Lord- Atheist –Service

[dattaswami]

Lord- Atheist –Service

Building is there. Implies Builder should be there. Creation is there. Creator should be there. I can see the building, which is in front of my eyes, but builder need not stand in front of the building. He will be in his own job. If you want to meet the builder, you should definitely put effort to locate the builder and see him. Likewise Creation is there in front of our eyes. But have we put anytime effort to locate and identify the creator? Instead of that, with least effort we can propagate to others also that God is not there. They are not only blinded, they are making others also blinded.

Some people who are theists may become prey for the propagation of this ignorance also unfortunately. The greatest sin on the earth is to be unfaithful.

To identify the builder you should know the identification marks, where he lives, what he does etc.. and we have to enquire if we don't know. i.e., knowledge is required to identify any person. This knowledge is called divine knowledge if the aim is to identify the Lord, which actually only is to be propagated.

Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive and we human beings are enjoying the creation. Like through nice parents, wife, children, beautiful nature consisting of pleasant looking mountains, rivers, sea, nature, changing weather etc.

If we cannot please the Lord, the human life is incomplete. We serve our family members by spending our hard earned money and also physically. Are we not serving family as Servant, and these family members are nearly equal to us. Where as, Lord is omnipotent and requires no help from us, many times satisfied our desires, saved us from mishaps etc. and if we cannot bow our head in front of Him, it is very ridiculous. It is very great honour to serve Him, this is the path followed by His real devotees. These real devotees could overcome ego and always wants to serve Him as servant.

Jesus preached the gospel and His followers participated in His mission as servants for further propagation of divine knowledge. These great devotees never hesitated to serve Lord Jesus and their names have also been known even today.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

 

[Dark Virtue]

Datt, you make a horrible, incorrect assumption that atheists have not searched for God, or gods in general. Many atheists were once theists. I was once Christian. I believe that puts me in a unique position to see both sides of the fence, and only now after experiencing both sides can I be truly objective.

You are also incorrect when you state, "
Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive" That is not true. Doesn't the Bible state that we were created for a purpose: to honor and serve God? Sounds like a selfish motive to me.

What makes human existence "incomplete" without serving an ethereal master?

 

[Snake_Six]

DV, you have made the horrible assumption that you can 'stop' being a Christian.
You say that you were a Christian once, if you truly were than God will bring you back to the Faith. Otherwise you weren't a True Christian.
While a True Christian can fall away for a time, they will always be brought back. There can be no true apostosy in Christianity. This is addressed in the Parable of the Sower.
Four kinds of soil (hearers of the Word) are mentioned. Only one is a true Christian, the "Good Soil." All the others aren't True Christians.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

(Mod note)

If you are going to chat about each others particualr beliefs. That is, relating to the individual. PLease do it via PM. If you are discussing beleifs in general that is ok..

 

[Hmmmm]

DV, you have made the horrible assumption that you can 'stop' being a Christian.
You say that you were a Christian once, if you truly were than God will bring you back to the Faith. Otherwise you weren't a True Christian.
While a True Christian can fall away for a time, they will always be brought back. There can be no true apostosy in Christianity. This is addressed in the Parable of the Sower.
Four kinds of soil (hearers of the Word) are mentioned. Only one is a true Christian, the "Good Soil." All the others aren't True Christians.

That is indeed true. Note: I am talking about Christianity in general, not pointing at anyone.

 

[the_great_eskimo_pie]

No need to make a note.

 

[Snake_Six]

You are also incorrect when you state, "
Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive" That is not true. Doesn't the Bible state that we were created for a purpose: to honor and serve God? Sounds like a selfish motive to me.

What makes human existence "incomplete" without serving an ethereal master?

God can be selfish and still be good. God is the ultimate being, He worships Himself. We were created to bring Glory and Honor to God, as if He needed it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV, you have made the horrible assumption that you can 'stop' being a Christian.
You say that you were a Christian once, if you truly were than God will bring you back to the Faith. Otherwise you weren't a True Christian.
While a True Christian can fall away for a time, they will always be brought back. There can be no true apostosy in Christianity. This is addressed in the Parable of the Sower.
Four kinds of soil (hearers of the Word) are mentioned. Only one is a true Christian, the "Good Soil." All the others aren't True Christians.

