One size fits all! NOT!

[[toj.cc]phantom]

I just want to be biblically accurate. We know that the reference to flames is figurative because if you try to take it literally, it makes no sense. For example, hell is described as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames, too. How can that be? Flames wuold light things up. In addition, we're told Christ is going to return surronded by flames and that he's going to have a big sword coming out of his mouth. But nobody thinks Christ won't be able to say anything because he'll be chocking on a sword. The figure of the sword stands for the word of God in judgement. The flames stand for Christ coming in judgement. In Hebrews 12:29, God is called the consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying he's a god of judgement.

REV 16: 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
REV 16: 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This kind of darkness cannot be penetrated by light so maybe this is the same darkness as in Hell which would mean you are wrong and that fire could exists.

What about hell being a place where worms constantly eat people's flesh?

In Jesus' day thousands of animals were sacrificed every week in the Temple, and there was a sewage system for the blood and fat to flow outside, whre it gathered in a pool. There were worms constantly ingesting that. It was a very ugly place. When Jesus was teaching, he used this metaphor as a way of saying hell is worse than that disgusting place outside the city.

Firstly the blood went into the pool no the fat. Secondly woms do not "drink" blood any nourishment they need to satisfy their thirst is drawn out of the dirt, plants, or flesh that they eat. As for the fat and he inards of the animal those were burned in the temple and the ashes taken outside to a garbage heap.

There's also the phrase 'ghnashing of teeth' to describe those in hell. Doesn't that refer to people reacting to hte pain of torture?

More precisely, this is meant to describe a state of anger or realization of great loss. It's an expression of rage at realizing that one has made a huge mistake. If you've ever been around people who are self-absorbed, self-centered, and highly narcissistic, they get angry when they don't get their way. I believe the gnashing of teeth is an expression of the type of personality of people who will belong in hell.

No flames, no worms, no gnashing of teeth from torture---maybe hell isn't as bad as we thought... blahblahblah...

Main Entry: gnash
Pronunciation: 'nash
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: alteration of Middle English gnasten
: to strike or grind (as the teeth) together
- gnash noun

Well I'd like to see people talk when they are gnashing their teeth. Screaming, moaning, blashpemeing all yes. And what do you mean didn't get their way they heard what would happen if they didn't come to Chirst and they descided to ignore it they got their just dessert.

Let me put it this way, Have you ever been around somebody who was unbelievebly good looking, extremely attracive, and a lot smarter than you are? When you're in a social situation people want to listen ot him, not you Suppose you don't care for that person, but yo're kept in a room with him 24 hours a day for 30 years. That would be an unbelieveably difficult experience. Now multiply those qualities ten thousand times, and that's a little bit of what God is like.......... And if people do not fall passionately in love with him, then to force them to have to be around him forever---doing the kinds of things that people who loveh im would want to do---would be utterly uncomfortable

First off why would someone become a Christian if they didn't love God in the first place. Secondly when we go to Heaven there will be no more anger, hate, lust, or anything like that at all. So sayingpeople will be jealous because others are talking to God and not them is wrong since we will all be worshiping God and we will all have perfect beautiful bodies not even close to the onse we have right now.

SA, that source is 100% W R O N G! In addition, I am very concerned about you saying that hell is not fair concerning degrees of sin. Sin is sin.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deuteronomy 32:4

I am not sure where you got those ideas SA, nor the source, but it is garbage. Please, put it where it belongs!

Please remember what I said. The enemy has methods of tripping us up. He knows our weaknesses. The top 2 ways of his deceit is getting us to doubt Gods Word in any way, shape, or form! And the second really falls into the first category, that being getting us to believe there is no hell, or at least to not believe in the severity of hell.

Favorite verse? Stolen? lol It's nice to share! It's akin to the loaves and fishes SA, it will feed everyone from Alpha and Omega!

I completely agree Marcy those things he said about hell are trash.

 

[Marcylene]

Did you ever sing this song in Sunday School?

Oh, be careful little eyes, what you see.
Oh, be careful little eyes, what you see.
There's a Father up above, looking down in tender love,
So be careful little eyes, what you see.

Be careful little ears what you hear
Be careful little mouth what you say...
Be careful little hands, what you touch...
Be careful little feet, where you go...

(I was thinking there was a stanza between the second and third and I Googled it to be certain. I found a little treasure of a site!! http://www.ebibleteacher.com/children/songs.htm)

The Spirit of that song was taken from the following verse:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Philippians 4:8

Gen had a thread not long ago about language. In essence, she was speaking on "christian" cussing. The words we use in place of curse words. In my Mother's day, saying things we say today would render a beating for her behind! Today, we hear worse on TV! Our standards for today have changed. However, the Bible says:

Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set. Proverbs 22:28

Instead of us changing our standards, therefore moving the landmark and doing things labeled, "not so bad," we need to stand on God's Word that NEVER changes. The landmark of God's Word should never be moved no matter what the world is doing. Remember, God is the Word!

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8

God and His Word will never change!

Preacher does a take on an old quote: Be careful what you stand for, or you will fall for anything. SA, it is so important to know the Word. Truly the things that you have brought to the table can each be refuted. It does concern me, that you would believe these things.

