Gender Roles in Church...

[Dchsknight]

So at the behest of Tek, I am making this thread.

Here is the article I posted on the subject of Women in the church and Authority...

https://carm.org/1-tim-212-13-and-women-pastors-and-elders

Here are my thoughts on the matter fully explained.

The first thing I think we as all believers should do if we decide to partake in this conversation is understand and acknowledge that the Word of God, (at least for me) whether KJV, ESV, NASB, ASV, NIV, is the final authority on all things Christian. Now we might have many different kind of view points on the subject but the word of God is totally and utterly final. And what the bible says supersedes anything anyone says about anything in it.

Now in my opinion the word of God is total and complete. It is literal where it is literal, Metaphorical where it is metaphorical, and uses symbols and allegories. And I also feel that all of the bible is pretty easy to tell when the bible uses those things. Like in Revelations when John says things like 'And something that looked something' happens, etc.

I also when I read the bible keep the Golden rule of interpretation written by Dr. David Cooper and it says...

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

And here is a break down of what that means...


"Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.

• "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis.
  
  "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning.
  
  
  So that being said...
  
  
  I do no think women are allowed to be Pastors. Nor should any women seek to be a pastor. Nor has any women ever really felt the call to be a pastor. Because God would not call someone to do something he has expressly condemned.
  
  As with the Article I first linked the scripture states...
  
  1 Tim. 2:12-13
  ""But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet, 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve,"
  
  This was written by Paul to Timothy. Now this is not a church based book, like Galatians or Ephesians, but is a direct instruction on how a church is to be ran. There is no context or issue Paul is addressing here. He is not like in Galatians condemning what is being preached because a false Prophetess had come into the church, but simple and plain instruction on how the Church was to be ran.
  
  Now here are some things I see when i think about all people who bock at what Paul wrote.
  
  1. You are not the head of the church. It does not belong to you. The church is the bride of Christ. It was made for him and by him. the Church belongs to Jesus. He bought it with his blood. There fore Jesus can do with the Church as he sees fit. He said to Peter "I will build my church." Not us, not you, not me, not Joe or Billy Bob, not John MacArthur, not John Piper, not Spurgeon, but Jesus will build it.
  
  2. No matter what we think or say or do, Jesus's word is final. he is the Master of the universe. he is the almighty controller and sovereign king over all. What he says goes no matter what and there is no theology or doctrine that we can use or say that can subvert that.
  
  3. No matter what the bible says, it is the obligation of the church age believer(Where the bible applies to the Church Age Believer) to obey it. If we do not obey we are in direct disobedience to the word of God.
  
  4. Chronic and conscience disobedience to the word of God is the mark of unbelief. ( 1 John 1:10, , 2:4)
  And those people who are in chronic and conscience disobedience are not saved. Since they are not saved they really have no grounds or idea on what they are talking about because as the bible says the word is foolishness to the unbeliever. And those people will seek to bend and subvert the word of God to fit their world view and not the other way around.
  
  5. It is not sexist or degrading, or even unloving, to display what the bible says, and then expect the brothers and sisters to obey. But only when we as the brothers and sisters in Christ are capable of testing the spirits. We should be able to take what we say to one another and hold them up to the light of the word of God and see if it lines up. If it does line up wholly, then it is right. It does not line up ,it is false.
  
  
  6. And lastly, when the word of God is displayed and used correctly and it causes others to become angry or have a poor attitude about what is being said, the issue is not that the person is saying it, it is the spirit convicting the angry person and they do not like what is being told to them. And they have two responses either obey the word as it is presented(If presented correctly) or kick against the word and live in disobedience.
  
  
  In conclusion I again posted this thread at the behest of Tek, and I take the stance that women are not allowed to be pastors based on what scripture says and that those women who are pastors are living in disobedience to God's word.
  

 

[Odale]

So, I'm not gonna post a long lengthy response as to why you are right or wrong, but I will say this: women leading churches is the least of the Christianity's worries. Perhaps churches should start working making its followers do the love your neighbor thing, first, as most Christians seem to forget that fairly important behavior.

... Jesus was pretty big on that.

Pertaining to your post, here's how 1 Timothy ends:

14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Basically, one woman screwed it all up for everyone therefore no woman can be trusted. Be quiet and pop kids out.

I understand that this is in the Bible, but it doesn't make it any better.

It's good to see you Knight.

 

[Dchsknight]

So, I'm not gonna post a long lengthy response as to why you are right or wrong, but I will say this: women leading churches is the least of the Christianity's worries. Perhaps churches should start working making its followers do the love your neighbor thing, first, as most Christians seem to forget that fairly important behavior.