Would you mind defining what a "true" Christian is?

 

[Dark Virtue]

God can be selfish and still be good. God is the ultimate being, He worships Himself. We were created to bring Glory and Honor to God, as if He needed it.

Where do you get that God worships himself? Do you have scriptural reference for that?

 

[Snake_Six]

God is Holy. He is utterly sinless, He cannot sin. He is perfect. Doesn't it follow that He would worship Himself?

A True Christian is one of God's elect to whom He has given a new nature.

 

[Goose62]

God is Holy. He is utterly sinless, He cannot sin. He is perfect. Doesn't it follow that He would worship Himself?

No. I can honestly say I don't know the answer to this question, but I cannot ever remembering reading anything in the Bible saying this. I don't know where you got this idea from. My thinking would be that He has no need to worship Himself, especially considering that's a reason why He created angels and humans.

 

[Avesther]

You are also incorrect when you state, "
Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive" That is not true. Doesn't the Bible state that we were created for a purpose: to honor and serve God? Sounds like a selfish motive to me.

Is he incorrect or not? "Sounds like a selfish motive to me." is at best a whishy washy counter arguement. So, I'll make the assumption that you meant to say:

Being created for the purpose of honouring and serving God is a selfish motive.

That to me is quite a bit more of an affirmative statement of your position. Of course, this statement would be predicated on the assumption that our only sole purpose of being created is to serve and honor God. And if this assumption is wrong and that there is more to the relationship, so would your assertion of it being selfish. So do you know for a fact that the only purpose of creation is to honor and serve God? If you don't, then your own statement is also incorrect.

I think at best, you don't know if the assertion of the "Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive" is correct or not.

 

[Snake_Six]

My thinking would be that He has no need to worship Himself, especially considering that's a reason why He created angels and humans.

He had no need of their/our worship either. He doesn't need us at all. I don't know why he created us as we have caused Him nothing but pain, but He did.
I really don't need an answer, I know He did create us and that's good enough for me.

I don't really know where I got the "God worships Himself" idea, but it seems right to me. I'll try to find some proof.

 

[Dark Virtue]

God is Holy. He is utterly sinless, He cannot sin. He is perfect. Doesn't it follow that He would worship Himself?

NO, it doesn't follow. I'm assuming you have no scriptural reference for that statement?

A True Christian is one of God's elect to whom He has given a new nature.

So how are Roman Catholics not True Christians? The seem to fit your definition.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Is he incorrect or not? "Sounds like a selfish motive to me." is at best a whishy washy counter arguement. So, I'll make the assumption that you meant to say:

Being created for the purpose of honouring and serving God is a selfish motive.

That to me is quite a bit more of an affirmative statement of your position. Of course, this statement would be predicated on the assumption that our only sole purpose of being created is to serve and honor God. And if this assumption is wrong and that there is more to the relationship, so would your assertion of it being selfish. So do you know for a fact that the only purpose of creation is to honor and serve God? If you don't, then your own statement is also incorrect.

I think at best, you don't know if the assertion of the "Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive" is correct or not.

It was my understanding that the angels, and man, were made to glorify God. I did a quick google search and found quite a few web sites where Christians state the same thing. Here are a few quotes:

The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever.

Because we are all made to glorify God

Man was created to glorify God through the exercise of his personality—mind, heart, and will.

Question. 1. What is the chief end of man?

Answer. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.

I could go on, but I think that's sufficient.

You asked if I thought this was our SOLE purpose. I'm sure you could come up with more, but like the quotes I've shown, Christians believe that the CHIEF purpose is to glorify God.

Your move.

 

[Dark Virtue]

He had no need of their/our worship either. He doesn't need us at all. I don't know why he created us as we have caused Him nothing but pain, but He did.
I really don't need an answer, I know He did create us and that's good enough for me.