No flames, no worms, no gnashing of teeth from torture---maybe hell isn't as bad as we thought... blahblahblah...

I would like to know what book you got this quote from. If this is simply something that you added, that is even worse. IF you could deduce this from this book, BEWARE! You have to know your Bible, read it!!!! At least look in the Word when you see that this book, me, your preacher, anyone or anything telling you what is in God's Word...be certain they can stand up to the Light of God's Word.

I just want to be biblically accurate.

Yea, right, whatever!

We know that the reference to flames is figurative because if you try to take it literally, it makes no sense.

Lovely statement! Noah's Ark, Burning Bush, Jonah and the Whale...where do we stop not taking the Bible literally?

For example, hell is described as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames, too. How can that be? Flames wuold light things up.

I gave you a link above that describes this as some sort of Spiritual fire. I have heard it is so hot it shows forth no light, or something to do with a sulfuric burn...we don't know! The Bible mentions hell 54 times, it bears some significance and it is NOT, I repeat, NOT some fairy tale as the enemy would love you to believe.

In addition, we're told Christ is going to return surrounded by flames and that he's going to have a big sword coming out of his mouth. But nobody thinks Christ won't be able to say anything because he'll be choking on a sword.

At this point in time, I do not think it will be necessary for Him to say a Word! Nevertheless, HE is God. I won't lose any sleep over worrying about Him choking, or being able to talk with a Sword! Could it be figurative? Perhaps. The Bible is referred to as the two-edged Sword. At this point, I would not give you 2 mites for anything this guy says!

What about hell being a place where worms constantly eat people's flesh?

I have been taught that this worm refers to our minds. Our finite minds will still be working strong! However, when I look in the Lexicon, a worm, is a worm, is a worm. Remember, we are speaking about a fire that is pitch black, that does not consume, and that is never quenched. That is not like anything we have ever seen. It would seem in the mystery of it all, the worm is alive and well.

No flames, no worms, no gnashing of teeth from torture---maybe hell isn't as bad as we thought... blahblahblah...

This is the most frightening statement I have ever heard! shhhhhhh! listen! shhhhhh! BAM! You heard it? The enemy's trap! I have heard that people don't want to go to Heaven because their friends will not be there, they can't party,... ad nauseam! Now, we have someone telling them, "hell ain't so bad after all!"

Even if we were to believe this guy, it still sounds like torture! See the state of the world now while controlled by the enemy? You know, as a Christian, the struggles, sorrows, pain...that is with Christ and His Romans8:28 peace and Love. Imagine not having Christ! Hell would be bad even if we could believe this Pied Piping Mickey Mouse! Just another way of the enemy wanting to poison us to believe we do not need Christ and that God's Word isn't true!

Oh be careful little mind what you read
Oh be careful little mind what you read
You're my brother in the LORD
I want you to keep your fire and weld His Sword
Oh be careful little mind what you read

Please do not believe everything that you read. Weigh it in the balance of God's Word.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Nonono, that was a bad analogy. >_< Forget it. XPXPXPPXPXP. I'm out.

 

[Didasko]

We must be very careful trying to fit God into our human logic and experiences. God can do anything in any way He likes. Darkness and flames...no problem. Living in eternal torment with worms eating their flesh...no problem. Nashing of teeth from living in eternal torment...very likely.

Let me put it this way, Have you ever been around somebody who was unbelievebly good looking, extremely attracive, and a lot smarter than you are? When you're in a social situation people want to listen ot him, not you Suppose you don't care for that person, but yo're kept in a room with him 24 hours a day for 30 years. That would be an unbelieveably difficult experience. Now multiply those qualities ten thousand times, and that's a little bit of what God is like.......... And if people do not fall passionately in love with him, then to force them to have to be around him forever---doing the kinds of things that people who loveh im would want to do---would be utterly uncomfortable

Are you saying that the unrepentant will be in heaven and that heaven will be like hell to them...? If we are not careful and we make the whole bible out to be figurative, we can ascribe any meaning we want to. The word of God is unchanging and most of it is not figurative. Be very careful in reading man's interpretation of God's word. Satan works through many authors to confuse Christians and non-christians alike.

maybe hell isn't as bad as we thought... blahblahblah...

ouch...read the bible SA. This stuff is not biblical in any way shape or form.

These are not quotes from Lee Strobel are they SA? Are these your own writings put in quotes for emphasis?

 

[Marcylene]

Nonono, that was a bad analogy. >_< Forget it. XPXPXPPXPXP. I'm out.

We love you, SA. I don't think we would take the time to try and listen to the Holy Spirit and post if we did not. I was assuming that the quotes were mainly from a book, or some ideas you had gotten from a book. I would never mean to offend you, I do hope you know that! I am only human and partial sometimes to my brothers and sisters in Christ. IF those quotes are from a book, or its ideas...SHAME ON THEM! If those are your quotes...you are learning and growing, please do not think I was trying to be ugly to you, personally. Those ideas are frighteningly far from what God's Word teaches. But hey, I am glad you brought them up! I had to dig into the Word myself! It helped me to grow!

