How did you ascertain your faith?

I don't know what you have heard.

It is more likely that you have rejected the message. Rejection of the message is also a rejection of the gift of faith that comes with it.
 
Care to throw me a bible verse or two to support that?
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jim @ Sep. 03 2004,11:05)]Sorry to bring this up again, but the topic of fate vs free will is important to me. It is one of the reasons I rejected religion (Should I make a new topic?)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] How do bad thing happen to good people. Simply FREE WILL , a big gorilla of a man could walk up to you and slap your teeth out. God did not allow that, it was the big gorilla of a man who chose not to walk in Gods way and hurt you. All God did was allow him to exercise his freewill.
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Along with:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You don't seem to understand. We don't believe in luck. Luck means that it was never in Gods hands to begin with. When you trust fully in God, you have no need for irrational concepts like luck, chance, or anything that takes God out of the picture and places it into the hands of something else. I believe that God causes or allows everything to happen for a reason.
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Isn't this a contradiction? On the one hand you have free will causing someone to come up and hit you, on the other, Thad is stating that there is no such thing as luck, chance or whatever. Again I present you the case of the violent mugging. Was this free will or fate? If it was free will, how can you state that bad things happen for a reason? And if it was fate, was the victim doomed to die from the start, and people like me, Bill and Dv all doomed to hell with no possible hope of recourse (Unless a miraculous event converts one or more of us)? And wouldn't fate contradict the idea that we are responsible for our own evil, our own sins?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also, I don't think I said that God made people do bad things. People make those choices to do good or bad deeds. God can use people either way in someone elses life.
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In a way, you did. You stated that there is no such thing as luck and chance. It is all ordained by God. Therefore a murder or a rape, whatever the positive outcomes later in the victim or criminals life, was also ordained by God. What kind of fate is it to require a rape in order to change you? or the death of a friend or family member to teach you?

Should I make a new thread? Maybe I'm branching too far away from the topic.
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The actions of the individual was free will. The person who did the rape, murder or <insert any action here> was based apon their free will to act.

Now I never said that God causes bad things to happen, your leaving out part of the context of what I said. I said that God causes or allows things to happen for a reason.


As for the divine picture, God knows everything begining to end. He knows what every person will do andwhat actions in their lives they will take. He knows the precise momen they will choose to accept His message. He knows those that will never accept the message. I believe that he uses people, like pharoh, that reject Him for His purpose. Does that mean He caused pharoh to turn from Him? No, pharoh made that choice. God just took the choice he made and used it. The God I believe in is Omniscient and Omnipotent, yet allows us to make our choices in our lives.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The actions of the individual was free will.  The person who did the rape, murder or <insert any action here> was based apon their free will to act.  
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 Somebody would call being robbed by an armed felon a bout with bad luck, but didn't the armed robber choose to rob the person.

Even if you don't believe in God, how do you explain bad things happening to good people?
 
Alright, who are you and what have you done to our Gods_Peon?  
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Off-topic, could someone give me a link to that story about Einstein in the clasroom as a student, stating that cold is a lack of heat, dark a lack of light etc? I've looked around the forum but can't find it again.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I believe that he uses people, like pharoh, that reject Him for His purpose. Does that mean He caused pharoh to turn from Him? No, pharoh made that choice. God just took the choice he made and used it.
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Oh come on now!

Why can't you just admit that God interceded and made it so Pharaoh wouldn't change his mind? GOD REMOVED PHAROAH'S FREE WILL BY HARDENING HIS HEART. How hard is that to admit to?

Look: "12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

This is rediculous, really. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so what he said to Moses would come true. Now exactly how much Free Will did Pharaoh have here? Zip. Zero. Zilch.

And yet again: "1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD .""

And now this time God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Moses would have a good bedtime story to tell his grandkids! Sorry dude, he once again removed Pharaoh's Free Will.

He did this FOUR more times.

Why can't you just admit that God interceded here?
 
This whole story is so very sad.

Not only did God harden Pharaoh's heart, but the hardened the hearts of the Egyptians so he could wipe them all out.

Now the only thing stupider than the Egyptians (why the the heck would you charge after people that were protected by an all powerful God) were the ever so retarded Israelites.  Were these geniuses really worth saving?  God should have chosen some brighter people.  Even after all these plagues that God visited upon Egypt, they STILL were afraid when Pharaoh came after them.  Geez louise, they're being protected by the Almighty!

So how would I know if God was hardening my heart to make an example out of me?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So how would I know if God was hardening my heart to make an example out of me?
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Dunno. You probably wouldn't be one questioning it. Atleast now you are openly aware that it could happen.