I don't really know where I got the "God worships Himself" idea, but it seems right to me. I'll try to find some proof.

Proof is always good

If you will notice, the questions I ask have a common thread. To understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

 

[Avesther]

I'll give this much to you DV, that what you quoted is definatly what many think. But, should any of them actually read thier bibles to determine what God has to say about it, they'll find out that they are only partially right. Alas, they are not freethinkers like you. They wouldn't possible research for evidence that would be contrary to their beliefs, they certainly wouldn't google for quotes that would invalidate thier position, like you would, right?

Aside from that, I've decided to look at what the handbook of Christianity had to say about the whole thing:

Genesis 1:26-28

(26)Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. (27)So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. (28)God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creather that moves on the ground.

I must be a complete moron because I don't see God creating man here to grovel and tremble in fear of God here. Rather, I see a complete reverse of what all the quotes you gave. That God created man so that he could glorify, honor and love us. God created man and gave man dominion over his creation. Far from a subservant position you can get.

Our primary purpose on earth is to be loved and glorified by God! God said, "Let's make man in our own image." That is awesome! Not a subject or servant. "Let's make them in our likeness and give them dominion over everything we have created!"

Psalm 8:4-8

4What is man that you are mindful of him, 5you made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with GLORY and HONOR. 6You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: 7all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, 8the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas

He made us to live in the Eden of his Presence.

The word glorify is not some religious expression projecting images of divinity, halos, or sunbursts. To glorify is to hold in high opinion or estimate. Glory is honor resulting from a good opinion. In creating us in his image, God expressed his high estimate of us. He glorified us.

Romans 8:28-30

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called accoring to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstbord among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Jesus speaks of sharing Glory in his Prayer in John 17:22

22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.

Paul adds:

2Cor 3:18a

18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed inot his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord.

Our ultimate glorification is further assured:

1John 3:1f

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God and so we are ... Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Col3:4

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in Glory.

1Cor2:7

7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

God created us so he would have us to love and glorify by sharing his likeness and companionship. Rather than creating us to be trembling slaves of whom praise is demanded, he gave to us his nature and accepts us as his sons and daughters. He invites us to come boldly to his throne. He invites us to reign with him.

When we realize this, we will love him, holding him in the highest opinion and estimation. Yes, we will praise and glorify him in word, life, and song. It will be a happy response to his glorification of us. That, however, will not be a effort to fulfill a supposed purpose on earth to meet his demands for praise.

The two motivations are radically different.

"You were bought with a price." That is the Gospel, the Good News of our glorification. "So glorify God in your body." (1 Cor. 6:20). That is our willing response of giving praise to God.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

GP, I'm going to partially disagree with you based on Ecclesiastes 12:13--

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

and based on Hebrews 9:14--

How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Clearly these verses support the idea that our chief purpose is to glorify and serve God, not the other way around. However, that doesn't explain away your verses and how they seem to point to the fact that we were put here to be glorified by God.

So, I'm forced to conclude that the answer is BOTH. Our chief purpose here is to glorify, and to be glorified by, the Living God. This seems to fit in well with Jesus' "first shall be last, last shall be first" example of the men sitting at the dinner table, where those who humble themselves by sitting far from the head (glorifying God) will be brought closer to it (being glorified by God). First you humble yourself, then God lifts you up. That should be in the Bible. Wait, it is! (James 4:10)

 

[Snake_Six]

Quote:
A True Christian is one of God's elect to whom He has given a new nature.

So how are Roman Catholics not True Christians? The seem to fit your definition

The Roman Catholic Church in of itself is not Christian. I didn't say that a Catholic couldn't be a True Christian, but if they are, then God will lead them to a church with Biblical doctrine.

 

[Avesther]

So, I'm forced to conclude that the answer is BOTH. Our chief purpose here is to glorify, and to be glorified by, the Living God.

I did not set out to discount that we are to glorify and serve God. I set out to show it was not the only purpose.

Even using Eccl 12:13, you have to ask, what are Gods commandments? Or at least, what are the greatest commandments. First one was to server God the second was to serve man. Again, a duality in purpose arises.