Proposition 19

[cc.slim]

I put my keys and wallet and such up on top of the fridge so the kids would not see. You know, out of sight = out of mind but they found them thus I fought sin for them but in the end I could not win. Time fighting sin doesn't save the sinner. Hiding something that exists with a yes or no only buys time not salvation.

 

[Patriot]

I put my keys and wallet and such up on top of the fridge so the kids would not see. You know, out of sight = out of mind but they found them thus I fought sin for them but in the end I could not win. Time fighting sin doesn't save the sinner. Hiding something that exists with a yes or no only buys time not salvation.

I don't think anyone here believes that outlawing marijuana will provide salvation. But laws do make for a nicer place to live. . .

 

[cc.slim]

lol yes and no hehehe Cali, Colo said ok only for medical reasons but crime went up surrounding the dispensories as per History documentory. Alaska and Canada allow minimal as others with little to no problems well none I read of. Wrong or right as a yes or no has little effect to Christians for sin is sin no matter the laws. a bottle of Jack legal here but down it and the call comes in what happens? Left behind? A temple is a temple and if it be your body or a block house then it is sacred and treat it as such but to force free will is that not a sin as well? hehehe Yes or No wOOt God is wonderful! I can choose for me and pray for you!

 

[RyanB]

For Patriot (or really anyone on this thread) -
Let me first say that while I've said several times that I understand where you folks are coming from and respect your opinions, I'm obviously not doing a very good job of communicating that. When I say "we", I mean we...as in, Christians as a collective, myself included. For example, I need to remember not to ignore the obvious potential issues with legalization.

Prison is not supposed to be nice. But again, no supporting documentation.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=d9c7acf85686ee7d

There is an extremely large amount of supporting documentation from many great studies on the subject. Check them out if you are interested. The issue itself isn't directly related to marijuana, although it obviously has a lot of side applicability.

264 privately operated holding a total of no more than 99,000 offenders.

I've already stated that was a "side comment", which has to do more with our prison system in general than any specific crime (unless they are disproportionately filling these based on crime). Even so, 99,000 people is a lot of people, no matter how small the percentage.

Nope, I agree they are supported by the black market. I agree the black market exists in part due to marijuana. However. . .
A. You seem to think legalizing marijuana will make cartels go away. . .

Taking away marijuana certainly won't kill the cartels right off. I think we obviously both agree cartels are a problem.

I think we should at least also agree that taking an estimated half (according to the FBI) of their funding will severely limit them, though. What happens after that? Maybe they will be extra resourceful and things will get worse. Maybe the funding hit will allow the Mexican government to get an upper edge and punch them down further. Who knows.

I at least hope that we can agree that it would be nice to cut out half their funding in and of itself, with nothing else considered.

B. You're placing the blame on people for outlawing something rather than on people who break the law and keep the black market alive and thriving. The problem is the drug users and the drug makers.

I'm not pretending a problem doesn't exist. I just disagree with you on what the actual problem is. . .

Why "instead"? How about "and"?

Of course I'm blaming the people who smoke marijuana. I've stated several times on this thread that people are certainly sinning due to there being a law. So we agree on that. I've even said I think smoking is a dumb thing to do outside of medical reasons.

That said, just because someone is wrong for breaking the law doesn't mean it's a good law. If it's a bad law with bad societal consequences that outweigh societal gain - then yes, we're at fault too.

If someone would simply provide some biblical guidance for why we should create such a law, I'd be all for it, consequences aside. Until then, yes, I'm blaming us for the consequences of that law in addition to those who break it.

I support all sorts of laws even though they have unfortunate side effects due to sinful people.

I'm speaking generally, and not specifically about this issue: if we make a stupid law without command from God and people suffer because of it - aren't we guilty too?

Amusing. We have all sorts of laws I'm sure you support that have no direct command from God in the Bible, but you're willing to make this one the exception?

I am glad I keep you entertained. Here's how I personally decide to support a law or not:
1) Does God command us to make this law?
2) Does this law help society?

#1 I don't feel anyone here can say we have the command to make such a law. If you do, please come forward. If not...