... Jesus was pretty big on that.

It's good to see you Knight.

This also a big deal.

And I totally agree with you.


" love your neighbor thing"

This is great phrase but I have to say that most of the christian world has no idea what this even means. We got one side down. The lovey part. We care for each other, we encourage each other, we say kind things, we give each other hope. For the most part we got this part down. With some exceptions.

but Love has 2 sides. And the other side of love people do not want anything to do with.

And the Christian world seems to be the only place where this second side of love seems to come under fire.

Here is an example.

You go to a doctor. Your fat, really fat. you have poor circulation. you have diabetes, you have heart trouble. Now that doctor looks you in the face and plainly says "you are fat. If you do not change your ways you are going to die. you need eat healthier, you need to exercise, you need to change your mind and lifestyle on this or you will die.'

Now that doctor might be a little jerkish, but that doctor is giving you life saving and sound words to save your life. Now you have two responses to this doctor, either take his advice and change or not and do what you want, be offended and die.

But it is that doctor's duty to call you out. It is his passion, it is why he became a doctor. To care for people. I would dare say it is his love for you. To look at you and say the hard things because that is what you need to hear.

And I say that because there seems to be rash of people out there now a days that does not want to hear the hard things. They do not want to strong words of the bible. They only want the love, mercy, and kindness of God. But they forget his wrath, judgment, and commands. They dont want to hear, that you are supposed to save your sexual nature for your spouse. They don't want to hear that we are to be set apart and holy. That means watching what you put into your mind and what you put into life. That means turning away from sin and turning to God.

They don't want that side of Love. They just the happy side.

They will stand and say "Oh God be with you, may you be happy, and blessed, and well. Praise Jesus for his every lasting kindness and joy! Thanks be to god it is Sunday!" and then just skip on into church.

and then the preacher looks at them and says "you can not do this. you can not say this. you need to stay away from this and this and this...." and so on. Then they get hurt and offended and run off saying that, that preacher or the person admonishing them is not loving.

As a Pastor I like once said "You fool, your life will be required of you this very night!" (

)

And that is the truth. And the most unloving thing we can do as brothers and sisters in Christ, is to not look at our brothers and sisters and tell them the truth and tell them they are wrong and help pull them back from destruction.

Because all it takes for someone to die in their ways and fall, is one little foothold on one little thing which will allow the devil to come in and destroy them.

That is what I think at least.

 

[Odale]

For fairness, I edited my post and didn't see you posted a response.

Additionally, it should surprise no one that I will not see eye-to-eye with you on this matter.

 

[Dchsknight]

For fairness, I edited my post and didn't see you posted a response.

Additionally, it should surprise no one that I will not see eye-to-eye with you on this matter.

I understand and quite frankly I dont care if you see eye to eye with me. What matters is the word of God.

And as I said in the other thread.

"One of the things we must as Christians understand is that the word of God is the word of God whether we like it or not. So the bible might say things we don't like. We already know that. The world bucks and fights against the word of God every day. We see it with the acceptance of things God says is an abomination and with countless other failings of human nature. "

So it does not matter what you and say or think, or feel. What matters is what Paul wrote inspired by God. And he wrote, No women pastors. And not just in that passage, he also wrote it where he gave the qualifications of a pastor. So The word is final.

And it is not God's problem on whether you agree with him or not. What is yoru problem is what are you going to do with commands? Obey or not.

 

[Dchsknight]

And don't get what I just posted wrong. What I am saying is take it back to the scriptures. We can only have this conversation if we go back to the bible says. Feelings and ideas have no place in it. I still love you odale and I will always hold you as a friend. But the word is the only thing that matters here.

 

[Patriot]

Basically, one woman screwed it all up for everyone therefore no woman can be trusted. Be quiet and pop kids out.

I understand that this is in the Bible, but it doesn't make it any better.

It has nothing to do with trust. It has everything to do with the order established by God. If it was a trust thing, well guess why I have to weed the garden and mow the lawn. . .yeah, because of that Adam guy. They both sinned, both failed, and both received consequences. Paul is saying that because Eve usurped Adam's role as protector and head (interpreter of God's command) she was deceived. The command for women to not be over men is to protect those women by living in the roles that God created them for.

It is neither chauvinistic nor archaic to accept the roles that God prepared for us. And quite frankly, the world would probably be a bit better off if men stepped up and stopped handing over their, God-given, responsibilities to women.

