own two feet.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Jehovahjava @ Oct. 08 2004,3:21)]one little thing I would like to briefly mention is that linear time is how we exist, it is NOT how God exists, time is something that we use to pass the time. God WAS and IS and IS TO COME, he exists throughout eternity. Its not so much he knows the future, but that he exists there as well. It can be a mind blower to try to grasp this idea. Also God looks at our hearts and sees what we can be if we only turn to him. I guess I am also saying that our lives are not set in stone but move fluidly, and as we move through live God stays near us and he has been known to change his mind on occasion. God does not make mistakes, but he can change his will for us as we move to meet him.

PS I hope to have internet back soon so I can be here more often, and hopefully catch up on some of these threads. Peace to you all.

J.

I think you're getting caught up in your explanation.

Time may be fluid for us, but it is not for God.

Time IS set in Stone for God because He exists in the past, the present and the future. Therefore, He has seen how everything will turn out. While you struggle with decisions throughout your day, He knew before you were born every single decision you have made.

All you've done is reinforce my point, I thank you.

God doesn't change His mind? Why does one change their mind? Because they are unsure of their choices? Because they have made a mistake? They do not have all the facts? God doesn't fall into ANY of those catagories. WHY would God need to change His mind once He has made a decision? Again, being able to see the past, present and future, there shouldn't be any need for God to change His mind.

Perhaps we should look in the Bible:

Numbers 23
19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

James 1
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Sorry, but the Bible says God doesn't change His mind.

 

[The Penguin Slayer]

Does the bible indeed say that god is oniscient? I have always been
under the impression that he was

 

[Dark Virtue]

In order for God to be GOD, then He would need to be Omnimax:

Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent,et al

 

[Mr.Bill]

I think that is a valid question tho DV. Many of our arguements are dependant upon god being omni___, so mayhaps it should be better substantiated. Are there verses that say god is all powerful/knowing?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sheesh, shouldn't a Christian be charged with supporting that?

OK, here goes:

Omnipotent
Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Omnipresent
Jeremiah 23
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Omniscient
John 21
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Everlasting:
Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

How's that?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

God has been here forever since the beginnign there has been God and God is the beginning.

huh? what? i don't get it! you're not supposed to. Some things are just too big to grasp about god. i often just sit there trying to think about it and i just can't get it. wow. =O GOd is real. [by the way i can't post that often] if you don't have to i prefer u don't

about earlier u said u wanted proof? well now u gotta believe me.
1. when you see a building you assumed it was designed by someone right? but you don't know that person. ____ is that you can know something by the results.
you can KNOW god exists by seeing everythign he has made.
2. do you believe people can speak in tongues? i know someone who can.
3. do you believe in prophesizing? one of my friends has WEIRD dreams. he can see something that happens the next day.

lots of people have that gift but believe that it is just a human brain thing.

4. power of prayer. do you believe that all my prayers have been answered? really? yup.
5. has jesus really lived? yes! duh! the roman empire has existed and has been written in the bible. i know many people know these facts but they haven't registered in their heads. this is proof that the bible is not necessarily completely true but it has some credibility. link together the writings of the old testament to the new. they fit perfectly but they are different religions at the same time.
6. do you believe in healing power? i know many people that have been healed @ a camp i went to. physically hurt people got healed after we prayed. [mustard seed parable]

lol i think you should watch the leftbehind series.
7. Testimonies. do you believe that a drug addict on alcohol and cocaine could get off? probably not. many people have changed just by the simple decision to accept christ. i have heard of personal examples of people changing.

-----
there is a guy i know who was involved in gangs and drugs. his name is jaeson. he is now a VERY inspired youth pastor.
for example he went to china to preach. he needed a translator. one of the young youths cried out that he [jaeson] should come back again after learning chinese. all of a sudden when he got home his mom said, for some reason the pastor at our church decided to give you a set of tapes on how to learn madarin. WHAT?!?!??
DV wanna e-mail this guy? jaeson@gmail.com

-----
i have changed greatly after heraing his message and i am STILL on fire for 6 weeks!!!

every person has a little spot in their heart for god. many try to fill that empty space with games, rap, music, and money. i just feel so happy by just knowing christ.

