Lies

[Master~Plan]

The force of History cares not for who is right, it cares for who is left.

Either that, or hes right....

There will come a day, when your religion is the downtrodden minority too, you know.

I know, because there is prophecy that says so. And as far as I see, it is already.

 

[Dark Virtue]

And as far as I see, it is already.

Care to explain that?

Christians have a habit of doing the "woe is me" bit. How is Christianity a minority, downtrodden religion? ESPECIALLY in the US?

 

[Eon]

I think that's hillarious. Victimed minority compared to who, exactly?

Honestly - you should try being a pagan sometime.

 

[ChickenSoup]

The force of History cares not for who is right, it cares for who is left.

There will come a day, when your religion is the downtrodden minority too, you know. I only hope the Starchildren or whoever it turns out to be are more benevolent than you are.

In the words of TobyMac, "We've been on a roll for two-thousand years or so!"

(we got MOMENTUM, BABY)

 

[Razi_Alaster]

Hello everyone. I just joined these forums and am extremely impressed with what I've seen so far. Never have I seen a forum with any sort of topic that has the word "Religion" in it, result in a mature discussion. My compliments indeed.

I'm am very happy to have a chance to discuss my faith, views, opinions, concerns, morals, and what have you, and have a chance to compare them with yours. Possibly opening my mind to different ways of thinking about different topics, and I hope I might be able to do the same to a few.

An important note before I start. Up until a short while ago I wouldn't have considered myself a born again Christian, even though I professed it. Infact I didn't like alot of what I saw in the Christian community and was leaning towards the weak athiest. It was just that I grew up in a missionary home and was saturated by Christian influences. As I grew up I decided to take my own path, because the Christain way didn't seem genuine. In short, my family was the one thing that did stay consistent and genuine and I love them all the more for it, and so things changed in my life. A story for another time.

I've also just read through this entire thread in one sitting and its a very fascinating topic and interesting read, minus some teetor-tottering about logic.

This here quote by Dark Virtue below, seems to nicely summarize the basis of this discussion from my eyes as I read through the thread.

A Freethinker is one who basis their decisions apart from authority and religious dogma. Since Christians are entirely dependant on their religious dogma, they can't be a Freethinker. You can be Christian or a Freethinker, but not both, they are mutually exclusive.

There has been lots of "defining of the terms" in this thread, so I'll continue the trend if you don't mind.

From what I see, the reason there is division and a stale-mate among us regarding that quote, is because there appears to be a disagreement on the definition and view of what "Free or Freedom" is and what "Religion, Religous" means.

At this time in my life, I am uncapable of giving a clear-cut definition of either for I am researching and trying to understand both for myself. I would love to here your voices on both.

Here are my thoughts: Everyone appears to have a different definition of Freedom and I can clearly see it in this thread as well. And if Religion is so special and "Holy", too much of its dark past and divisons confuse me and keeps me from seeing this point of view. "Religion" as its commonly precieved as, in itself, is faulty. By itself, is empty, man-made and does no more to prevent discord among people then when there is no "Religion" at all. This leads me to believe that by choosing religion or no religion is irrelevant. It will make no difference at all, the outcome seems to be the same either way for better or for worse. Religion is very perplexing to me. You can literally define anyway of life as a religion or religious. I've seen music being defined as different types of religion. I've see martials arts being defined as religion. I've see the military being defined as religion. I've seen Yoga being defined as religion. I've seen sports being defined as religion. Even Demoncracy and Communism being defined as religion. I've also had many people tell me they are religous, tell me what they believe, then proceed to contradict almost everything they just told me they believe in. I think they should define the term belief for themselves. This saldy attains to mainly Christians I've met in my life. By looking at history. By looking at the world today. By looking at what the future might hold. I can do without religion to be honest. Which is going to make my next paragraph perplexing both to you and me. Which makes me try all the more to understand what religion is. The more and more I look at it. The more and more I see it as a dangerous thing and an evil influence and divider among people. As well as perhaps, if you believe in, Satan's biggest hold on this earth? Just a thought. More evil and harm has come from religion than any other source. There is good, I'm not denying that. Its just a very, very sharp double edge sword.

