Numbers 31:1 1-18

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Why is it that several posters have admitted that men are not like Christ, though they may try to be. Ergo, as a result, woman are still mistreated through this system.
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Unforutnatley, I'm not quite sure what you are referring to, but I'll take a guess.  As Christians, we strive to become more and more Christ-like.  Our desire is to do the right thing, but often times, we fall short.  Sometimes our fleshly desires (selfishness, pride, etc.) take over.  If we are stepping outside of God's boundaries, then yes...actually we both (men and women) will get hurt.

I define a 2nd class citizen a bit differently.  Your Monarch scenario is interesting, but I'm not sure it's totally hitting the mark.  The problem is, the Monarch you are talking about is most likely making decisions out of complete selfishness and what is best for himself/herself.  It's not really based on what the 'subjects' want.

On the other hand, take a king/queen who listens to their subjects.  They take their feelings into account when making descisions.  Sure, sometimes they may go against what their 'subjects' want, but the 'subjects' are ok with that because they have grown to respect their leader and know they make wise decisions.  There is a big difference between the two monarchs and a big difference between the relation between citizens and leader.

Regarding your husband/wife/child thing...If a husband and wife are not going to agree on disciplining, they should not have children.  It will wreak havoc on the child and on the marriage.  Like I said earlier, husband and wife should be in agreement as much as possible.

Let's take your 2nd situation.  Mom says go to your room and dad says sit on the couch.  My take is, the dad should not have said anything.  You just don't lay down your authority just to lay it down.  It becomes very confusing to the child.  They don't know if what they did was wrong or if they can just get away with stuff.  If the husband disagrees with what his wife says, he should take her aside (not in front of the kids) and discuss it.  If it happened the opposite way, then the wife should take her husband aside and openly discuss the situation.  In either case, they talk it over and possibly come to a closer conclusion.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]When one has authority over another, that person is at a higher level of 'citizenship' and as such those under that person are second-class citizens in relationship to him.
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I disagree.  But this can be one of those cases where our upbringing has dictated our view on authority.  I won't deny what you think on this, but here is my take.  Someone who has authority over me is no greater or less of a citizen.  We are equal.  It's just one of us has more responsibilities.  Do you feel a 2nd-class citizen to a policeman?  I don't.  They have the same life issues we all deal with.  They pay taxes.  Pay rent/mortgage.  Perhaps the President has higher citizenship, I don't know...but I respect that choice because of their position and even that doesn't make me feel like a 2nd class citizen.

My current manager is fantastic and the reason is, I feel he comes down to our level.  He doesn't laud his manager title, but he makes us all feel as equals, except that he is responsible for a lot more.  Likewise, with my VP.
 
I concur with SSquared. More responsibility does not make someone a higher level citizen. I have had numerous jobs over the years, and I have never been a second class citizen. I've been a manager, a team leader and just a general employee, but never a second class citizen. The one time I had an employer who thought that way, I informed him quite succinctly otherwise, and walked out.

My wife, is in submission to me. I have the final say in decisions. Yet does she not have a say? Does she not make some of the decisions? Does she not have the ability to tell me off over some of the decisions I've made? She has all these things. She also has the duty to inform me if she thinks I'm not living up to my responsibilities to God and to her. My wedding vows were to love, to honor and to cherish. Not to cow, beat and dominate.

Just because she is in submission to the authority that God has deemed to be the correct one in a marriage, does not mean she's any less of a human.
 
Your failing to see the point.

When one has authority over others (LIVES, NOT JOBS), they have more rights than others. You are looking at this in the narrow sense of 'responsibility', that is rather unbased.

The woman can't quit if you are failing at upholding your responsibilities.

When you have a 'boss' he is not dictating your life, merely your work in his establishment. Not only this, but you are not expected by a divine force to act on your boss's whim, you can argue and even make demands.

Further, we have a thing known as labor laws, this happened BECAUSE the employers were not being fair, such a thing doesn't develop in a husband/wife relationship... at least not by the guidance of the Bible.
 
Are you equal to Christ? He came down to our level, was peaceful (most of the time) and showed respect for men, yet I doubt you would say you are equal to him.

As for your boss scenario, good point, yet what you fail to see is that although he is 'nice', one must consider that should he decide to be mean, he could easily be just that. Although he is a good person who treats you well, in his buisiness he makes the final decision, as such you have no ultimate say in what is to undertake. This is the key in understanding.

The Christian man is bound to become selfish at many times (as you would agree...) yet in doing so he would be acting in a manner as to benefit himself before that of others. If his wife can not have a real say in this, his selfishness will go unchallenged. She would be second class to him.
 
It is the Wrathe of The Father:His PRIVILEGE!
FOR ALL THINGS WERE FASHION BY HIM THRU CHRIST JESUS OF NAZARETH.
NOW THEN if you care to see the Charity of The Lord GOd Jesus Christ of Nazareth then, go and read Brother(St.) Luke 23:34
For in His Forgiveness there is Charity:Devine Love.
For so too our Lord could have then destroyed ALL MAN, but did not. amen
My FAther is greater than i said Jesus.
Only My Father is good(means opposed to evil.) said Jesus.
Tell me little one, who art thou to question the WRATHE  OF THE FATHER, OR THE CHARITY OF JESUS HIS SON, THE LAMB OF GOd.
DID YOU SEEK TO EXAULT THYSELF ABOVE GOd AND HEAVEN, ONLY TO BE CAST DOWN?
i am nothing0 and know NOT TO DISPUTE THE LORD GOd JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH. AMEN
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD JESUS1. AMEN
i would like you to try harder.
 
7:42 pm
medjai 44/276
adelpit 56/253
Competition is wonderful!
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD JESUS1. AMEN
 
Medjai just don't argue with him. I think this is either a sad case for a Christian gone Carrie White's Mom, or just plain comic relief.