#2 is obviously subjective; that much should be obvious on this thread. That's really all I'm trying to do, though, by participating in this thread - show the negative impacts that prohibition is causing because they aren't always so obvious. The effects of drug and gang activity, largely (but of course not entirely) supported by marijuana, are having a huge impact on our country.

A key part of our justice system is we have freedom do do as we please until we're infringing on the freedom of others. Smokers don't impinge upon the rights of others, really. They only affect themselves aside from healthcare costs, which are handled with a sin tax set up to help healthcare.

I don't feel that can be said for prohibition - many inner cities are "no hope" areas for kids...where it takes all but a miracle to escape. Obviously marijuana prohibition isn't the only thing driving this, but I WILL go out on a limb and say that yes, anyone who pretends drug trade isn't hurting inner city kids has indeed "put their head in the sand". And no, I'm not referencing anybody specifically.

Fornication, homosexuality, and adultery are all specified in the Bible, do you support laws against them? (Yes I'm totally stealing your question to Abba because it directly applies)

Yeah, that would be a resounding no, especially in the case of felonies/prison.

On homosexual marriage, I think we're at an impasse as a society. I don't feel a Christian should support marriage where God clearly defines as NOT marriage. Yet, because marriage has legal and tax implications, it creates unequal rights. I'd definitely vote down any gay marriage measure, but might vote yes to something providing civil unions the same tax structure...no idea. I think the real solution is to dump the IRS and go fair tax, haha.

When Jesus asked about casting the first stone, he knew we're all guilty. God has already created consequences for us - no need for anything more. If we all went to prison for breaking God's law...who would be left?

So, how about yourself? Felony conviction for any of the above things?

A direct accusation is not softened by a smiley face. Show me where I have been dishonest, or retract the accusation.

After going back and carefully re-reading what I was responding to, I feel it was a fair statement, and I thought my smiley was well-placed.

"Seriously? This is a classic false dilemma. Guess what, I can support prohibition and still be against the cartels. . ."

No, it's not a false dilemma.
IF prohibition does indeed provide a great boon to cartels, as the FBI and I have said
THEN supporting prohibition implies you feel the cartel support is an acceptable tradeoff for said prohibition

First, please remember I'm a computer programmer and anything after "then" is dependent on the "if". Again, I'm not saying you are some awful person who loves cartels, or that you feel we shouldn't be fighting them.

If you want to say you support prohibition in spite of the billions of dollars that flow to cartels and violence that is caused by it, that's a fair statement. It's simply not a false dilemma when there is a direct cause/effect relationship.

Please don't feel I am calling you a dishonest person or implying anything. I'm simply stating what is/isn't honest; what you decide is up to you. If you have any questions about my motive or where I'm coming from, please ask or even PM, because I don't feel I'm explaining it well.

That really depends. If your black market price is cheaper (supply and demand).

I don't see a black market for cigarettes or alcohol, both of which are harder to make yourself than marijuana. Also, don't forget jailtime in cost. Threat of prison isn't stopping people while marijuana is not available in stores, but that will change when it's available.

Source - google black market economics or something of the like.

Less market and less income for the dealers means more desperate dealers. Sounds like more death and in-fighting to me. Also sounds like cartels will have to start branching into other illegal activities. They will not go quietly into the night.

Would you please just agree with me that cutting half of a large organizations funding will hurt them? Money = motive/power. Or google it.

I'm pretending, I'm ignoring, I'm compartmentalizing and I'm dishonest. How about we stop with the insinuations? I realize that the black market feeds cartels. But I don't believe that going with what I see as the "lesser evil" is the proper solution. And for your information, I am boycotting the black market (and the cartels) and have since I was born.

I never insinuated anything, and apparently have done a bad job at communicating that.

I agree that "lesser evil" in and of itself is a weak argument. That said...if there is no other argument, then "lesser evil" would be the greatest argument we have, would it not? I mean, all other things considered, why support the greater evil?

