Scientology

[Eon]

Yike - I know that only a Sith deals in absolutes, but that is far too subjective and self-referential for me to feel happy that what you call a religion I wouldn't call a cult!

 

[Mr.Bill]

I believe the main distinction between religion is this:
A Religion seeks the Truth, serves a God, and results in morality.
A Cult creates a lie, serves self or a man, and results in legalism or lawlessness.

Now hold on there Mr. Jericho. I fail to see where you extrapolated those two definitions from the dictoinary definitions above. Essentially you are saying that religions are true, and cults are false. But in essence, as we can see by those two definitions, the two are very similar. So my question to you is this: How can you tell the religions from the cults? The true from the false? For there is no objective basis for comparison. Without one, you could have the two completely mixed up, could you not?

This is one of my largest problems with the concept of religion.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Come on DV, have you been to a church and not been allowed to leave because you didnt tithe? NO, and if you did, then you should sue for kidnapping.

Where did you hear about someone being invited to a Scientology meeting and then having the doors barred shut until money was forked over? How would you feel if you were in a church service and the plate was passed to you? Wouldn't you feel OBLIGATED to donate? What if you don't? There are MANY churches that DO require that you tithe, you may not like that fact, but it's true. If you don't tithe you wont' be a member of that church for long.

Titheing (sp?) is a sign of obedience to what God has asked us to do.

If God requires you to tithe and you refuse, don't you find yourself facing the situation you described above?

It is an outward expression to others of our faith and trust in Jesus.

Somehow I don't believe the majority of Christians share this view. That smacks of the Pharisees, this whole "outward expression" thing.

The same goes for baptism.

See above.

Yeah i also read the webster version of cult, and gave you my definition of it since that is what you asked for. I could have cut and paste that, but you would have called me out on it and accused me of not giving what i think. I know how you guys think If you think some of that has been standing on a soapbox, then you dont want me to really get going and tell you what I really think. =)

You guys? Tsk tsk.

And actually, I WOULD like you to really tell us what you think. Why arent' you being fully honest with us?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Dictionary.com, Cult:

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Come now Jericho, you know as well as I do this could easily fit Christianity. You may not believe your religion is false, but many people do. Define unconventional. I think Benny Hinn lives in an unconventional manner.

2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
3. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
4. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
5. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
6. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
7. The object of such devotion.
8. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

The rest of these definitions could also fit Christianity quite easily.

I believe the main distinction between religion is this:
A Religion seeks the Truth, serves a God, and results in morality.
A Cult creates a lie, serves self or a man, and results in legalism or lawlessness.

That's not a very objective view. Many "religions" result in anything but morality. I noticed that you capitalized God. What about religions that serve a god other than yours?

How many times has Christianity created lies, served the baser wants of man, resulted in leaglism and lawlessness? Remember the Dark Ages? The Inquisition?

The line between religion and cult is much finer and vaguer than you may realize.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Questions trying to cast doubt or question my ability to believe will fall on deaf ears..because these are absolutes to me and not open for interpertation. My authority in these matters is the Bible which is absolutly the Word of God.

Again, isn't this something you require of nonbelievers that you witness to?

Why should we be open to changing our theistic view when you aren't willing to do the same?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Questions trying to cast doubt or question my ability to believe will fall on deaf ears..because these are absolutes to me and not open for interpertation. My authority in these matters is the Bible which is absolutly the Word of God.

Again, isn't this something you ask nonbelievers to do? To have an open mind to YOUR brand of theism? Why should we do something that you aren't willing to do yourself?

If you want me to be open to the possibility that I am wrong, I require YOU to believe that you could be wrong too.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Frankly..when it comes to you DV i do not expect you to change your mind. You ahve shown you simply do not want to. That's your choice as it is mine to stay the way i am thinking and be "closed minded" which is why i have not tried to change your mind..

Ah sheesh hescommin, it's not about a matter of "wanting to" or not. It's all about the evidence and the logic. How many times must it be said?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Actually it's faith.
"Faith cometh by hearing..and hearing cometh by the Word of God"

I can have faith in anything, hescomin. Faith alone will not infallibly lead me down the path of truth. You'll need logic and evidence to make sure you're heading in the right direction, and that's the most important part, is it not?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Frankly..when it comes to you DV i do not expect you to change your mind. You ahve shown you simply do not want to. That's your choice as it is mine to stay the way i am thinking and be "closed minded" which is why i have not tried to change your mind..

Then you either A) Believe that I am a liar or B) You don't know me well at all.

I have said time and time again that I am open to the possibility that I am wrong. Such is the position of Science, believe what you will with the information available to you. When new information is acquired, your view is susceptible to change.

You, on the other hand, are extremely stubborn, to the point where you refuse to accept any new information, ESPECIALLY if it has the potential to change your views.