I do have a question though for you Adel: CAN Christians commit sin?
 
woman can challenge their husbands...let's say for example that Jay (my hubby) decides he wants to give more money to the church. That's great I say, How much are we talking? He says 50% of my paycheck (only source of income). Obviously we can't afford such a transaction (unless there is some indicator that God will allieviate us of mortgage payments!) and it's going over and beyond the Biblical requirement (10%). I would dispute it.

I also have the right to agree or not do my husbands will if he wants to sin. I don't have to sit down and watch pornos with him just because he wants me to. (this is something either of us never plan on doing) God's Biblical laws overrides his decision.

He does have influence on our spiritual life, he will be there for me if I stumble. He has ultimate say in decidng to switch churches if Harvest is no longer cutting it.

A husband is to love his wife and Christ loves his church. Ultimately Christ died for the church, if we are walking downtown together and held at gun point, he'd take a stand.

Regarding sexuality it's Biblical that neither should withhold from eachother. That works both ways. I don't want to get into venus/mars disscussions but that is commanding both sides to do their part.
 
*********start Off Topic digresssion ***********

10% is not a Biblical requirement.

The actual thing was 10% of the first fruits, and a percentage of the second fruits etc...etc... the full OT tithe, would be closer to 15-20% of your annual salary....

*********end Off Topic digresssion ***********
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]When one has authority over others (LIVES, NOT JOBS), they have more rights than others.
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OK, I guess I can sort of agree with that. But it doesn't make me feel like a 2nd class citizen. For example, parents shouldn't make their children feel 2nd class.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Although he is a good person who treats you well, in his buisiness he makes the final decision, as such you have no ultimate say in what is to undertake. This is the key in understanding.
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No. This is the key to our point of view. Obviously your point of view says, "Medjai has no say in what happens." My point of view says, "My boss has listened to what SSquared (and others) have said, and I trust his decision." My boss makes decisions for us all the time and in no way do I feel left out.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Not only this, but you are not expected by a divine force to act on your boss's whim, you can argue and even make demands.
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But if you don't think you input makes any difference, what good is arguing and making demands?

Perhaps you missed what Kidan and I wrote (and CCGR followed-up on). We have said the wife CAN discuss issues with their husband. If they think their husband did something wrong. Go ahead and tell him. There is nothing wrong with that.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If his wife can not have a real say in this, his selfishness will go unchallenged. She would be second class to him.
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His wife CAN have a say.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Are you equal to Christ? He came down to our level, was peaceful (most of the time) and showed respect for men, yet I doubt you would say you are equal to him.
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Well, I don't feel like a 2nd class citizen. He came and served. He washed people's feet. If that didn't make them feel special, I don't know what would. As a human, he had no special rights above anyone else. He was tempted just like you and me. He lived in a rough environment. He was beat and bruised.
 
No, when I have an issue with my boss, and he refuses to consider it fairly, I can leave and find a new job.

This is a key difference.

Again I must stress that control over one's job is not a good comparison to control over one's life.

I do think you have some influence on your husband's/boss's decisions but the thing to understand is that technically you have no control.

I did read how women can argue and complain, I just don't know where the Biblical standard for that is, please do point it out.

Also, just because you can argue and complain does not mean you have any control. If I am put in prison I can moan and complain all I want, it won't change the fact that I am in a prison.
 
Just because you don't 'feel' like a second class citizen doesn't mean you aren't one. I honestly wish it did though.

Would you consider a Moslim woman in the middle east to be as a second class citizen?
 
there is a drastic difference in how Christian and Muslim women are treated..in fact I heard some religions cirumcise women so they get no benefit from sex. What's up with that? Thank God I was born in the US.
 
so if we don't feel like a second class citizen and are treated equal why should I care? I have no complaints I am happy. What else matters?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Sep. 21 2003,10:28)]there is a drastic difference in how Christian and Muslim women are treated..in fact I heard some religions cirumcise women so they get no benefit from sex.  What's up with that?  Thank God I was born in the US.
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Actually, Female Genital Mutilation is more a cultural practice found in North Africa rather than a religious one.  It crosses religious lines...Muslims do it, Christians do it, Animists do it.

Just sharing.
 
You should care because it is the principle of the matter, don't you have principles?
 
I'm sorry, but that's the funniest post i've ever read.

"it iss the principle of the matter, don't you have principles"

I think you're confusing the terminology here.


That sentence translates into "it is the ideals behind the concept, don't you have morals?"

If that's not what you intended I'm sorry, but that's just how I read it.

Anyways. You said, that if you felt treated unfairly and unhappy at work you could leave, BUT you dont' feel that way, even though your boss still makes all the decisions himself.
So according to your viewpoint, you should leave anyways, since he's imposing his will on you.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You said, that if you felt treated unfairly and unhappy at work you could leave, BUT you dont' feel that way, even though your boss still makes all the decisions himself.
So according to your viewpoint, you should leave anyways, since he's imposing his will on you.
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This is exactly what I have also been trying to point out. When I bring something up, Medjai changes his tune. Work is now both a good example and not a good example. I don't get it.

Medjai, the thing that saddens me is if you are constantly walking around feeling like your opinion doesn't matter. What I have been trying to point out are situations and how YOU and I interpret them. In other words, given the same exact situation, I feel my opinion counts, you feel yours does not. At least that is the way you are describing it.

People make decisions for us all the time. A bunch of friends want to go out to eat. 4 want to go to McD's, 2 want to go to Burger King. They end up going to McD's. Do the BK'ers feel their opinion didn't count? What if 5 want McD's and only 1 wants BK because he/she is trying to avoid someone who works at McD's. They go to BK. Did opinions not count? Were both sides not considered?
 
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