I admire that people lean towards our laws matching God's laws. That's definitely the right bias to have. I'm simply asking people to look beyond that and see that we only have two choices. Those choices are:
1) Legalize and make it easier for people to get high
2) Prohibit and make it easier for cartels to kill/maim/etc

They're really both "evil". However, I humbly submit that the "lesser evil" is the good choice since it is less evil than the more evil one.

Awesome that you personally boycott.

Quite frankly, several statements you have made sound like you believe I have my head buried in the sand because of my position. It would be nice if you just acknowledge that we both have thought through the issue and have come to different conclusions.

Again, sorry that I didn't communicate well. Yours have been my favorite posts to read in this topic, and as Sassamo can tell you, I like a good discussion. Ultimately, at least one of us is wrong. That's what these discussions are for...maybe one of us will change our mind if we can talk through it long enough without getting heated.

<--- smiley for good measure

 

[RyanB]

RiverTigress -
Thanks for that post! I will admit I share many of your fears. I support legalization, but I think that legalization could be a bit ugly.

It's very easy to talk about the effects of prohibition (because we're there now), but legalization is a bit of an unknown factor. Yes, we do have other countries to look at and can get a decent idea, but ultimately it's a bit of a gamble.

I just think it comes down to weighing one vs. the other, and certainly don't blame anyone for a difference of opinion based on that.

 

[RyanB]

Just because we have a history of eerily being able to finish each others sentences, doesn't mean I'm lying or arguementative just because I disagree. I'm not trying to cast any stones at someone. There are laws, laws which people choose to put in place, and we all follow them, that's what a democracy is, that's what we are a part of. I may not agree with a law everyone else puts in place, but I still abide by it. At some point, it was determined that murder was illegal, but, that's one of God's laws. Should we repeal that law? Who are we to impose our secret societies bylaws on the innocent bystanders of the nation?

I also support our current laws, and will continue to abide by them and encourage others to do so if for no other reason than they are laws. I've also stated I have no desire to smoke pot should it get legalized, and will continue to encourage others not to smoke, even if it is legalized. This discussion is on whether or not these things SHOULD be law.

Am I the judge, jury, and executioner, no. Just because I think we'd be better off not allowing certain things in our lives doesn't mean I'm out there pointing fingers at people, proclaiming myself to be better than them.

Well now I'm confused, because you said you did support felony charges for adultery.

Do you think we should make a felony charge for adultery?

Aside from the fact that as other stated, I don't beleive this will take away the black market, my point is, if we want to take on the black market, then we should address the black market, not hope that they will go away naturally by lowering our own standards to their level.

Eliminate, no, hurt, yes.

The black market is not the sole reason I support legaliation; it mostly has to do with the fact that we have zero biblical commandment to outlaw it. In addition, we're given a specific example of a woman caught in the act of adultery where Jesus gets her off the hook.

The whole moral of that story is - if we stoned people for breaking God's laws, we would all be stoned to death.

 

[viglundr]

"A key part of our justice system is we have freedom do do as we please until we're infringing on the freedom of others. Smokers don't impinge upon the rights of others, really. They only affect themselves aside from healthcare costs, which are handled with a sin tax set up to help healthcare"

They do infinge if they are smoking near you

 

[RyanB]

They do infinge if they are smoking near you

That's very true! I'd assume designated smoke areas, although from what I have seen marijuana tends to have a much more pungent stench.

We should probably add increased forest fires due to people not knowing how to use the ash trays in their cars.

 

[Patriot]

I'm a little fuzzy at the moment. . .had about 1 hour of sleep last night. But I've got nothing but time at them moment sitting in the hospital next to my new son. I'll try to make sense as best as I can in my current state of mindlessness.

For Patriot (or really anyone on this thread) -
Let me first say that while I've said several times that I understand where you folks are coming from and respect your opinions, I'm obviously not doing a very good job of communicating that. When I say "we", I mean we...as in, Christians as a collective, myself included. For example, I need to remember not to ignore the obvious potential issues with legalization.