 

[SLNT_FIR]

wowz0rs super post. I mean this is from a witnessing POV. And it's a recorded conversation between Lee Strobel and this Bible PhD guy... *he's christian*. just let you know. it's not a statemnt.

 

[Marcylene]

Please be cautious of your sources. You have been singing the praises of Lee Strobel, SA...his ideas are not good in the least. I honestly don't want to read anything that he says, SA, he is so far off on this one. He doesn't seem to take God at His Word. I have had so many books to catch up on that I got for Christmas gifts, some so rich I can only digest a wee bit at a time... I never had time to check out Stobel...now, I won't! "Hell not so bad afterall!" I cannot even imagine what would possess a person to say such a thing....ohh, wait...yea, possess...we KNOW who is behind those kind of statements!

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

I don't think that that is from Lee Stroble Marcy.

 

[Marcylene]

Thank you, Phantom. But I think SA is saying it is a recording of Lee Strobel and a Bible PHD. I am curious, SA, (if I am correct), was it the PHD guy that said, "Maybe hell isn't as bad as we thought?" How did Mr. Strobel respond to that statement?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

no, that was the other way round.

 

[Thaddius]

I've read some of Strobels work and I never got that out of what he said. I would want to know the context of the discussion. (like was Strobel playing Devils Advocate to the PhD's discussion)

Cory

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

I think your right Thad I've read someof his things and he does that sometimes when he is tlkaing to someone.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

This interview was BEFORE he was christian.

REad his books.

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I just read a brief synopsis of the interview, which is actually in Strobel's book "A Case for Faith". Strobel even interjects in the interview that this isn't what is normally taught, and that it gives the picture of a hell without teeth.

Strobel is highly touted by Dobson, Sproel, and others... I wouldn't dismiss everything he writes, Marcy, just because he printed a transcript of an interview he had with a Dr. J. P. Moreland, who is a respected author and professor at Talbot. Here's his bio: http://www.talbot.edu/faculty/moreland.cfm

By the way, another person who ascribes to the same theory as Strobel and Moreland is... BILLY GRAHAM! Duhn-duhn DUHN!!!!! I disagree with that theory, but farbeit for me to claim definitively something that two highly respected pillars of faith like Strobel and Graham believe is blasphemous.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Well, just wanted to let out his ideas...

 

[Marcylene]

Billy Graham? eeeeee! I admire Billy Graham for the multitudes that he reaches and his life of service. I found his book written back in 1950 today on a table of books that someone was giving away, Peace With God. I have heard preachers that I love dearly say they did not like him... now I understand why! I also admire Dr. Dobson but I have not agreed with him 100% of the time on every issue. You are correct, WildBill, I should not be too quick to dismiss every word. It is just very comforting to me that there are men and women of God, while yes, I know, we are fallible, some I really would trust with my very life. There teachings are right on target...dead center...bulls eye! It is a joy to learn from someone that seems to have the Word figured out... right down to we do not know everything! It is just, when you start changing the Bible, the way of salvation, or hell itself...that bothers me. You never know how words carry an impact. I think that the message that hell is not so bad after all, is a very dangerous, deadly, deceitful message!

I love the way God works. I find it very interesting that you would mention differing opinions of respected men. Also on the table was a book called Such Is My Confidence by Carolyn Rhea. Written in 1961 the Foreword is as follows:

My purpose in sharing these simple convictions is that of urging everyone to define more clearly his own beliefs.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. II Corinthians 13:5

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. II Corinthians 11:3

Great timing, hugh? Even better timing is how the last page relates to my life at the moment:

Our sufficiency is of God. II Corinthians 3:5 Such is my confidence.


He is so very good. He can even speak to me from a giveaway table of old books! And you know, I love coming here, for I get daily Bread, here, too!

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Marcy, I don't think that they are saying that Hell will not be awful... how would you feel if you were totally separated from God?

I'd be lonely, scared, vulnerable, and I'm actually shuddering thinking about it (and I'm a 6'3" former college football player). I see their viewpoint, and respectfully disagree in favor of a more literal interpretation of those passages.

However, I find it hard to believe that Jesus will come back to earth with an actual sword protruding from his mouth, but that the sword refers to the Word of God. Not that He couldn't, but the figurative interpretation makes more sense to me than the literal in that case, just as the figurative interpretation of hell makes more sense to Moreland, Strobel, and Billy. Of course, I'm pretty certain that neither we nor they will have any firsthand experience, and that's one experiment I don't feel like testing.

 

[Shyfroggy]

I haven't been a member long, but this discussion/description caught my attention. All I am going to do is recommend a movie. The one statement (though there are many) that really fires me up is , "maybe hell isn't so bad after all" that statement is rather a scarry one...no matter how its said, weather one is playing devils advocate or what have you. Anyways...the following movie is great, and many of you may have already seen it...."What Dreams May Come" It has Robin Williams, Cuba Gooding Jr., and Annabella Schiorra....it was a 1998 Academy Award Winner....while it is hard to find, it is well worth teh search....

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Well, think about it. We will know EVERYTHING we ask for in heaven... That's a bit weird...

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Just found this after some web searching, and all I have to say is, WOW. Really makes you think.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T336