Passion of Christ
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Whitestone
New Member
No, God used a donkey once to convey His will.
Jango
New Member
No, one was a Muslim, but after working on the film he converted to Christianity.
On the point of anti-Semitism:
The movie clearly does not condemn all Jews. If nothing else, it seems that all (OK, almost all) the women in the movie (all Jewish) were not supportive of Jesus' condemnation (yes, yes, there were a few women yelling and mocking as part of the crowd, but I think you get my point). And Simon of Cyrene - a man who "didn't want to get involved" but whose life changed because he did. Yes, Jews killed Jesus - but the movie is not anti-Semitic because it clearly does not condemn all Jews. You could as easily (in fact, more easily) say that the movie is anti-male because the men killed him, but the women only tried to help him. When my wife and I walked out of the theatre, one of the first things she said was "Wow, I gotta tell you, I'm glad I'm not a man right now." And she's right. Everyone I've talked to agrees that the affect on men and women is vastly different. My wife felt spiritually renewed. I felt convicted and now find myself occasionally lost in the horror again.
On the point of God's control:
Before getting too upset about pop's Isaiah quote and jumping blindly to the "God controls everything" assumption, step back and ignore pop's apparent abrupt manner and think on his point. While I would think a less obscure quote would be appropriate, there is a difference between God's omnipotence - His ability to do anything, and God controlling everything. There is a difference between God working out His Plan, and Him controlling. While I would argue that God does control life and death, I would also argue that God does not control everything, else there is no free will. In fact, if God did control everything, then He would be the originator of the world's evil. I believe Satan to be the originator of that evil and I believe that God allows evil to persist in the world for reasons that make sense only in the light of a Plan I cannot see - but that does not mean that God controls, or even condones that evil any more than he controls or condones our sin. Taken in that light, the quote from Isaiah appears consistent, and I'm not sure it really was out of context to begin with. I just don't think everyone thought it through very carefully.
On the point of actors and actresses from questionable backgrounds as characters in the movie:
2 words: Mad Max. 'Nuff said.
The movie clearly does not condemn all Jews. If nothing else, it seems that all (OK, almost all) the women in the movie (all Jewish) were not supportive of Jesus' condemnation (yes, yes, there were a few women yelling and mocking as part of the crowd, but I think you get my point). And Simon of Cyrene - a man who "didn't want to get involved" but whose life changed because he did. Yes, Jews killed Jesus - but the movie is not anti-Semitic because it clearly does not condemn all Jews. You could as easily (in fact, more easily) say that the movie is anti-male because the men killed him, but the women only tried to help him. When my wife and I walked out of the theatre, one of the first things she said was "Wow, I gotta tell you, I'm glad I'm not a man right now." And she's right. Everyone I've talked to agrees that the affect on men and women is vastly different. My wife felt spiritually renewed. I felt convicted and now find myself occasionally lost in the horror again.
On the point of God's control:
Before getting too upset about pop's Isaiah quote and jumping blindly to the "God controls everything" assumption, step back and ignore pop's apparent abrupt manner and think on his point. While I would think a less obscure quote would be appropriate, there is a difference between God's omnipotence - His ability to do anything, and God controlling everything. There is a difference between God working out His Plan, and Him controlling. While I would argue that God does control life and death, I would also argue that God does not control everything, else there is no free will. In fact, if God did control everything, then He would be the originator of the world's evil. I believe Satan to be the originator of that evil and I believe that God allows evil to persist in the world for reasons that make sense only in the light of a Plan I cannot see - but that does not mean that God controls, or even condones that evil any more than he controls or condones our sin. Taken in that light, the quote from Isaiah appears consistent, and I'm not sure it really was out of context to begin with. I just don't think everyone thought it through very carefully.
On the point of actors and actresses from questionable backgrounds as characters in the movie:
2 words: Mad Max. 'Nuff said.
Jango
New Member
Remember, this is only a movie. Both Men and Women are equally guilty for our sins. Plus, I know Satan tricked the Jews into condemning Him.[b said:
True, but there are times when God intervenes. IF Pilate said "No", Jesus' coming would have been pointless. I believe that God wouldn't have allowed Pilate to say "No".[b said:
TastyWheat
New Member
It's interesting that you say that...[b said:
One of my profs noted yesterday that we have a text describing actions of Pilate three years after Jesus' death. Apparantly a man claiming to be the real messiah had gathered a following of people, some 3000 strong, on a mountain top close to Jerusalem. Pilate went out there with a garrison of soldiers and slaughtered every single one of them.
Apparently, thought, he did allow the followers of Jesus to preach openly; looking at the above incident, if he felt that Jesus and his followers were inciting some sort of political rebellion, he very easily could (and would) have stamped them out in no time at all. It wasn't until the reign of Nero, some 35 years later, that Christianity was outlawed.