Okay, I consider this settled. Please excuse me if I don't include any other of your responses concerning this in the same post. I'm probably a bit too sensitive. I'll work on growing a thinker skin.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=d9c7acf85686ee7d

There is an extremely large amount of supporting documentation from many great studies on the subject. Check them out if you are interested. The issue itself isn't directly related to marijuana, although it obviously has a lot of side applicability.

Bleh. If I wanted to do the research myself I wouldn't have asked you for the supporting documentation. . .I'll give you benefit of the doubt on this one because I'm too tired to check anything that might be contrary.

I've already stated that was a "side comment", which has to do more with our prison system in general than any specific crime (unless they are disproportionately filling these based on crime). Even so, 99,000 people is a lot of people, no matter how small the percentage.

I understand that it was a side-comment. but I thought you were saying something about how privatization of prisons might be driving the marijuana prohibition. I was just pointing out what a minority private detention facilities were.

Taking away marijuana certainly won't kill the cartels right off. I think we obviously both agree cartels are a problem.

I think we should at least also agree that taking an estimated half (according to the FBI) of their funding will severely limit them, though. What happens after that? Maybe they will be extra resourceful and things will get worse. Maybe the funding hit will allow the Mexican government to get an upper edge and punch them down further. Who knows.

I at least hope that we can agree that it would be nice to cut out half their funding in and of itself, with nothing else considered.

I'd love to cut their funding off entirely. But the cost is too high. Would you support legalizing all drugs to cut off their funding entirely? If not, what is the reasonable line to draw? Perhaps we are just drawing the line at different points in the sand? I draw it before marijuana and you draw it after?

Why "instead"? How about "and"?

Of course I'm blaming the people who smoke marijuana. I've stated several times on this thread that people are certainly sinning due to there being a law. So we agree on that. I've even said I think smoking is a dumb thing to do outside of medical reasons.

That said, just because someone is wrong for breaking the law doesn't mean it's a good law. If it's a bad law with bad societal consequences that outweigh societal gain - then yes, we're at fault too.

Agreed. Classic example is slavery. However, we disagree on whether it is a good law or not.

If someone would simply provide some biblical guidance for why we should create such a law, I'd be all for it, consequences aside. Until then, yes, I'm blaming us for the consequences of that law in addition to those who break it.

All laws have consequences. Do we give in to evildoers because they won't follow the laws by making what was illegal to be legal?

I'm speaking generally, and not specifically about this issue: if we make a stupid law without command from God and people suffer because of it - aren't we guilty too?

Sure. But is the law in question stupid?

I am glad I keep you entertained. Here's how I personally decide to support a law or not:
1) Does God command us to make this law?
2) Does this law help society?

#1 I don't feel anyone here can say we have the command to make such a law. If you do, please come forward. If not...

#2 is obviously subjective; that much should be obvious on this thread. That's really all I'm trying to do, though, by participating in this thread - show the negative impacts that prohibition is causing because they aren't always so obvious. The effects of drug and gang activity, largely (but of course not entirely) supported by marijuana, are having a huge impact on our country.

I agree they have an impact.

A key part of our justice system is we have freedom do do as we please until we're infringing on the freedom of others. Smokers don't impinge upon the rights of others, really. They only affect themselves aside from healthcare costs, which are handled with a sin tax set up to help healthcare.

Smoking is a whole can of worms I don't want to get into. . .

I don't feel that can be said for prohibition - many inner cities are "no hope" areas for kids...where it takes all but a miracle to escape. Obviously marijuana prohibition isn't the only thing driving this, but I WILL go out on a limb and say that yes, anyone who pretends drug trade isn't hurting inner city kids has indeed "put their head in the sand". And no, I'm not referencing anybody specifically.

The difference between you and me is that I say we combat the drug dealers and users, where you say we should legalize marijuana. We both want to accomplish the same thing, we just disagree with how to go about it.

On homosexual marriage, I think we're at an impasse as a society. I don't feel a Christian should support marriage where God clearly defines as NOT marriage. Yet, because marriage has legal and tax implications, it creates unequal rights. I'd definitely vote down any gay marriage measure, but might vote yes to something providing civil unions the same tax structure...no idea. I think the real solution is to dump the IRS and go fair tax, haha.