As for freedom, I'll agree with you. I am fully dependant on and influenced by Christ and God's Word. There is no two ways about it, you are fully correct in saying so. I have chosen to accept God's offer to join the Kingdom of Heaven and therefore, I am a slave to Christ and am proud to announce this. I'm His servant to do with as he see's fit. Using my free will, I have voluntarily given myself to Christ as his slave. I believe that everyone has the gift of free will. Therefore, and I know some will disagree, but that is all you need in order to fall under the definition of a freethinker. Free to choose his/her path regardless of influences, enviroment, etc, even if you grew up in the most saturated Christian, Hindu, Shaolin, Buddist enviroment. Some still might disagree, because they will say I've altered the definition of a Freethinker. True, I have. If the quote is true and thats the absolute true definition of a freethinker. I'm afraid that right from birth, I've never had the option of becoming a freethinker, because I was heavily satured and isolated in a Christian enviroment. So much so that no matter how far I went and how hard I tryed, I could not get away from its influence. Anyone growing up in a saturated enviroment has been influenced a tonne and are most probable to join in. You ultimately still have a choice whether you will or won't. If what that quote is saying is true, then I did not have the choice or couldn't make my choice without being apart from religion and therefore do not have the gift of freewill. That quote states that if I don't make my decisions apart from "religion", then I'm not a freethinker. Simply having the ability of free will, in my opinion, makes you a freethinker. So being a "Freethinker" isn't a big concern to me. I couldn't escape the influence, nor could I control the enviroment I was born into. I had no choice in that matter. I'm equally not concerned anymore about being a freethinker because I already made my "free" choice to become a slave to Christ. I'm proud to follow Jesus and have vowed to give Him my entire life. I've tried the other path (see next paragraph) to be God free. God didn't measure up. I didn't have enough proof. I still don't have any. Whats changed is that I don't need any anymore. God has helped me through some really stresseful and hards times to understand just a tiny sample of who He is. And now that I've gotten a glimpse and have understood who He really is, I wouldn't have it any other way. Now you might ask me, "Who is God? Thats actually the biggest lessoned I learned in the past few years. Only God can show and tell me who He is. That was my biggest frustration. Nobody could give me a decent answer or proof. I took 2 years of Bible school and came out of it more bitter and convinced God wasn't real. If a human was able to fully comprehende and tell me who God was, well that would place that human above God in knowledge and wisdom. I finally had to face the fact that I wasn't going to be able to comprehende God. He will always be a mystery to me. What I do know of him, though, Is enough for me to sacrifice my life to Him.

Now my thoughts on proving God's existence.

I believe God has given us a choice regarding Him. Even if you don't believe in God, I think its safe to say that everyone has a choice regarding God since there is almost no way to live your entire life without hearing about God in one way, shape, or form. Correct or am I mistaken?

The choice is this: To believe in Him and that He does exist or to believe He doesn't exist. Simple. The complex part is getting to know who He is, atleast I've found it much more complex. Either way, without God's hand involved or in complete control for that matter, according to a Christian's view, there is no way to prove God exists to a person who has chosen not to believe. Likewise there is no way for a non-Christian to prove to a believing member of the Kingdom of heaven that God doesn't exist. This here discussion is a stale-mate no matter which angle you look at it and I also must add I no longer feel that there is a gray area. I've come to realize that there is only Black and White regarding this choice. It is pointless for Christians to try, by ourselves, to prove God's existence and vise versa. I feel the only way to find proof is to look to God Himself. Ok, sounds nice and all, but what does that mean and how in the world do you even do that? I'm not entirely sure. I have to admit I've had a very similar experience to that of Dark Virtue:

You don't know how much effort I put in, or the state of my heart as I knelt, crying, begging to a god that never revealed himself to me. Ask and you shall find. I asked and found nothing.