 

[BBBK]

What I know -

1 - God exists

2 - His Son died so that I might have eternal life

3 - There are questions regarding God that I won't ever know the answers to until I meet Him.

I don't know exactly how it all fits together and anything I would say would be a guess based on my relationship with God. Some things just have to be taken on faith.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]about earlier u said u wanted proof? well now u gotta believe me.

Uh, WHY do I have to believe you? You obviously don't believe me.

Quote[/b] ]1. when you see a building you assumed it was designed by someone right? but you don't know that person. ____ is that you can know something by the results.
you can KNOW god exists by seeing everythign he has made.

Not a good analogy, especially not to someone in the architectural field

If I don't know who designed a building all I have to do is look it up. If the building is recent I can pick up the phone and call them. I can talk to the contractor as well. The last time I checked, God wasn't in the phone book. I do not KNOW God exists by looking around, and I'm sorry to say, neither do you. You may BELIEVE that, but there is no PROOF.

Quote[/b] ]2. do you believe people can speak in tongues? i know someone who can.

1 Cor. 14
6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

In other words, what's the point in speaking in gibberish if no one can understand you?

Quote[/b] ]3. do you believe in prophesizing? one of my friends has WEIRD dreams. he can see something that happens the next day.

lots of people have that gift but believe that it is just a human brain thing.

Proof? Should I take your hearsay for granted? How do we know your friend is telling the truth? How do we know he doesn't believe what he wants to believe?

Quote[/b] ]4. power of prayer. do you believe that all my prayers have been answered? really? yup.

If every single one of your prayers have always been answered, then I do believe you are the only one. If this is true, do me a huge favor please. Pray to God to convert me. I'll let you know what happens.

Quote[/b] ]5. has jesus really lived? yes! duh! the roman empire has existed and has been written in the bible. i know many people know these facts but they haven't registered in their heads. this is proof that the bible is not necessarily completely true but it has some credibility. link together the writings of the old testament to the new. they fit perfectly but they are different religions at the same time.

If there is incontrivertible proof of Christ's existence then the majority of historians are obviously missing something. If the truth is so easy to find, please point me in its direction. Look at the history of the NT, particularly at authorship. Even biblical scholars have a hard time attributing authorship to the gospels and other NT works.

Quote[/b] ]6. do you believe in healing power? i know many people that have been healed @ a camp i went to. physically hurt people got healed after we prayed. [mustard seed parable]

lol i think you should watch the leftbehind series.

If healing actually worked, then why do injured/sick Christians go to the hospital instead of Church for healing?

Quote[/b] ]7. Testimonies. do you believe that a drug addict on alcohol and cocaine could get off? probably not. many people have changed just by the simple decision to accept christ. i have heard of personal examples of people changing.

Many people have turned their lives around without the aid of religion.

Quote[/b] ]-----
there is a guy i know who was involved in gangs and drugs. his name is jaeson. he is now a VERY inspired youth pastor.
for example he went to china to preach. he needed a translator. one of the young youths cried out that he [jaeson] should come back again after learning chinese. all of a sudde[n when he got home his mom said, for some reason the pastor at our church decided to give you a set of tapes on how to learn madarin. WHAT?!?!??
DV wanna e-mail this guy? jaeson@gmail.com

Sure, and you can visit Dan Barker's web page. He was an ordained minister for many years that left his faith behind and chose reason and logic instead. dbarker@mailbag.com

His Website

Quote[/b] ]-----
i have changed greatly after heraing his message and i am STILL on fire for 6 weeks!!!

every person has a little spot in their heart for god. many try to fill that empty space with games, rap, music, and money. i just feel so happy by just knowing christ.

Like I said, God knows what will make me believe, He knows what switch to flip to make me a believer. If He wants me to believe, He will flip that switch.