 

[Odale]

So after 20 minutes of reading and some research I found the context in which Paul wrote what he wrong in 1 Timothy 2. Specifically this:

Paul’s words refute the matriarchal authoritarianism practiced by pagan cults in that day. Ephesus, where Timothy ministered, was the home of a cult dedicated to the pagan goddess Artemis. Worship of Artemis was conducted under the authority of an entirely female priesthood that exercised authoritarian dominion over male worshipers. Thus, Paul emphasizes that women should not presume undue authority over men. Paul neither elevates women over men nor men over women, but is rather concerned that men and women be granted equal opportunity to learn and grow in submission to one another and to God (1 Timothy 2:11; cf. Ephesians 5:21).

It was never meant to be a blanket statement that all women should never serve in the church.

Here is the source for my quote: http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/must-women-be-silent-in-church/
Here is another reference to read: http://krishk.com/2014/08/3-dangers-in-interpreting-1-timothy-2/

There are others, too, including people who read these forums who know the scripture better than most of us do (because they're pastors).

I'll help you out: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=1+Timothy+2+Women

And quite frankly, the world would probably be a bit better off if men stepped up and stopped handing over their, God-given, responsibilities to women.

Patriot, what you wrote is disgusting. I know plenty of women who are more brave, kind, able and many, many other good attributes than many men I know. Just because their physiology is different does not mean they are any less able than men are. Besides, that's not what 1 Tim 2 says, anyway. When you can expel a 10 pound human from your gut and only break a sweat in the process, get back to me. Until then, please keep your chauvinistic, archaic, and misogynistic beliefs to yourself.

It's people like you that turned me away from Christianity, Patriot. You make being a good Christian extremely difficult.

 

[Dchsknight]

A couple of things and I will post more in the morning.

Odale... First things first. You are coming off as inflammatory and emotional. You are pulling the word down to your level and then expecting it to fit your world view.

That is not right. You should force your world view to fit scripture. The fact that you called patriot mysoginistic means you are not in the right place to be apart of this conversation.

I suggest you calm down and pray about what you are saying.

What I would also like you to do Odale is this... My goal with this is not to convince you that I am right. But to drive you to the word of God. Tomorrow I will pull up more scripture that I feel supports the position of no women pastors. And that is my position, not that women are silent or just baby mills. That is quite silly to think that is what the bible says. What I ask you to do, Odale, is go to the scriptures and post the verses that support your position. Then we will go through them together. At the very least you will get into the word and read it and grow because of that. That alone worth this conversation. But you can not post scripture as to why you take your stand, there is no real point in talking your just gonna get mad.

I will post more tomorrow morning.

 

[Wolfeman]

If there is a scriptural basis or command for it, we need to make our thinking/actions/beliefs line up with the Bible. No matter how much we disagree with it. God has a reason for it and our limited understandings makes it very difficult to judge Him or His intentions.

God created Man and Woman. He gave them different roles (this was pointed out by the fact that women can squeeze a 10 lb baby out of their body and men can't) and responsibilities. This is easy to find throughout scripture including in the home, marrital relationship, family structure and in the church. This is why a man and a woman become one when they are married (and why homosexual marriage doesn't work in Gods eye. Different roles). Different roles and responsibilities is clear throughout scripture including the passages that have been mentioned already. Even if you don't like or understand the context, you have to agree they address women differently than men.

At this point, you have two choices. Accept what God says in the Bible you are using or find a Bible version/translation and teacher that agrees with you. Conform your life to the Bible or the Bible to your life.

 

[Icthus]

Just for fun and for you guys to really think about the entire witness of scripture I will offer the following. God appointed women to the role of Prophetess and gave them a title in these instances-
• Miriam -‐ Micah 4:6
• Deborah -‐ Judges 4:4
• Huldah -‐ Kings 22:14
• Isaiah’s wife -‐ Isaiah 8:3
• Ana -‐ Luke 2:36

This means they were teaching men. No way around it. Also from our friend Paul there is this small piece of a larger list of men and women leaders of the church-

1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. Romans 16:1-2

And for those of you who are KJV only do not even bring that text. The greek word Paul uses to describe Pheobe here is the same word used to describe Timothy. I put this here to save us all the time of that discussion. My purpose is not to agitate or prove anyone wrong. I only desire we look at the entire witness of scripture and God's redemptive plan and not cherry pick one or two passages.