Eight years later and a tonne of frustration and doing what pleased me, because "this stupid God won't show himself to me no matter what I do". God some how got my heart to the place where I was willing to go to someone for help and advice as a last ditch effort. And then I sought out the most reliable and genuine Christians I knew, my family. I think what is important here is the state of my heart had change and the advice actually happened be a cliche I've heard over and over again. This time though, it was different. What I did finally come to realize is that God IS the Word. Literally. I never had a clue of what that statement meant before. God is the Word and the Word is God. In the grand scheme of things, God gave us the Bible and Jesus to show us who He is and chose it as the main means of communication to us so he could tell us the "Good News". The purpose of the Bible is actually that simple. It is the proof, believe it or not. Until God helped me understand some things and my perspective on life and God, started to shift, I didn't understand a thing from the Bible. It was all just the same words and cliche's over and over again no matter how many times I prayed and read the Bible. It grew extremely frustrating. Oddly enough, that was the proof I needed, the Bible. Unfortunatly I know that most people who will read this won't be affected the same way I was. As I mentioned before, I believe the biggest thing was that the Lord prepared my heart in just the right way, be it over eight years, to recieve that message in an entirely new way. The message was the same as it always was, but I was different.

And finally, I must admit this post took me about 6 hours, a couple of which were reading the thread, to put together. I was pretty nervous and wanted to read through everyones posts thoroughly and pick my words carefully. I used to never get involved in these discussions because they generally just angered and frustrated me, from BOTH sides. There was just something special about this one. I really admire the maturity level and self-control of this group to post while still speaking with passion and from the heart.

(I guess I had a lot to say after all. Didn't mean for it to be that long. Remember these are my thoughts as they are right now. I'm still working through thoughts and searching for more answers. This as it stands is what makes the most sense to me out of all the options I've researched and tried out. If this is too long or way to far off topic, could I request that is be moved to a different thread so we can continue this awesome discussion? Thanks.)

 

[astrod00d]

The force of History cares not for who is right, it cares for who is left.

It's a good thing the force of God is contrary to the 'force of History'. For when the righteous are raptured, it is you who will be left. As for me, I don't want to be a part of history, I want to be everlasting.

 

[Genesis1315]

Hi Razi, welcome to CGA. I am glad you have enjoyed the discussions here on our forum. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me. I am the Moderator for RD. Two more (hopefully) are also going to be joining us.

In response Eon, as someone who has been on both sides of the fence, while I do think that pagans are more of a minority that Christians, I have met many Christians who are Christians on Dec 25 and again from mid-March through mid-April. Yes, I know that those time coincide with pagan holidays. The Faith is much deeper than that and those who do hold Jesus in their heart can be hard to find.

I think we need another pole to see how many truely know what lies behind the mainstream Christian holidays.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hello everyone. I just joined these forums and am extremely impressed with what I've seen so far. Never have I seen a forum with any sort of topic that has the word "Religion" in it, result in a mature discussion. My compliments indeed.

WELCOME ABOARD!

There has been lots of "defining of the terms" in this thread, so I'll continue the trend if you don't mind.

Would you mind giving us your definition of Christian?

As for freedom, I'll agree with you. I am fully dependant on and influenced by Christ and God's Word. There is no two ways about it, you are fully correct in saying so. I have chosen to accept God's offer to join the Kingdom of Heaven and therefore, I am a slave to Christ and am proud to announce this. I'm His servant to do with as he see's fit. Using my free will, I have voluntarily given myself to Christ as his slave. I believe that everyone has the gift of free will. Therefore, and I know some will disagree, but that is all you need in order to fall under the definition of a freethinker.