But, since all your prayers come true, I'll just wait for you to pray for God to open my eyes and see the error of my ways!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (BBBK @ Oct. 08 2004,9:29)]Some things just have to be taken on faith.

What DOESN'T have to be taken on Faith?

 

[Jim]

I apologise for my lack of participation thus far. I never realised it had juped from 4 replies to 16 in a single night.

I notice some people seem to have drifted from free will to evidence for God existing.

Fragboy:

Quote[/b] ]about earlier u said u wanted proof? well now u gotta believe me.
1. when you see a building you assumed it was designed by someone right? but you don't know that person. ____ is that you can know something by the results.
you can KNOW god exists by seeing everythign he has made.
2. do you believe people can speak in tongues? i know someone who can.
3. do you believe in prophesizing? one of my friends has WEIRD dreams. he can see something that happens the next day. lots of people have that gift but believe that it is just a human brain thing.

1) the building analogy doesn't really add up. As DV said, there are plenty of ways to ascertain wether a structure was built by man. Many people struggle to wonder at seemingly impossible archetectural phenomenon such as the pyramids. Some people think they were assisted by aliens.

Likewise, when we look at nature and wonder how it was formed. Do I know? Does anyone? No, and if anyone claims they do, they are fully welcome to enlighten us. Using the God formula is simply casting obvious doubt out of the window and adopting a ready-made answer. Why are we here? God made us. How does life work? God made it work. How did the universe begin? God made it begin. A consistent pattern has been rather than find out to simply leave it up to God and not bother looking for the solution. After all, hasn't the church had a record of standing against science?

2) About this person you know who can speak in tongues. By speaking in tongues, do you mean he/she can communicate to anyone of any nationality? If so, please invite him/her to this forum. I would be greatly interested to know why this person has never been noticed enough to warrant some kind of information.

3) I too have had vague dreams were I would swear the situation would occur a day or more later. I believe this is called deja vu and very many people experience it throughout their lives. There are a catalogue of phenomenon that can't be explained: Fireproof people, people vanishing and reappearing and so on. Deja vu ranks very low on special occurences. Some people can communicate with spirits. This is forbidden by the Lord. He gives them a unique gift that is not allowed?

Quote[/b] ]
4. power of prayer. do you believe that all my prayers have been answered? really? yup.
5. has jesus really lived? yes! duh! the roman empire has existed and has been written in the bible. i know many people know these facts but they haven't registered in their heads. this is proof that the bible is not necessarily completely true but it has some credibility. link together the writings of the old testament to the new. they fit perfectly but they are different religions at the same time.
6. do you believe in healing power? i know many people that have been healed @ a camp i went to. physically hurt people got healed after we prayed. [mustard seed parable] lol i think you should watch the leftbehind series.
7. Testimonies. do you believe that a drug addict on alcohol and cocaine could get off? probably not. many people have changed just by the simple decision to accept christ. i have heard of personal examples of people changing.

4) and what exactly have you prayed for that has been answered? Forgive the personal question, but I know someone who won £400 in bingo. They claimed they prayed to win and God answered.

I imagine if everyone got their prayers answered, we would all be rich, happy and probably never die. If the aforementioned person went into a terminal children ward filled with anxious parents desperate for their child to live, and told them how his prayer was answered, well, if they don't knock his teeth out, they are better people than me.

5)Actually, all you used to prove Jesus existed was the fact the Roman Empire existed. If this is true, then by your logic, do the Roman Gods exist? Or the Egyptian Gods?

I have already mentioned this in "Interpret my signature", but there is no record of any execution of a man named Jesus. Also, for a contraversial and public figure, Jesus was mentioned by name in not one single record currently known. Philo Judaeus wrote very detailed writings on the affairs of the Jews but never once mentioned any of the events of Jesus' life. AND he lived at the time of Jesus' death.

6)If healing genuinely worked, why do the prayers of entire congregations go unheard to save dying children or sick grandparents, but are heeded to heal injuries at a camp? Why would medical technology be necessary at all?