As for pharoh and is people, you might want to read the whole story.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1. And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
2. And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.
3. And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the Lord our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.
4. And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
5. And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
6. And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
7. Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.
8. And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.
9. Let there more work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard vain words.
10. And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spake to the people, saying, Thus saith Pharaoh, I will not give you straw.
11. Go ye, get you straw where ye can find it: yet not ought of your work shall be diminished.
12. So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble instead of straw.
13. And the taskmasters hasted them, saying, Fulfil your works, your daily tasks, as when there was straw.
14. And the officers of the children of Israel, which Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten, and demanded, Wherefore have ye not fulfilled your task in making brick both yesterday and to day, as heretofore?
15. Then the officers of the children of Israel came and cried unto Pharaoh, saying, Wherefore dealest thou thus with thy servants?
16. There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick: and, behold, thy servants are beaten; but the fault is in thine own people.
17. But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the Lord.
18. Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks.
19. And the officers of the children of Israel did see that they were in evil case, after it was said, Ye shall not minish ought from your bricks of your daily task.
20. And they met Moses and Aaron, who stood in the way, as they came forth from Pharaoh:
21. And they said unto them, The Lord look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
22. And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me?
23. For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.
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pharoh chose to do evil unto Gods people when Moses and Aaron came to pharoh just to allow them 3 days to worship. Pharohs choice was made that day. God just solidified it. Would pharoh have given in during the 7 plagues? We will never know.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]pharoh chose to do evil unto Gods people when Moses and Aaron came to pharoh just to allow them 3 days to worship.  Pharohs choice was made that day.  God just solidified it.  Would pharoh have given in during the 7 plagues?  We will never know.
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LOL, once again you're dancing around the facts.

I never denied that Pharaoh was a horrible person to start with.  The point I have trying and trying to make is that God never gave Pharaoh a chance to change his mind.  "We will never know" you said.  WHY will we never know?  Because God took away Pharaoh's ability to make a decision.  Why is that so hard for you to admit?

Thanks for the link GP, it was a good read. It doesn't, however, change anything. "In pharaoh's case, it is clear from the first 4-5 self-hardenings, that what Pharaoh wanted was 'a hard heart' toward the claims of the God of the Universe (remember, the Pharaoh was God himself in Egyptian religion of those days). In this case, God granted this in spades--but USED THAT to get the message of God out to masses and masses of people." God still interferes and removes Pharaoh's ability to make a decision. Does He not?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] God still interferes and removes Pharaoh's ability to make a decision. Does He not?
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The choice was made, was it not? How did God take it away from him after he already made it?

Cory
 
Ok...this is really the only comment I'll attempt to make, since I've been in these discussions before, and they really don't tend to lead anywhere. But for those non-Christians out there who won't bash me for "copping out" by using Scripture to back up something (despite the fact that many of you find the Bible error-laden and a contradictory pile of poo, yada yada yada...), the book of Romans puts forth some really cool things.

One thing I came across was Romans 9. Besides the fact that all of Romans is an absolutely incredible epistle, Romans 9 struck me, and challenged me, especially 22-24:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Isn't that kind of scary that some of us may be objects of wrath? Yet Paul goes on in chapter 10...

"Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

Wow. And he continues in verse 11...

"The scripture says, 'No one who believes in him will be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. For, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'"

My goodness...so, could Pharaoh, for instance, have been an "object of wrath"? Would God have changed His mind if Pharaoh had called upon Him?

Could you, Dark Virtue, for instance, be an object of wrath? Would God change His mind if you called upon Him?

There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense in the Christian faith, I know. But, a while ago I came across something in C.S. Lewis' book The Silver Chair (which, in case you didn't know, is part of the Chronicles of Narnia, a great fantasy series and Christian allegory). A character named Puddleglum is in the process of being bewitched, and he soon snaps out of it to make this statement:

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said, coming back from the fire; limping because of the pain. 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put on the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.'"

So there you go. My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So there you go. My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.
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Well Said Tasty, well said.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God still interferes and removes Pharaoh's ability to make a decision.  Does He not?
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No, Pharaoh was like Jim Kerry, a flip flop.  Waffled on the subject.  Today he says "Okay" to the Isrealites, Tomorrow he says "Noway".  God simply placed his royal waffleness in a position that his flip flopiness would serve Gods purpose.  Now there is a house of pancakes for you.  God hardened pharaohs heart, not necessarily because he stepped all over pharaohs freewill, but because that is what pharaoh wanted.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TastyWheat @ Sep. 04 2004,10:22)]So there you go.  My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.  
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I don't believe that what we 'want' to be true should factor in to our decision on what 'is' true.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 04 2004,9:42)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] God still interferes and removes Pharaoh's ability to make a decision.  Does He not?
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The choice was made, was it not?  How did God take it away from him after he already made it?

Cory
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You are truly a stubborn, stubborn man.

Yes, Pharaoh made a choice, I never denied that.

What I have been saying, and you have been avoiding, is that God removed Pharaoh's ability to CHANGE HIS MIND. You know, that little thing called Free Will?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So there you go. My made up world with an all-powerful, loving God may be a pile of horse manure, but it sure beats the crap out of your world of intellectual dogmatism.
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I can't believe you actually said that and I truly hope you don't honestly believe that.

Basically you're saying that you chose the blue pill and are happy and content to live in the Matrix. Sure, it's a made up construct, but even with all the evils of the made up world, it's a hell of a lot more comforting than facing a world without your God.

Live in your little made up world then, I for one will choose rationalism.
 
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