Free to choose his/her path regardless of influences, enviroment, etc, even if you grew up in the most saturated Christian, Hindu, Shaolin, Buddist enviroment. Some still might disagree, because they will say I've altered the definition of a Freethinker. True, I have. If the quote is true and thats the absolute true definition of a freethinker. I'm afraid that right from birth, I've never had the option of becoming a freethinker, because I was heavily satured and isolated in a Christian enviroment. So much so that no matter how far I went and how hard I tryed, I could not get away from its influence. Anyone growing up in a saturated enviroment has been influenced a tonne and are most probable to join in. You ultimately still have a choice whether you will or won't. If what that quote is saying is true, then I did not have the choice or couldn't make my choice without being apart from religion and therefore do not have the gift of freewill. That quote states that if I don't make my decisions apart from "religion", then I'm not a freethinker. Simply having the ability of free will, in my opinion, makes you a freethinker. So being a "Freethinker" isn't a big concern to me. I couldn't escape the influence, nor could I control the enviroment I was born into. I had no choice in that matter. I'm equally not concerned anymore about being a freethinker because I already made my "free" choice to become a slave to Christ. I'm proud to follow Jesus and have vowed to give Him my entire life. I've tried the other path (see next paragraph) to be God free. God didn't measure up. I didn't have enough proof. I still don't have any. Whats changed is that I don't need any anymore. God has helped me through some really stresseful and hards times to understand just a tiny sample of who He is. And now that I've gotten a glimpse and have understood who He really is, I wouldn't have it any other way. Now you might ask me, "Who is God? Thats actually the biggest lessoned I learned in the past few years. Only God can show and tell me who He is. That was my biggest frustration. Nobody could give me a decent answer or proof. I took 2 years of Bible school and came out of it more bitter and convinced God wasn't real. If a human was able to fully comprehende and tell me who God was, well that would place that human above God in knowledge and wisdom. I finally had to face the fact that I wasn't going to be able to comprehende God. He will always be a mystery to me. What I do know of him, though, Is enough for me to sacrifice my life to Him.

I don't understand why it was necessary to redefine the term just so you could be a part of it. That's like me redefining the term Christian so I would fit under it. Why the need to define yourself with a term that doesn't fit religiousity at all?

[quoteI believe God has given us a choice regarding Him. Even if you don't believe in God, I think its safe to say that everyone has a choice regarding God since there is almost no way to live your entire life without hearing about God in one way, shape, or form. Correct or am I mistaken?[/quote]

You are mistaken.

While you might be able to argue that point today, how many people have lived before the Information Age that never heard the word of God? How many before the printing press made bibles ubiquitous?

The choice is this: To believe in Him and that He does exist or to believe He doesn't exist. Simple.

Simple? Depends on how you look at it. I prefer to embrace intellectual honesty and NOT believe in things that I can't prove. If you ask me to do otherwise then I should have to believe in Odin, Allah, Ea, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, et al. Or are you asking me to bend my need for proof for your God only? Look down, you're standing on thin ice.

Either way, without God's hand involved or in complete control for that matter, according to a Christian's view, there is no way to prove God exists to a person who has chosen not to believe.

Vicious cycle...are you saying you can only believe in God if God wills it?

Hmmm...then you are either saying that God has not willed me to believe in him or I am an apostate.

I've come to realize that there is only Black and White regarding this choice.

CHOOSING to see only black and white does not make it so.

It is pointless for Christians to try, by ourselves, to prove God's existence and vise versa.

Hmmm...then why do Christians feel it is their God given right to do so?