It is quite clear in the witness of the Word and in the History of the Church women have played many roles. They have lead and been lead. The current understanding of women not being in leadership is more in common with the 1950's than with the 50's of Paul's time. I quick glance at any denomination's history, even the Baptist, will show you in the 1920's women served as leaders of many different organizations. I would encourage a better examination of both the Scriptures and history when discussing and making our views of women's role in God's redemptive plan.

Personally, I have been on all sides. I have been on a journey and I will continue to increase my knowledge of God's work. I do not have all the answers only what the Holy Spirit has given me in personal experience and divine communion.

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:18
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 2 Tim 2:23
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Titus 3:9

Grace and Peace,

 

[Dchsknight]

Amen icthus! As soon as I am able I will respond to what you wrote!

 

[Dchsknight]

So I want to address in this post Icthus.

so in the first part of what you wrote, you made of list of some women. Only 1 of those women matters and pertains to what we are talking about and that is Anna.

First off this is the woman who was at the temple when Jesus was brought to the temple for his ritual at 8 days old. This woman was a servant in the temple and a devout Jew. We know everything about her, and what you must note, this woman was not apart of the NT church, in any way shape or form. She would have been dead before Paul started any kind of actual church. She is noted through Church history and out side history to be any where from 84-105 years old. She had no leadership in the NT church, ever. So she is a bad example of leadership in the church and can not be used as an argument for women leadership. Because Temple=/=the early church.

next...

You list Phoebe. What a wonderful woman. She also had a high calling, She personally carried the letter of Romans. So first things first with her. She was trusted. She was at least grounded enough and strong enough in the faith to personally handle a part of the gospels and scriptures. What an amazing honor! Second she in the original greek was called a Servant not a deacon. Now the word used is "diakonos" which simple means servant. Now it is the same word where we derived the word Deacon, but they do not mean the same thing. According to Dr. David Cook and the Golden rule of Interpretation, the usual use of this word diakonos and the first use of this word literally means servant. One who serves. This is not a position of authority but quite the opposite. There for, according to proper hermeneutical study, this woman did not have a place of authority, but a place of servant hood ( which is not a bad thing or sexist, or derogatory)

I must stress context, context, context.

next....

There are other women that Paul mentions, Pircilla is one what comes to mind... and with what Paul states about her and other women in the NT church I want to bring another part of the Golden Rule of Interpretation into affect. In case you do not know what that rule is...

"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."


And I want to focus on this part...


unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.


It is clear that in the word of God women are mentioned as being teachers and such. There is no way that we can look at what Paul wrote and apply literal interpretation on the part of women being quite and just baby mills because of the other women listed in the bible. And it is silly and ignorant to think that is what Paul meant. Because the rest of Scripture says other wise.


What I am specifically standing on is the role of Women as PASTORS or Undershepherds. I am referring to the Direct leader of a church. Cannot be a woman.


Here is the scripture I think backs that up. First off we already know one, 1 Timothy.

The next is in 1 Timothy 3:1-7... and here it is ... And I am using ESV.


"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. "

Note the bold and underlined. In the Greek the word used is Aner. Which means "man, husband, sir" This is a specific male pronoun. Paul did not use an interchangeable word, but a specific one. meaning a man. Not a woman. Paul then uses the word in the verse for wife as Gyne, which means "a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow, a wife, a betrothed woman". This is also a specific pronoun used by Paul, it is not interchangeable. That also makes it impossible for a woman to be an overseer or Shepherd of a church, because a woman can not be married to a woman.

And in all other places that Paul uses to refer to the Overseer and Undershepherd, are all the male pronoun.

So by the Golden Rule of Interpretation, the normal use of the word Pastor refers to a man. And therefor the literal meaning is a man and not woman. And the qualifications of a Pastor as listed by Paul in 1 Timothy, excludes women.

I now have to go do a errand for my job, and I will have more to post soon responding to Odale.

 

[Icthus]

He is a fun fact for you.

I have a Master's level paper written on this subject to back up my thoughts. It has been peer reviewed and is used by many and agreed to by the majority.

Your systems is incomplete and inaccurate.

To blow off Deborah and others is unwise and shows short sightedness. Deborah lead the nation of Israel and told men what to do. How that is not pertaining to the discussion is beyond me.

You use of the Greek is weak. you use of aner is not correct. It has a much wider usage, a form of it is used for the title of Jesus, Son of Man. There are many Greek scholars who feel a translation of humanity is not out of the question. Deacon was a title in the Greek I used. It assigned a title to her in the way it is used in form and function. Just as deacon is a title later for a church office. And the word Pastor (particularly lead or senior pastor) does not appear in the Greek ever. To use overseer or Under-Shepard as the word we use in English is short sighted and show a lack of greater Greek usage. As a Lead Pastor, I can assure you the role most people expect of me is not anywhere in Scripture. The way we do American church is not anything like the first century. Thus, the need for context in both reading and applying the Word of God.