I find the political happenings surrounding Jesus and the early Christians fascinating now that I'm fiding out more of the history. It seems more and more that Christianity, in its earliest years, had very little to do with politics - for instance, in the war of the Jewish Zealots against the Romans in 66, the Christians fled rather than fought! In the Babylonian Talmud, even, it says that Jesus was executed for sorcery, not claiming political authority.
All very interesting stuff.
Interesting stuff, and I have to say that I support Pilate's actions 100%. The Roman garrisons in such places were always underfunded and undermanned - whilst he could decisively deal with 3000, dealing with 30,000 or 300,000 would have been a major incident.
That's what proconsuls and governers were for - to make the decision when Religion had become politics and to see that Imperial Law wasn't broken.
That's what proconsuls and governers were for - to make the decision when Religion had become politics and to see that Imperial Law wasn't broken.
We're sneaking dangerously close to a predestination discussion here[b said:
If not Pilate, then not Pharaoh in Exodus, either. For that matter, not Adam or Eve. When you make God responsible for the sin of man, you take away the responsibility of sin from man and make the whole point of Jesus moot.Is The Passion of the Christ anti-semitic?
No. In fact, I believe that Mel Gibson brought both sides of the Jewish people into the movie. Yes, you had Jews who called for Jesus' crucifixion. But you also had those who had compassion for Him, crying in the streets...helping Him with the cross...and wiping away the blood from His face. Many people were involved in Jesus' death, including many Jews, but saying that because a group of Jews were part of causing Jesus' death that all Jews should be blamed is like saying all of one race, religion, nationality, etc. should be blamed for the ones who do something bad. For example, should all white people be blamed because a group of white people were the cause of someone's death? Should all Italians (or Italian-Americans) be blamed for an Italian mob's actions? It's like blaming all Muslims for 9/11 instead of the group who caused it.
But who did kill Jesus? Let's count them...
1. Judas - Betrayed Jesus and led his captors to Him.
2. High Priests - For claiming blasphemy, taking Jesus into custody, bringing Him to Pilate, and getting the crowd to follow them.
3. The Jewish crowd (not all Jews, but those calling for crucifixion) - For calling for the crucifixion
4. Pilate - He didn't believe Jesus deserved to die, but he let Him die anyway, for selfish gain, because he was afraid of a riot.
5. Roman soldiers - They followed the orders of Pilate and tortured (going even further than their orders -- crown of thorns, beating Jesus with a stick, mocking Jesus) Jesus. (As for the movie, I thought the Roman soldiers were depicted cruel and evil during the whipping of Jesus).
6. Satan - He was the one who possessed Judas, and thus leading him to betray Jesus in the first place.
7. God, the Father - He allowed Jesus to die for the overall plan...see scripture below...
8. Jesus - He gave His own life for us. The garden of Gethsemane had many exits. Jesus only had to run away from his captors, for He knew what was coming. Instead He met them head on. He could have also called down the legions of angels and escaped His death and showed everyone that He was God. In The Passion you could even see Jesus pulling himself up after the soldiers stopped whipping him, thus making them whip him more. He also pulled himself up to the cross, surprising even the soldiers around him.
You could also lay blame on those who followed him (i.e. disciples, those who cried in the streets for him), for they did nothing to step in as witnesses. Even Peter went as far as denying him.
Now, as for Monica Belluci...
I know of the movie that was mentioned. I have not seen it, but read about it last year in an article about her busy year. (For those who don't know, she was in Tears of the Sun with Bruce Willis, and the Matrix sequels) The article mentioned the rape scene, and (from what I remember...I might have to pull the article out again) the scene was fake. The man in the scene (who was her real-life husband) didn't even have sex with her. It was all done using different effects and angles. She didn't do the scene to glorify rape, but to tell the story of this woman and what she went through, through an artistic form. In fact, several dresses were made for the scene...she loved the dress and asked for her own, but she can't wear it because of the emotions she felt by having to shoot the scene several times. As for the pornographic sites...there are many sites out there that claim to have pornographic pictures of celebrities...but most are fake. I can't say for certain whether these are or not, but in the end...does it really matter? She was a wonderful actress and portrayed her character with great emotion and passion. And, should we not allow non-believers in on such a thing? What a witness it is to work with them. In fact, I even remember hearing about non-believers working on the "Left Behind" movies, which were done by a Christian studio, and how they came to know Jesus through working on those films.
No. In fact, I believe that Mel Gibson brought both sides of the Jewish people into the movie. Yes, you had Jews who called for Jesus' crucifixion. But you also had those who had compassion for Him, crying in the streets...helping Him with the cross...and wiping away the blood from His face. Many people were involved in Jesus' death, including many Jews, but saying that because a group of Jews were part of causing Jesus' death that all Jews should be blamed is like saying all of one race, religion, nationality, etc. should be blamed for the ones who do something bad. For example, should all white people be blamed because a group of white people were the cause of someone's death? Should all Italians (or Italian-Americans) be blamed for an Italian mob's actions? It's like blaming all Muslims for 9/11 instead of the group who caused it.
But who did kill Jesus? Let's count them...