I agree with this (although I don't think the IRS is going anywhere).

When Jesus asked about casting the first stone, he knew we're all guilty. God has already created consequences for us - no need for anything more. If we all went to prison for breaking God's law...who would be left?

So, how about yourself? Felony conviction for any of the above things?

Pretty sure possession of marijuana is only a misdemeanor unless you have a sufficient quantity that a case can be made that you have intent to sell. That being said, we cannot save people through laws. But if a substance is a detriment to society then I believe it should be banned. I personally see marijuana as a detriment to society.

After going back and carefully re-reading what I was responding to, I feel it was a fair statement, and I thought my smiley was well-placed.

"Seriously? This is a classic false dilemma. Guess what, I can support prohibition and still be against the cartels. . ."

No, it's not a false dilemma.
IF prohibition does indeed provide a great boon to cartels, as the FBI and I have said
THEN supporting prohibition implies you feel the cartel support is an acceptable tradeoff for said prohibition

First, please remember I'm a computer programmer and anything after "then" is dependent on the "if". Again, I'm not saying you are some awful person who loves cartels, or that you feel we shouldn't be fighting them.

If you want to say you support prohibition in spite of the billions of dollars that flow to cartels and violence that is caused by it, that's a fair statement. It's simply not a false dilemma when there is a direct cause/effect relationship.

I disagree still. I believe in supporting prohibition as well as a strong stance (enforcement-wise) against the cartels. A direct if-then statement is not the proper application in this case (this from another computer programmer) due to the large number of variables. While looking at the problem in simplified terms can be helpful, it can also make it harder to see the large number of variables in the situation.

I don't see a black market for cigarettes or alcohol, both of which are harder to make yourself than marijuana. Also, don't forget jailtime in cost. Threat of prison isn't stopping people while marijuana is not available in stores, but that will change when it's available.

Nope, but interestingly enough, the mobsters who started by running alcohol on the black market are still in business long after their primary source of income was made legal..

Source - google black market economics or something of the like.

Apparently, neither you nor I like to do specific research.

Would you please just agree with me that cutting half of a large organizations funding will hurt them? Money = motive/power. Or google it.

It could "potentially" hurt them. In the short term, it would most likely hurt them. But taking the mobsters as an example, I don't see them going away.

I agree that "lesser evil" in and of itself is a weak argument. That said...if there is no other argument, then "lesser evil" would be the greatest argument we have, would it not? I mean, all other things considered, why support the greater evil?

Why not fight both evils?

I admire that people lean towards our laws matching God's laws. That's definitely the right bias to have. I'm simply asking people to look beyond that and see that we only have two choices. Those choices are:
1) Legalize and make it easier for people to get high
2) Prohibit and make it easier for cartels to kill/maim/etc

They're really both "evil". However, I humbly submit that the "lesser evil" is the good choice since it is less evil than the more evil one.

This is simplifying again. #1 does not necessarily make it harder for cartels to kill/maim/etc. And given the current situation #2 does not necessarily make it harder for people to get high. . .

The situation is too complex to boil it down to a simple choice between a and b.

Again, sorry that I didn't communicate well. Yours have been my favorite posts to read in this topic, and as Sassamo can tell you, I like a good discussion. Ultimately, at least one of us is wrong. That's what these discussions are for...maybe one of us will change our mind if we can talk through it long enough without getting heated.

I too, enjoy a good discussion. I'm gonna say both of us could be wrong in certain facets of our understanding and arguments. And both of us could have equally valid reasons for supporting the stance we have chosen. It is not an easy problem with a simple solution, hence the disagreement.

But if you'll just agree that I'm correct and you are wrong, we can all move on and consider this issue closed.

 

[Sassamo]

Well, maybe intentions are getting clearer, maybe points of view are being molded, but I think overall, we're narrowing this down. There's been a lot of good debate, a lot of good points made, but a lot of it is just secondary issues. There's a lot of things I'd like to comment on, point out, discuss, continuing down the 'rabbit trail', but instead, I'm going to try to sum it up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the majority of the voices would agree that if God's against it, they would be. Clearly, items like murder or theft are not under question, as they are clearly indicated in the Bible(though I'm not sure why adultery has been outcast by some). So it seems to me we just need to focus on the core of this discussion, ironically, we need to end where we started. What DOES God have to say about the use of marijuanna?