To use your context here- one could argue that I Tim is not church wide but written for the context where Timothy was serving. Therefore, the need to examine the entire record of scripture.

You use of context is completely based on in improper context. Being yours is right no other is correct. You use and knowledge of history and church history is lacking and not complete.

That being said, God can use anyone he wants to achieve which ever purpose he wants.

I have no problem with you saying a woman should not be a Pastor. I have a large problem is you say anyone who thinks a woman can pastor is living in sin or outside the will of God. That is folly and lacks humility of many many saints who do not agree with you.

I do appreciate your tone not being overly proud or argumentative. I do not appreciate your tone being belittling and the thought that comes across is you know more than others. This is simply wrong.

 

[Dchsknight]

Well Icthus, You and I are not in agreement. And that is fine.

I dont accept your what saying on the Greek words or context, because you are not linking any evidence for what you are saying.

You say i am incorrect but your not giving any proofs for it. Your still just saying "I am right, your wrong". If you think I am wrong, give me proof.

And I take offense at to what you saying about belittling. Because in the same post you do what you say i am doing. That is no better than name calling.

It is not name calling or belittling to call out people on sin. If what I am saying is true, which I believe it is based on the evidence I have presented, Then female pastors ARE living in sin.

If it is not dive into the scriptures and show me where I am wrong.

And it is not short sighted or unwise to blow off the judges. Because what is written in 1 timothy is about the NT church. A group of People under a different covenant. The judges and the other women you listed, where under a different covenant than you or I. OR are you saying that we should all apply the old covenants to everyone of all time. Because Paul sure did not think that way.

 

[Patriot]

Patriot, what you wrote is disgusting. I know plenty of women who are more brave, kind, able and many, many other good attributes than many men I know. Just because their physiology is different does not mean they are any less able than men are. Besides, that's not what 1 Tim 2 says, anyway.

I have enormous respect for women (especially my wife). You are injecting what you think I am saying into what I am actually saying. I said God created us to fulfill specific roles. I never said that women were in any way less capable than men. If anything, I was disparaging men who have shrugged off their god-given responsibility in order to act like big children while women are left to fill the void.

If God created women as more capable in some role but told men to do it anyway (or vice versa) then I would still say that people should follow the roles God made them for and instructed them to operate in. Because I trust that God knows far better than I do.

When you can expel a 10 pound human from your gut and only break a sweat in the process, get back to me. Until then, please keep your chauvinistic, archaic, and misogynistic beliefs to yourself.

Absurd. You make women's opinions and ideas more valid than men's because they bear children? I don't see how that applies to anything. Perhaps you would like to only 'debate' with people who completely agree with you?

I'd like you to explain how my ideas are "chauvinistic, archaic, and misogynistic" without reading your own thoughts into my text.

It's people like you that turned me away from Christianity, Patriot. You make being a good Christian extremely difficult.

Because I believe what the Bible says? Because I find following that more important than worrying about what you or the world think of me? Blaming Christians (i.e. fallible humans) for your issues with Christianity is illogical. If that was how it was supposed to be I would have quit long ago. Christianity is not about following other humans, it is about following Christ.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

[Off topic] Wow Patriot, Icthus and Odale haven't seen you guys post in while. Glad you are still around /hugs that is all . [/return to topic]

...and do try to play nice kids. Remember the goal of any Christian discussion should be to determine God's will and convince others of it not just "win and shut the other guy up". Discard self and earnestly pursue the truth in Christ.

 

[cc.slim]

Oh oh for reals no one got this and I do and I'm going to place it out for you. Key on the value of respect and to how on both sides it is to be used. I guess this is a lesson for Men and what they obviously fail to see. Note the surroundings and above all Whom is there.


Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

36One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to have dinner with him, so Jesus went to his home and sat down to eat. 37When a certain immoral woman from that city heard he was eating there, she brought a beautiful alabaster jar filled with expensive perfume. 38Then she knelt behind him at his feet, weeping. Her tears fell on his feet, and she wiped them off with her hair. Then she kept kissing his feet and putting perfume on them.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know what kind of woman is touching him. She’s a sinner!”

40Then Jesus answered his thoughts. “Simon,” he said to the Pharisee, “I have something to say to you.”