1. Judas - Betrayed Jesus and led his captors to Him.
2. High Priests - For claiming blasphemy, taking Jesus into custody, bringing Him to Pilate, and getting the crowd to follow them.
3. The Jewish crowd (not all Jews, but those calling for crucifixion) - For calling for the crucifixion
4. Pilate - He didn't believe Jesus deserved to die, but he let Him die anyway, for selfish gain, because he was afraid of a riot.
5. Roman soldiers - They followed the orders of Pilate and tortured (going even further than their orders -- crown of thorns, beating Jesus with a stick, mocking Jesus) Jesus. (As for the movie, I thought the Roman soldiers were depicted cruel and evil during the whipping of Jesus).
6. Satan - He was the one who possessed Judas, and thus leading him to betray Jesus in the first place.
7. God, the Father - He allowed Jesus to die for the overall plan...see scripture below...
[b said:
8. Jesus - He gave His own life for us. The garden of Gethsemane had many exits. Jesus only had to run away from his captors, for He knew what was coming. Instead He met them head on. He could have also called down the legions of angels and escaped His death and showed everyone that He was God. In The Passion you could even see Jesus pulling himself up after the soldiers stopped whipping him, thus making them whip him more. He also pulled himself up to the cross, surprising even the soldiers around him.
You could also lay blame on those who followed him (i.e. disciples, those who cried in the streets for him), for they did nothing to step in as witnesses. Even Peter went as far as denying him.
Now, as for Monica Belluci...
I know of the movie that was mentioned. I have not seen it, but read about it last year in an article about her busy year. (For those who don't know, she was in Tears of the Sun with Bruce Willis, and the Matrix sequels) The article mentioned the rape scene, and (from what I remember...I might have to pull the article out again) the scene was fake. The man in the scene (who was her real-life husband) didn't even have sex with her. It was all done using different effects and angles. She didn't do the scene to glorify rape, but to tell the story of this woman and what she went through, through an artistic form. In fact, several dresses were made for the scene...she loved the dress and asked for her own, but she can't wear it because of the emotions she felt by having to shoot the scene several times. As for the pornographic sites...there are many sites out there that claim to have pornographic pictures of celebrities...but most are fake. I can't say for certain whether these are or not, but in the end...does it really matter? She was a wonderful actress and portrayed her character with great emotion and passion. And, should we not allow non-believers in on such a thing? What a witness it is to work with them. In fact, I even remember hearing about non-believers working on the "Left Behind" movies, which were done by a Christian studio, and how they came to know Jesus through working on those films.
Jango
New Member
That's not what I'm saying. Jesus HAD to die. That was His purpose. If Pilate did not condemn Him, then what would happen?[b said:Quote[/b] ]
We're sneaking dangerously close to a predestination discussion here
What's really messed up is when you enforce consequences that won't ever be enforced ever again on one poor ruler. Like the Pharoah in Exodus, for example, when ever did a nation get a black eye like that for keeping slaves again until the American Civil War?
As for Pilate, well, he was bound over to help the Pharisee's enforce their religious law. Part of his brief as governor would have been to maintain the status quo ante.
As for Pilate, well, he was bound over to help the Pharisee's enforce their religious law. Part of his brief as governor would have been to maintain the status quo ante.
Whitestone
New Member
God made Egypt that strong just to show that no matter how strong a kingdom is, it can not go against the will of the Lord.
I also think He had Egypt suffer the plagues and judgements to show a precurser to what His judgements will be like in Rev.
I also think He had Egypt suffer the plagues and judgements to show a precurser to what His judgements will be like in Rev.
Pilate was a coward. He said he could find no fault with Jesus and yet he didn't set him free because he was afraid of the crowd and their leaders. If he thought him guilty he should have taken responsibility for his actions and not tried to clear himself by washing his hands symbolically.If he thought he was innocent he should have set him free. You can't be a fence sitter- you have to choose.[b said:
Whitestone
New Member
Ok finally saw the movie, took a couple days to sink in a assimilate, checked the bible to make sure everything I saw was there and so on.
I did not find it in any way anti semetic. I did find it to be a very strict warning to religious leaders to make sure not to let their egos try to overtake the Lord's will.
I did not find it in any way anti semetic. I did find it to be a very strict warning to religious leaders to make sure not to let their egos try to overtake the Lord's will.
Jango
New Member
After that, just about everyone knew about Israel's God.[b said:
That's so not true it hurts. Christianity has had three major waves of expanionism - during which it was spread by imperialistic nations during their expansion as a useful means of keeping control of the natives.[b said:
1. The first Roman period - during which Christianity was spread by the empire of the Caesars into Europe and across ot Byzantium.
2. The second Roman period - during which the Catholic church split the world up between Spain and Portugal in exchange for the suppresion of the indigenous religions and the conversion of the locals to catholicism.
3. The Victorian Expansion - during which the Imperial powers of Britain, Holland and France took Christianity to India, China, Africa and Australasia.
Jango
New Member
I mean in that time. I exaggerated by everyone, but many nations knew of it.