Obviously, it's not so black and white, or there wouldn't be a need for this discussion. So it has come down to personal conviction/interpretation, and any supporting biblical evidence, or lack thereof should that be the case.

I for one, as could be understood from previous posts, stand against it's use. If I had the time, I could list dozens all supporting my interpretation in one manner or another, but I will just sum it up. Alcohol debates aside, the bible is clear on intoxication. At no point is it ok for a man's judgement to be impaired. Now, it's easy enough to find facts supporting your opinion, whichever side of the fence you're on. Sure, you could find some study saying that the first sip of a diluted alcoholic drink shows some fraction of impaired thinking, or another study to say that x amount of marijuanna will still leave you fully functional, but I think it's safe to say those numbers are a little skewed. Even proponents of marijuanna will say 'don't smoke and drive'.

I think it's faily common knowledge and common sense that smoking marijuanna will temporarily impair your judgement, and that is where I believe we have crossed that biblical line.

Ecclesiastes 12:12-14 12And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[RyanB]

Patriot -
Thanks for that post. I think I understand a bit better where our disconnects are. If I write it as:
If (we legalize) {

If (people go to black market) {

cartels get more money​

}
​

}

Philisophically, you place the blame solely on the folks directly causing the problem, the smokers. I of course blame these people too, but also feel we should prevent the whole occurance because I think the cons outweight the pros. I do feel it's fair to simplify it this far, simply because I'm only referring to the money the cartels get as a result of marijuana prohibition and nothing else.

I guess reading through, the biggest difference is I look at this problem as one modular part of the bigger picture; you look at it as something we should stomp out because smoking is wrong. Like you said, we're "drawing the line" at different places. I think the basic difference we have is right here:

All laws have consequences. Do we give in to evildoers because they won't follow the laws by making what was illegal to be legal?

I believe that by legalizing marijuana, I'm not allowing people to smoke. Those people are still under God's law, and I am simply trying to limit the bad by going for what I feel is the lesser evil. You feel that legalizing marijuana is essentially endorsing it.

Did I understand that correctly?

I agree with this (although I don't think the IRS is going anywhere).

Ron Paul 2012...you just wait.

Pretty sure possession of marijuana is only a misdemeanor unless you have a sufficient quantity that a case can be made that you have intent to sell.

Yup, 1oz = felony, below = misdemeanor. 1oz is a lot of pot, I believe. Though this misdemeanor has a lot of side effects compared to many others.

Nope, but interestingly enough, the mobsters who started by running alcohol on the black market are still in business long after their primary source of income was made legal..

Well yeah, they sold marijuana.

Apparently, neither you nor I like to do specific research.

Eh, it's not that. I've written papers on black markets back in school and this is pretty basic econ stuff, whereas you don't have the time right now to be hunting down 15 different in-depth studies so I don't bother posting them.

Ultimately, black markets come with legal and bodily risk, so it's very rare that a black market will exist where legal means are readily available.

Why not fight both evils?

I agree! Just not with prohibition - lots of better ways to fight. Of course that comes down to philosophy again.

The situation is too complex to boil it down to a simple choice between a and b.

I still think it can be looked at in modular fashion. It's just that a and b each happen to be super complex with a lot of guesswork. Guesswork means it's easy to disagree.

But if you'll just agree that I'm correct and you are wrong, we can all move on and consider this issue closed.

Ok, I agree that "I'm correct and you are wrong".

Sassamo -
I definitely don't disagree with you that smoking is not very godly, especially in excess. I still don't see you addressing on why that should translate to a law, though.

Maybe this is really where our own biases come in - I tend to prefer the government stay out of things unless there is a very clear negative impact of them not acting.