Eight years later and a tonne of frustration and doing what pleased me, because "this stupid God won't show himself to me no matter what I do". God some how got my heart to the place where I was willing to go to someone for help and advice as a last ditch effort. And then I sought out the most reliable and genuine Christians I knew, my family. I think what is important here is the state of my heart had change and the advice actually happened be a cliche I've heard over and over again. This time though, it was different. What I did finally come to realize is that God IS the Word. Literally. I never had a clue of what that statement meant before. God is the Word and the Word is God. In the grand scheme of things, God gave us the Bible and Jesus to show us who He is and chose it as the main means of communication to us so he could tell us the "Good News". The purpose of the Bible is actually that simple. It is the proof, believe it or not. Until God helped me understand some things and my perspective on life and God, started to shift, I didn't understand a thing from the Bible. It was all just the same words and cliche's over and over again no matter how many times I prayed and read the Bible. It grew extremely frustrating. Oddly enough, that was the proof I needed, the Bible. Unfortunatly I know that most people who will read this won't be affected the same way I was. As I mentioned before, I believe the biggest thing was that the Lord prepared my heart in just the right way, be it over eight years, to recieve that message in an entirely new way. The message was the same as it always was, but I was different.

Just a point of clarification...are you saying that God is the reason I don't beileve in him?

And finally, I must admit this post took me about 6 hours, a couple of which were reading the thread, to put together. I was pretty nervous and wanted to read through everyones posts thoroughly and pick my words carefully. I used to never get involved in these discussions because they generally just angered and frustrated me, from BOTH sides. There was just something special about this one. I really admire the maturity level and self-control of this group to post while still speaking with passion and from the heart.

Again, welcome aboard, and THANK YOU for sharing, that's what makes this board work.

 

[Razi_Alaster]

Vicious cycle...are you saying you can only believe in God if God wills it?

I do. He says that He wills everyone to believe in Him. He also says He promises to give us a choice to accept Him or not and that its in our hands to chose, but he's laid it on the table. I believe that choice is through faith. Faith is something that can't be explained logically, yet is essential in having a relationship with Him. God wants us to have real trust and faith in Him. He says "Blessed are those who have not seen and believed".

Though I don't think this answer will clearify much. I'll have to think and pray about it some more. Faith is difficult to understand especially if you want to have complete control over every aspect of your life. In this circumstance, faith is completely absent. Which makes it impossible to have a relationship with God. I believe He's designed it specifically this way, because its the best possible way to have a genuine relationship with Him. How could you fully trust someone you don't have any faith in?

Would you mind giving us your definition of Christian?

Well, to be labeled a Christian is a man-made term, which I respect, value and embrace. But the label itself is irrelevant in God's eyes. He looks at the condition of the heart regardless of how other men see him. There were no Christians before Christ came to earth, they simply believed in the God of Isreal which is the same God then as He is today. I believe in the God of Israel and that Jesus is His son. I call myself a Christian because that is how this world recognizes us. A Chrisitan is a person who is a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. They are a member of the Kingdom of Heaven in which Jesus so frequently spoke about. Again they are a slave to Christ. This is a good thing. They have realized that they need Jesus' sacrifice to cleanse their sins and have chosen to recieve this gift and accept it. By doing so being freed from slavery to sin and entered into the Kingdom. We are all sinners, no one is above anyone else. Only the people who don't believe they are wronfully place themselves above the rest. How can one recieve Jesus or God if they don't feel they need Him? Thats one of the biggest messages the Bible and Jesus' life tryed to get across to us.

I don't understand why it was necessary to redefine the term just so you could be a part of it. That's like me redefining the term Christian so I would fit under it. Why the need to define yourself with a term that doesn't fit religiousity at all?

Your right. I did change the man made term. I find it interesting how its been specifically worded, by men, this way so that God is completely pushed out of the picture during the decision making process. I have no desire to make any decisions without God, you know this. I'm not intrested in fitting in with the world's views. This world has shown me more then enough proof not to put my faith in it, no nation has everlasted. I did state that I wasn't concerned about being a freethinker.

CHOOSING to see only black and white does not make it so[/QOUTE]

What made the man/men who defined the term freethinker to be different? I'm also a man. I chose to laydown that decision and believe it to be true through experience and careful research and thought, like many other desicions I have made. Just like the man who decided to define freethinker. This man was no different from me or you. Why do you choose to so sternly put your faith and trust in someone you don't even know or have met? Thats what I've chosen to do in God. How do you know that man is not way off to lunch?

