Proposition 19

Odale

Odale

Active Member
In case you are not aware, this is Proposition 19.

I ask this because there are drugs that are already accepted (and promoted) in western society that have adverse reactions (alcohol - drunkenness, tobacco products - cancers, etc). What makes marijuana so different?
 
The federal government has no business outlawing drugs. Unless I missed that passage in the Constitution about "the regulation of alcohol and narcotics"...

Anyway.
What God thinks about the government regulating it, I don't know. I do know that He doesn't want us putting harmful things into our bodies like tobacco and high concentrations of alcohol and corn syrup.

I also know that outlawing the consumption of these things only creates more problems. Prohibition didn't work, War on Drugs didn't work. IMO the government should stay out of it.
 
Lazarus said:
What God thinks about the government regulating it, I don't know. I do know that He doesn't want us putting harmful things into our bodies like tobacco and high concentrations of alcohol and corn syrup.
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I have to agree with Lazarus on that.
 
Lazarus said:
I also know that outlawing the consumption of these things only creates more problems. Prohibition didn't work, War on Drugs didn't work. IMO the government should stay out of it.
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Outlawing murder hasn't worked out so well, we should just legalize that too.
 
Personally I think it should be common sense for any law-based society to have the right to regulate or outlaw any judgement-impairing substance outside of medical supervision on the grounds that people who aren't clear of mind don't have full control of themselves to stay in obedience to the law.

As for what the Bible says, there is Proverbs 20:1 which I think applies well enough here:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

Something doesn't have to be defined as a clear moral wrong to still be a bad idea. If you pride yourself on having the control to appropriately moderate yourself with something like this, then consider using that control to pick some other more wholesome activity to fill that need in your life, so as to not risk any unnecessary harm from either your own actions or from being a bad example to someone else who's not as strong against temptation as you.
 
marijuana

I am wondering if we are looking at this as a civil issue or a Biblical/Spiritual one?

Too many people see marijuana as a recreational drug and no big deal. I could not disagree more. I have worked with those in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction for many years. They will tell you that marijuana is a serious problem. In just about every case, dope has been the gateway to greater addiction.

My own family has seen this happen. While there are many who use dope and have not after effects, there is always a trickle down effect.

Just throwing a note in as time is short, I will try to have more later.
 
What you do in private is between God, your family (if you live under your families roof) and you.

The moment you bring it into the public, you cause it to affect me. I want the choice to go into a public place and not be affect by somebodies drinking, smoking or doping. I want the choice to visit a private establishment based on the activities that go on there. And I want the last choice on whether or not to hire or fire based on it as well.

I would rather nobody be hooked on anything outside the occasional use. Do I have beer once in awhile, yes. Do I have a problem with other people who have a drink socially, no. Do I have smoke once in awhile (socially) no. I was addicted to nicotine so doing it socially is a bad idea. Can some people do it socially, sure, why not. Same with drugs. For the most part, I don't know anybody personally that smokes or does drugs simply socially. Not to say it can't be done.

One of the reasons why I don't want my child to drink, smoke or do drugs is because children and young adults (and generally a lot of people) don't have the coping mechanisms in place. Quickly, these recreational drugs are used as a means to not feel something or too feel something different. And that is not right. If you don't know how to deal with depression, smoking, drinking and or drugs are going to be crutches hard to let go of. Especially if you form the habits while you are young and still developing physically, emotionally and spiritually.

The idea that dope and other recreational drugs should become more like alcohol and nicotine is really smoke and mirrors. The reality is, smoking is becoming less and less socially accepted and to some extend so is drinking, especially drinking to excess. If the government wants to legalize it so they can control it and tax it for an additional source of revenue, then that is fine. Go back to my original paragraph. I want the choice to have nothing to do with you if you choose to take part in actives I wish to have nothing to do with.
 
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Icthus said:
...I am wondering if we are looking at this as a civil issue or a Biblical/Spiritual one?...
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Both.

Icthus said:
In just about every case, dope has been the gateway to greater addiction.

My own family has seen this happen. While there are many who use dope and have not after effects, there is always a trickle down effect....
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It is often called a "gateway drug" because people get it from their dealer and eventually start experimenting with other drugs they get from that same dealer, therefore being a gateway. If marijuana was legalized, it would no longer be a gateway drug, would it?
 
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Odale said:
It is often called a "gateway drug" because people get it from their dealer and eventually start experimenting with other drugs they get from that same dealer, therefore being a gateway. If marijuana was legalized, it would no longer be a gateway drug, would it?
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No it is called a gateway drug because it gives a stronger "escape" than alcohol. Legalizing it would have no effect on this.

Legalizing alcohol did not lower the number of addicts either. It actually increased the number. It just became more socially acceptable.
 
Icthus said:
Legalizing alcohol did not lower the number of addicts either. It actually increased the number. It just became more socially acceptable.
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But it did lower the crime rate. No more prohibition put the underground and mafia out of business (well they found other things to do) but it did decrease the crime.

Every civil society has to draw a line somewhere. We can't let the right to bear arms become the right to bear nuclear weapons in your backyard. That being said, for the safety of the society it seems that marijuana isn't more or less dangerous (DUI) than alcohol, but we spend billions of dollars on chasing people down who use it whilst other criminals slip through the cracks.