“Go ahead, Teacher,” Simon replied.

41Then Jesus told him this story: “A man loaned money to two people—500 pieces of silver to one and 50 pieces to the other. 42But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?”

43Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.”

“That’s right,” Jesus said. 44Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn’t offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You didn’t greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.

47“I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.” 48Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49The men at the table said among themselves, “Who is this man, that he goes around forgiving sins?”

50And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Now I can't express how humble reading this has me and I pray you see how Important this woman is to be part of a message continually shared with you and me. To late to say she can't teach me something for she taught me to Love Jesus like this and she'll teach you too.

 

[Dchsknight]

Cc.slim.... I like what you wrote. And I have the utmost respect for women.


But the passage you wrote does not have anything to do with women in the church and really is relevant to this conversation.

 

[Tek7]

Hello, all. As usual, I am late to the party, but I like to think today I am fashionably late. (Pardon; my attempts at levity rarely translate well.)

At this time and after careful thought, I have decided to not lock this thread; however, I wanted to post a few thoughts that I hope will influence further discussion, whether on this topic or others.

First and foremost, the question of whether or not God calls women to the role of pastor in local churches, while important and worthy of study and healthy debate, does not fall under the heading of essential doctrine. Put another way, the subject of gender roles in the church is not on par with the identity of Christ, the atoning work of Christ, or the core message of the Gospel.

Second and related, the Christian Gamers Alliance is an interdenominational community, meaning that opinions on non-essential doctrine will vary and sometimes vary wildly. This forum exists in part to discuss and debate points of non-essential doctrine while never losing sight of the essential doctrine that unites us.

Third, this seems as good a time as any to gently remind everyone that the assumption of intention often leads to communication breakdown. Disagreeing with someone is perfectly acceptable and debate can be a wonderful motivation to take a closer look at the Bible and seek to understand Scripture more clearly, not so that we may prove our own position or "win" an argument, but rather so we may align our views with those of Scripture and grow closer to the Author of the Word.

Fourth, please keep in mind that digital communication is limited. Online communications do not include crucial signals like tone and non-verbal cues. You would and should approach debate on a public online forum differently from debate with a friend face-to-face. That doesn't mean that debate should be discarded or avoided, but rather that all participants take special care how their words might be received. I'm not suggesting we avoid challenging fellow believer's opinions or beliefs on non-essential doctrine or bully others into feigning agreement or apathy, but that we recognize the power of words and seek others' benefit before our own.

Now, as for the topic itself, if anyone still wishes to discuss it, I believe it would benefit everyone involved to first define the term, "pastor." I suspect many, if not most, Christians would agree that all Christians, which, of course, includes women, are instructed to study Scripture and be ready to coherently proclaim and explain the Gospel and why we believe what we believe. But "pastor" is not strictly equivalent with "teacher." While pastors teach, they also exercise a measure of spiritual authority over local churches per God's design. It may be easy for Christians in America to lose sight of this because of trends in local churches and a shift away from thorny topics like church discipline, but clearly defining key words in a debate is essential. Some may have a specific definition of "pastor" in mind and assume that others are working by the same definition. This often leads to confusion and a quick downward spiral.

I would also argue that a broader view of Scripture, even a view that limits the role of pastor to men, would quickly dispel any accusations of sexism or misogyny. God used women frequently and powerfully to build His Kingdom in both the Old and New Testaments. God's redemptive work of salvation is available to both men and women and spans racial, geographic, and socioeconomic lines in a way that secular humanism seeks so desperately to emulate but consistently fails. Jesus' kind and loving treatment of women, children, and foreigners (including the much-maligned Samaritans) is not only in keeping with all Scripture, but also was revolutionary for its time. The question isn't whether or not God uses women to accomplish His goals, but rather whether or not he appoints women to the role of pastor.

And finally, I want most to dispel the myth that pastors are "more than" or "greater than" Christians who have not been called to ministry as a vocation. We--every single one of us--are called to surrender our lives unconditionally to God. God does not call every surrendered Christian to pastor a church; instead, He most often puts us to work where we are, this very day, to share the good news of the Gospel and advance His Kingdom. God may call you to sell everything you own, move to a distant country, and serve God as a missionary. That is one way He works. But, more often, He calls us to stay put and serve the people in our family, our neighborhood, and our city. One is not greater than the other. What matters most is obedience. Yes, pastors shoulder greater responsibilities, but that, again, does not make them "greater than" other Christians.

God has a work for us to do; let us seek Him and His will.