Just a point of clarification...are you saying that God is the reason I don't beileve in him?

I think there's a little bit of ignorance in you as well. You say you see it in us and its true as well. We believe in something that isn't of this world, but that is based on faith. Naturally there will be some ignorance and subborness when trying to be talked out of it.

You didn't read my post very well if I have to clarify my opinion of freewill again. Out of curiosity, because it might help to clear some things up. Do you believe in freewill? With and without God?

Hmmm...then why do Christians feel it is their God given right to do so?

Thats not for me to answer. I don't need to defend God and I can't for that matter. Ask the people who feel this way if you would like to know why a Christian feels he has the responsibility to defend God or even the ability. God knows what He's doing an why he's set life up this way. I used to feel he wasn't doing a good enough job at showing Himself, so I figured I was going to "help" God someday. Found out, thats not my place.

Simple? Depends on how you look at it. I prefer to embrace intellectual honesty and NOT believe in things that I can't prove. If you ask me to do otherwise then I should have to believe in Odin, Allah, Ea, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, et al. Or are you asking me to bend my need for proof for your God only? Look down, you're standing on thin ice.

Your free to believe in whom you want, your a freethinker. Faith is very thin ice. In fact it was even water a one point (Matthew 14:25-32).

While you might be able to argue that point today, how many people have lived before the Information Age that never heard the word of God? How many before the printing press made bibles ubiquitous?

Now this one is a tough one to answer or even comprehende for myself. May I suggest an interesting thought though? How many people groups, tribes, nations, etc, do you know of that didn't worship, believe in, or acknowledge a god in some way, shape, or form before the information age?

You have an amazing mind Dark Virture, I really enjoy talking to you. Thank you for being cooperative.

 

[Master~Plan]

Care to explain that?

If you consider everyone a Christian because they once said they are, then I guess I am wrong, but there has been a past discrepincy on the term around these forums

Christians have a habit of doing the "woe is me" bit. How is Christianity a minority, downtrodden religion? ESPECIALLY in the US?

exactly, I can't stand those cry babies....

I think that's hillarious. Victimed minority compared to who, exactly?

I was targeted as one to pose as victim, so the answer to this question would only promote the notion. I'm glad you got a laf out of it though, I was not bieng satirical

Honestly - you should try being a pagan sometime.

like all the holywood actors?

True, I have. If the quote is true and thats the absolute true definition of a freethinker. I'm afraid that right from birth, I've never had the option of becoming a freethinker, because I was heavily satured and isolated in a Christian enviroment. So much so that no matter how far I went and how hard I tryed, I could not get away from its influence. Anyone growing up in a saturated enviroment has been influenced a tonne and are most probable to join in. You ultimately still have a choice whether you will or won't. If what that quote is saying is true, then I did not have the choice or couldn't make my choice without being apart from religion and therefore do not have the gift of freewill. That quote states that if I don't make my decisions apart from "religion", then I'm not a freethinker. Simply having the ability of free will, in my opinion, makes you a freethinker. So being a "Freethinker" isn't a big concern to me. I couldn't escape the influence, nor could I control the enviroment I was born into. I had no choice in that matter. I'm equally not concerned anymore about being a freethinker because I already made my "free" choice to become a slave to Christ.

^yeah

And finally, I must admit this post took me about 6 hours

usually when I see a post as long and dense as yours I speed read and pull key points, but I guess I'm drawn to your writting style. I read and thought about all of it. rest assured it wasn't 6 hours for nothing.

I don't understand why it was necessary to redefine the term just so you could be a part of it. That's like me redefining the term Christian so I would fit under it. Why the need to define yourself with a term that doesn't fit religiousity at all?

I'm pretty sure he was saying if that is the definition of "freethinker", then its not a choice, but a catagory your born into. eg. Not something that can be controlled