7)Strong will and determination. Simple and clear. Many people have left drugs and drink through pure hard work and also through the advice of self-help groups.

Quote[/b] ]there is a guy i know who was involved in gangs and drugs. his name is jaeson. he is now a VERY inspired youth pastor.
for example he went to china to preach. he needed a translator. one of the young youths cried out that he [jaeson] should come back again after learning chinese. all of a sudden when he got home his mom said, for some reason the pastor at our church decided to give you a set of tapes on how to learn madarin. WHAT?!?!??
DV wanna e-mail this guy? jaeson@gmail.com

I also remember a certain man named Nicky Cruz who was a notorious gangster who was converted by a priest. I ask, how did Jaeson convert? Did he up and convert one day? Or was he converted by a priest?

As for the tapes, well, it stands to reason that the priest may have known he was leaving for china, perhaps knew he didn't know it very well and took the initiative. There are other ways to explain it too. Anything that seems out of the ordinary can easily be attributed to 'miracles'.

Quote[/b] ] have changed greatly after heraing his message and i am STILL on fire for 6 weeks!!!
every person has a little spot in their heart for god. many try to fill that empty space with games, rap, music, and money. i just feel so happy by just knowing christ.

I'm happy for you, but myself, I feel the need to question the relgion equation. There are simply too many questions unanswered and unexplainable. Forgive my need for proof, but without it, we would be led to believe anything.

from BBBK

Quote[/b] ]What I know -

1 - God exists

2 - His Son died so that I might have eternal life

3 - There are questions regarding God that I won't ever know the answers to until I meet Him.

I don't know exactly how it all fits together and anything I would say would be a guess based on my relationship with God. Some things just have to be taken on faith.

1) How did you ascertain that God exists?

2)I have already given some reasons why Christ can not be proved to have existed. Unless you can reciprocate with proof, what makes you so sure? Would you believe the inside of the Earth was made of marshmallows if you just 'felt' that it was true?

3)There are questions regarding EVERYTHING I would like to know the answer to. Sadly, as I am not immortal and will die one day, I will never find them all. But I owe it to myself to find out as much as I can and relay it onto my children. Where would we be if everyone awaited divine intervention for knowledge?

It seems everyone has had some insightful thoughts, but it will take more solid arguments to sway me, just as I expect Christians to expect.

 

[Jim]

To move back to free will (Since it sems to be cropping up in other threads too) I don't think many of us are on the same wavelength:

God knows all, therefore he knows exactly what we are going to do. I used a train analogy earlier, so I will return to it.

Imagine God building a railway. Imagine he is putting a train on it to run along the rails. Now we are all agreed that God knows all, past, present and future, aren't we? If he knows this, he knows what we will do. He knows that when the train reaches a certain point it will do something terrible. Imagine that train was a person. Imagine that terrible thing was a murder.

Now I have heard from Byblos that God gives us a choice. He lets us make mistakes (If I'm incorrect Byblos, please correct me) because not doing so would impinge on our free will. But by sitting back and permitting us to commit these mistakes is not free will. Remember, free will is proceeding along an uncharted path and making choices. What kind of choice is one that is already made? Everything I will do is already mapped out. It isn't choice, closer to Fate or predestination. In addition, if only divine intervention can stop some people from commiting mistakes (As would be expected, remember, he knows EVERYTHING we will do), why does God not stop some people commiting particularly horrible acts? Why does he allow people to walk blindly along the path to Hell? Every choice that person makes which will take him along that path is made, signed, sealed by GOD. He knows who are going to heaven and Hell before that person is even born. There is a world of difference between Him sitting back and letting us do things our way, and knowingly sitting back and allowing us to walk along an unalterable road to Hell.

Phew, I don't know how much more I can break this down.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Jim brings up many, many good points.

Please keep Free Will in your discussions. I have been asserting that Free Will means nothing verses an ultimatum. God did not give us a choice, God gave us an ultimatum. That alone should negate Free Will.