 

[Patriot]

Bleh. . .now I've had about 2 total hours of sleep since Saturday night (ahhh the joys of being a parent). Perhaps I'll try to answer when my mind is back inside my head.

 

[cc.slim]

If I said yes would it save lives beyond the users? I'm thinking of my latino brothers and sisters in between since the north side doesn't seem to have the same issues as they.

 

[viglundr]

Just wanted to comment since a number of times it's referred to/assumed here that making it legal will take money away from the cartels and hence greatly reduce/limit them.

Personally I believe that the people behind making a profit off of drugs (Cartels, Mafia, dealers, etc) will not be hurt that bad if it suddenly became legal, they will take a small hit and then they just change their strategies and carry on. You may see more hard drugs, more human smuggling (big business there), forced prostitution rings and you will see them move into stuff you would never even think they would get involved in.

Those types of organizations are out there for profit at any cost and it's amazing (and very sad) the extent of what they do. For example -Motorcycle gangs, a number of the top honchos in the Hells Angels (and other biker gangs) who have done horrible horrible things to others wear a suit and tie to work daily and not only plan/run the illegal side of dealing drugs, protection business, prostitution, etc but they also run legitimate business as well, anywhere they is a profit to be made.

Speaking of profit, you can make a large amount of money in green energy right now; windmills are literally a cash farm. So what happens? A very large amount of the wind farms in Europe are now controlled by the mafia. Do a search on the Mafia and wind farms in Europe, and see how corrupt they have gotten.

These organizations are there to make a profit at any cost and place no value on others; if marijuana becomes legal it seriously would not affect them more then a short transitory period.

 

[Patriot]

Patriot -
Thanks for that post. I think I understand a bit better where our disconnects are. If I write it as:
If (we legalize) {

If (people go to black market) {

cartels get more money​

}
​

}

But that doesn't necessarily mean that those who support prohibition want those cartels to have more money. You are trying to simplify the issue too much, and that ignores other factors in the issue.

Example:

I spank my son (shocking, I know). Not because I want him to feel pain, but because I want him to learn a lesson I am trying to teach. You could say that by spanking I will make my son feel pain, but that doesn't even begin to account for the entire picture. It doesn't begin to address the grief I feel each time I must punish him, or how much it crushes my heart to see him cry. . .

I believe that by legalizing marijuana, I'm not allowing people to smoke. Those people are still under God's law, and I am simply trying to limit the bad by going for what I feel is the lesser evil. You feel that legalizing marijuana is essentially endorsing it.

Did I understand that correctly?

Actually, I think legalizing marijuana will increase its use. And I see the increase of its use as detrimental to the country. I don't think having more people getting high will be a good thing.

Just wanted to comment since a number of times it's referred to/assumed here that making it legal will take money away from the cartels and hence greatly reduce/limit them.

Personally I believe that the people behind making a profit off of drugs (Cartels, Mafia, dealers, etc) will not be hurt that bad if it suddenly became legal, they will take a small hit and then they just change their strategies and carry on. You may see more hard drugs, more human smuggling (big business there), forced prostitution rings and you will see them move into stuff you would never even think they would get involved in.

Those types of organizations are out there for profit at any cost and it's amazing (and very sad) the extent of what they do. For example -Motorcycle gangs, a number of the top honchos in the Hells Angels (and other biker gangs) who have done horrible horrible things to others wear a suit and tie to work daily and not only plan/run the illegal side of dealing drugs, protection business, prostitution, etc but they also run legitimate business as well, anywhere they is a profit to be made.

Speaking of profit, you can make a large amount of money in green energy right now; windmills are literally a cash farm. So what happens? A very large amount of the wind farms in Europe are now controlled by the mafia. Do a search on the Mafia and wind farms in Europe, and see how corrupt they have gotten.

These organizations are there to make a profit at any cost and place no value on others; if marijuana becomes legal it seriously would not affect them more then a short transitory period.

Right, or they become partially legal enterprises. As they already have the infrastructure in place they could potentially sell for less than competitors. Negligible impact in their cash flow. Cartels survive. . .people continue to die. . .and marijuana use increases. . .

I'm not seeing the upside. . .