Personally I would like to see it decriminalized simply for the fact it doesn't make send not to. If you want to keep it illegal then why not make illegal drinking? Why are we not pushing that? Seems like a double standard.

(lots of sleepy typing here)
 
Odale, I understand your argument, it's not a gateway drug because it is illegal. Legalizing it will not change the physiological effect it has on the body, nor will it change physical effect it has on it. The funny thing with drugs, especially with mood altering ones, is that you slowly become addicted to them the more you use them and their effect on the body diminishes over time.

Every two pack a day smoker started with a single cigarette. When one cigarette once in awhile is no longer enough, it becomes one more often, and so on and so on and so on and all of a sudden you are at two packs a day. The fact that cigarettes are legal hasn't changed this quality.

The thing with dope is that its affects are much stronger then nicotine or alcohol. The body becomes more dependent on the THC quicker for its effects. Eventually, even 3 or 4 or 10 joints a day won't do it and before long, you are into the stuff that can kill you on your first dose. Legalizing it will not change this property.

Does every dope smoker become a cocaine addict? No. But nearly every cocaine addict started with dope.

The thing is, people like the high these drugs induce. So much so that even if they can't get it, they make it with what ever they can find under the sink. Meth, crack etc..etc..etc.. Legalizing or decriminalizing some of these drugs is not going to change this real problem either.

I don't know what the answer is. Looking at how they treat alcohol might be a start. Yeah, there are people who, because of their addictive natures ruin their lives and the lives of others. Yet it is not illegal, not everybody who has a glass of win, a pint of ale or a jigger of spirits does so. Is it the education society has put out? Is it that people are generally more mature about it? You can't enjoy a drink outside of a licensed establishment or within the confides of a personal residence.

Something just came to mind:
A lot of very bad people have been put away where the police where able to pick them up on drug possession charges. Is this a tool taken away? Al Capone was put away on tax evasion, it wasn't the murders he allegedly did but at least they put him away. Imagine where we would be if 5 years prior to that if society decriminalized or legalized tax evasion? Doubtful they will ever do so with tax evasion but then, 30 years ago, we were saying the same thing about the war on drugs. And here we are today, talking about it and in some states and provinces, doing it.
 
I am not sure where the idea that Marijuana gives a stronger high or escape then Alcohol comes from.

When people get drunk they end up naked and throwing up or peeing on some random person's lawn. They stumble around and crash into walls and break things. Their motorskills are brought down to nothing and if they are lucky they pass out before they poison them self and require their stomach being pumped. They do crazy things like rape and kill due to total inhibition.

When people get high they laugh and giggle a lot. They desire to sit in a couch and eat Ben and Jerrys. As long as the Pot is not laced with something else, they rarely ever lose control nor end up in the morning having no idea what they did the night before. The high from Pot just doesn't affect you like being drunk does. It is mellow not violent. You don't die from poisoning from smoking too much, you just fall asleep. You don't speed off in a car, instead you slow to a crawl on the roads. Getting high is mellow and you can be totally stoned in a crowd and have no one know as long as you clean off the smell. You can have great control and perform tasks with skill. There is no way you can do that drunk. You lose control when you are drunk and can maintain good control while stoned.

I bet that if legalizing pot encourages people to shift from alcohol to marijuana, it would actually produce a decrease in traffic deaths.

I disagree that the body becomes immune to THC like Avesther described. I know people that smoke pot every day for 10 years+ and still get high just fine off a bong rip or two. I have had to quit smoking nicotine and it was INSANELY hard to do. I had to quit smoking Pot and it was simple. There really is no physical addiction to it. It is just the emotional addiction of "Why would I do this sober when I could do it high and make it that much more enjoyable"

There is no such thing as Pot that can kill you on the first hit. It is a plant....you can consume it endlessly and you will be just fine. What he may be talking about is Pot laced with heroin/coke/meth or whatever, but not pure THC, no way.

I didn't really want to comment on this topic but the misinformation was driving me batty.
 
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ewoksrule said:
I am not sure where the idea that Marijuana gives a stronger high or escape then Alcohol comes from.

When people get drunk they end up naked and throwing up or peeing on some random person's lawn. They stumble around and crash into walls and break things. Their motorskills are brought down to nothing and if they are lucky they pass out before they poison them self and require their stomach being pumped. They do crazy things like rape and kill due to total inhibition.

When people get high they laugh and giggle a lot. They desire to sit in a couch and eat Ben and Jerrys. As long as the Pot is not laced with something else, they rarely ever lose control nor end up in the morning having no idea what they did the night before. The high from Pot just doesn't affect you like being drunk does. It is mellow not violent. You don't die from poisoning from smoking too much, you just fall asleep. You don't speed off in a car, instead you slow to a crawl on the roads. Getting high is mellow and you can be totally stoned in a crowd and have no one know as long as you clean off the smell. You can have great control and perform tasks with skill. There is no way you can do that drunk. You lose control when you are drunk and can maintain good control while stoned.