For Christians to entertain the possibility that our beliefs are wrong then negates the bible and destroys Christianity at its foundation. We are not required to entertain anything by other men. God asks us to beleive him. It's his way or the highway to hell..I choose His way.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

How do you propose to PROVE anything without questioning your belief system?

 

[Dark Virtue]

"faith cometh by hearing..and hearing cometh by the work of God" It's really quite simple. Nowhere does God say,"I am aksing you to follow me because it makes sense" In the bible folks hwo follow often do the most illogical things in service of God. you are not going to find God by ogiclaly, factually rationalizing it until you can factually prove it. A relationship with God has it's foundation totally in faith.

Then why do we have this huge chunk of gray matter taking up space between our ears?

 

[Dark Virtue]

it doe snot take much brainpower to Folow God..

MUST...RESIST...URGE...TO...COMMENT...

 

[Mr.Bill]

Whoops, I was under the impression that God gave us brains for a reason.

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

The topic has gone far off track and tempers are flaring. I'd like to explain the purpose of the CGA and this forum so that there's no confusion.

The Christian Gamers Alliance is first and foremost a ministry. While I encourage civil debate, I recognize that it is impossible to prove the existence of God. We, as Christians, are called to deliver the Gospel message and live obeying the commandments God has given (which includes loving all people). We are not obligated to convince anyone of the Gospel's truth. We do not pretend to be neutral regarding religion and faith.

If forum members refuse to respect others, then threads will be locked.

Topic closed.

 

[Tek7 (Legacy)]

After contemplating my previous post and locking the thread, I have decided to re-open the thread and issue an apology.

While I maintain that members made disrespectful posts, I recognize that I would have been wiser to notify the Religious Discussion forum moderators than to intervene directly. I understand this could be misconstrued as a lack of faith in the moderators and be cause for taking offense. I apologize to Genesis and the other moderators for my rashness. They do an excellent job of moderating what is sure to be our most difficult forum.

I ask that all forum members carefully consider their posts before submitting them. If they include sarcastic attacks on other members, then it would be best for all involved to cancel or modify the post.

Thread re-opened.

 

[PapaToad]

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

How do you propose to PROVE anything without questioning your belief system?

Ohhh, I love this verse, I question things all the time, and I am forever stuck in this loop. If its not bibiical it must be false. ( A debate long over killed) but then its goes against popualr thought or threoy.

I maintain, we may never completely get it, in our limited human undrstanding. I have never comes across anything that disproves the exisitance of God. An interesting demila for sure

As for scientology, its has someinteresting tentants, but some very bizare ones in my humble opinion

 

[Eon]

I have already said that I have no problem at all with a Christian who admits that his position is not based on logic or evidence.

I only debate the meaning of scripture with such a person - because I am still trying to understand Christianity to this day, in much the same way that it behooves a man to understand a hungry tiger.

 

[Avesther]

Now hold on there Mr. Jericho. I fail to see where you extrapolated those two definitions from the dictoinary definitions above. Essentially you are saying that religions are true, and cults are false. But in essence, as we can see by those two definitions, the two are very similar. So my question to you is this: How can you tell the religions from the cults? The true from the false? For there is no objective basis for comparison. Without one, you could have the two completely mixed up, could you not?

This is one of my largest problems with the concept of religion.

The reason you fail to see where he extrapolated his conclusions from the dictionary definitions is because you misread his conclusion. No where in his conclusions did he say "religions are true." You did. He said, they seek the truth.

 

[Jericho_falls]

Thanks for that GP... what I was trying to get at were the underlying purposes of the two. I saw that religions are founded from a revelation of some god whereas cults seem to be founded on the deception of some man.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I know you are going to try the overused argument that lesser intellect equals easy targets for religion. *yawn*. Go ahead and say it DV..i have heard it a hundred times...and rankly..if you think about it..it doesn't. it takes more brainpower that's wasted to try to rationalize God and therefore you wind up spinning your wheels(wether accidentally or on purpose..doesn't matter). meanwhile this "simpleton" has more brainpower to spend on the neccessary things on life instead of spinning my whells in a constant logical loop trying to logicaly explain the illogical.

You said it, not me. Not only that, I had absolutely no intention of bringing up intelligence here. Why? I know there is a HUGE difference between intelligence and wisdom. The trick is balancing the two.

You take offense too easily, I wasn't being abrasive in any way. Take a deep breath and chill out.

Since you brought up the issue of intelligence, let's examine scripture, shall we?

1 Corinthians 1
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

What do these verses mean to you?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I maintain, we may never completely get it, in our limited human undrstanding. I have never comes across anything that disproves the exisitance of God. An interesting demila for sure

Guess what? I have never come across anything that disproves the existence of God either.

Now, if you can actually PROVE God's existence, I'd love to hear it.