I bet that if legalizing pot encourages people to shift from alcohol to marijuana, it would actually produce a decrease in traffic deaths.

I disagree that the body becomes immune to THC like Avesther described. I know people that smoke pot every day for 10 years+ and still get high just fine off a bong rip or two. I have had to quit smoking nicotine and it was INSANELY hard to do. I had to quit smoking Pot and it was simple. There really is no physical addiction to it. It is just the emotional addiction of "Why would I do this sober when I could do it high and make it that much more enjoyable"

There is no such thing as Pot that can kill you on the first hit. It is a plant....you can consume it endlessly and you will be just fine. What he may be talking about is Pot laced with heroin/coke/meth or whatever, but not pure THC, no way.

I didn't really want to comment on this topic but the misinformation was driving me batty.
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But when I got drunk, none of that happened. I wonder if everybody is influenced the same way? Are all drunks mean and get into a fight, or are some happy drunks? Does for some one drink do them in, or can they function normally after 3 or 4 drinks with no appearance of being drunk?

Why is it some, who are stoned, have an increase in cognitive and spatial awareness while others can't find their way out a gapping crater? How is it that some who are stoned get the munchies and others get a desire to kill all the pink bunnies with a gun only to find out in the morning they are suspect number 1 in a multi shooting rampage?

Why is it that somebody who has been smoking for 70 years dies of old age while somebody who is 40 years old, smoking for 2 die of lung and brain cancer brought on directly by their smoking? How is it that somebody who has never smoked but has been exposed to second hand smoke every day of their life have a life expectancy of less then that of those who smoke a pack a day?

I think what I'm trying to say is that our brains are all wired differently and all these substances affect them all differently and to assume ones own experience, whether first hand or not, is the exact same experience as everybody. Maybe thats what I'm saying.
 
Avesther said:
I think what I'm trying to say is that our brains are all wired differently and all these substances affect them all differently and to assume ones own experience, whether first hand or not, is the exact same experience as everybody. Maybe thats what I'm saying.
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I agree with you that everyone is wired differently in reactions to drugs/alcohol.
There will always be some extreme situations on either side too.
 
Avesther said:
But when I got drunk, none of that happened. I wonder if everybody is influenced the same way? Are all drunks mean and get into a fight, or are some happy drunks? Does for some one drink do them in, or can they function normally after 3 or 4 drinks with no appearance of being drunk?

Why is it some, who are stoned, have an increase in cognitive and spatial awareness while others can't find their way out a gapping crater? How is it that some who are stoned get the munchies and others get a desire to kill all the pink bunnies with a gun only to find out in the morning they are suspect number 1 in a multi shooting rampage?

Why is it that somebody who has been smoking for 70 years dies of old age while somebody who is 40 years old, smoking for 2 die of lung and brain cancer brought on directly by their smoking? How is it that somebody who has never smoked but has been exposed to second hand smoke every day of their life have a life expectancy of less then that of those who smoke a pack a day?

I think what I'm trying to say is that our brains are all wired differently and all these substances affect them all differently and to assume ones own experience, whether first hand or not, is the exact same experience as everybody. Maybe thats what I'm saying.
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All of this really goes back to what Lloren said - people are doing this with alcohol already. If you legalize one why not legalize both and vice versa.

Avesther said:
Does every dope smoker become a cocaine addict? No. But nearly every cocaine addict started with dope.
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I think there are two sides to this story. One - what you stated: marijuana isn't working for them, they need a stronger kick and they go looking for it; Two - they got curious and experimented with something different.

I bet money that if a person needed a stronger kick because marijuana wasn't cutting it anymore, then drugs are not the core issue - it is something else that they want to escape. If this is the case, then why demonize marijuana (or beer or anything else)?

Legalizing marijuana would probably make it safer to consume and would start a new market - more income, possibly jobs and ...taxes for the government of course. People are using it anyway, I don't see what the big deal is about making it legal to consume.

I'm super tired and what I wrote after this point really didn't make sense. I'll come back, haha.
 
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A good friend of mine is a paramedic and he sees more deaths (mostly overdoses) and health issues with pain medicines like Oxycotin than anything else. You can today get a prescription from a doctor for enough pills to go home and take a couple and die.

Alcohol and narcotics will straight up kill people. Which on the other hand you can't overdose from marijuana, it's chemically impossible.

Random driveby thoughts.
 
Since you are taking civil views as well, here goes :P
In my place, we execute all those carrying over a certain limit and are deemed as traffickers. Pretty much the same in the neighboring nations. Almost nonexistent drug using population here, almost IMPOSSIBLE to get without risking your life and must first have connections.

Now, the PROBLEM. The trade is controlled by criminals, who use deadly violence and exploit their victims. Many of the drug related executions, in fact the vast majority, are just peons, mostly forced into it from borrowing from loansharks, joining the wrong gang or desperados promised a wad of cash telling them it's "all right". The way I see it, it's not working as well as intended either.

Therefore, how about legalizing and controlling it like other dangerous stuff such as alcohol? After all, it's no less deadly than tobacco, and it should be tightly controlled and monitored. Smoking is legal, yet the smoking rates are dropping rapidly with each passing year. Not sure in your part of the world.
 
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