So I guess we're not Ned Flanders enough
- Thread starter CCGR
- Start date
I don't get the Ned Flanders comment. :/
Many of the objections he's raised sound quite a lot like the ones I've raised.
His closing paragraph sums it up well: "I poked around Christ Centered Gaming in vain, hoping to read about how Alan Wake’s dark world might resonate with a Christian, or how a Christian might feel about the historical representation of his religion in Paradox’s strategy games like Victoria II. No such luck. Instead, the Christian perspective is reduced to an absurd morality score.... In other words, the only potentially interesting observations are reduced to a numerical score that equates Christianity with facile morality."
He justly criticizes the review trends at CCG (at least as of when I was last involved). I oppose scores in reviews, especially morality scores, not so that fanboys lose grounds to ignorantly attack CCG reviews but because the system strives so hard for objectivity that it lacks meaning. Like he said, "So many reviews are dryly observational, minus any meaningful perspective, or much insight, or even context."
You and I have gone rounds, and rounds, about this issue, but to call his blog entry-style post "a CCG hater site" is to grossly misread and misunderstand him. He clicked there hoping for something interesting, not something that agreed with his worldview, and instead of taking his criticisms (which are both justified and having merit) into consideration, you brand him a hater both on CCG and here.
CCG has long had a hugely missed opportunity to write thoughtful reflections on games, exactly the sort of stuff that article talked about. And when someone says that, you write him off because he proposes something that goes against your way of thinking without even displaying a second thought that he could be saying something meaningful. Basically, your response to his criticism makes me sad.
Many of the objections he's raised sound quite a lot like the ones I've raised.
His closing paragraph sums it up well: "I poked around Christ Centered Gaming in vain, hoping to read about how Alan Wake’s dark world might resonate with a Christian, or how a Christian might feel about the historical representation of his religion in Paradox’s strategy games like Victoria II. No such luck. Instead, the Christian perspective is reduced to an absurd morality score.... In other words, the only potentially interesting observations are reduced to a numerical score that equates Christianity with facile morality."
He justly criticizes the review trends at CCG (at least as of when I was last involved). I oppose scores in reviews, especially morality scores, not so that fanboys lose grounds to ignorantly attack CCG reviews but because the system strives so hard for objectivity that it lacks meaning. Like he said, "So many reviews are dryly observational, minus any meaningful perspective, or much insight, or even context."
You and I have gone rounds, and rounds, about this issue, but to call his blog entry-style post "a CCG hater site" is to grossly misread and misunderstand him. He clicked there hoping for something interesting, not something that agreed with his worldview, and instead of taking his criticisms (which are both justified and having merit) into consideration, you brand him a hater both on CCG and here.
CCG has long had a hugely missed opportunity to write thoughtful reflections on games, exactly the sort of stuff that article talked about. And when someone says that, you write him off because he proposes something that goes against your way of thinking without even displaying a second thought that he could be saying something meaningful. Basically, your response to his criticism makes me sad.
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CCGR
Member
What I got out of it is that he's upset that we're not offended or pointing out why Christians shouldn't be playing video games. We play games, we point out what's in them and let the viewers decide if they want it or not. It's not our job to tell them to burn their games because they're evil. We praise games for what they do right and what;s morally wrong with them. I'm not trying to compete with Gamespot or IGN but we want people of all background to respect our reviews and view points. I don't think that's asking too much. The reviews are good and the quality is better than is has been in the past...
That's not at all what he said, though... and it doesn't even reflect what I said. He's talking about opportunity not to condemn games, and this is what I think is your primary misconception of his criticism, but to draw parallels between game designs/stories and the Christian worldview. It requires more thought, but it's a whole world of potential that's totally untapped.
It'd be like reviewing the recent Narnia movies and not saying anything about Aslan's similarity to Christ. That's what he's talking about... and what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with that.
It'd be like reviewing the recent Narnia movies and not saying anything about Aslan's similarity to Christ. That's what he's talking about... and what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with that.
CCGR
Member
Yeah I see what your saying that's never been our objective, we never go that "deep" into our game reviews..more quick and dirty straight to the point/facts of what you'll find. Our staffers have blogs now where they can speak their mind on the gaming industry or games in general or whatever they want to talk about. They all have a soap box if they want it. 
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
If I may so bold* as to jump into someone else' argument, I think I might be able to shed some light on what seems to be going on here...
1. There's two ways to skin a cat. Or review a game.
The writer wanted a review about spirituality in games. What he got was a review of positive or negative content in games from a conservative Christian perspective.
Both reviews may be fully Christian. But they can feel very different, and if you're looking for one, you may feel very odd reading the other.
2. For some very odd reason, the reviewer (claiming not to be a Christian) was very passionately searching for review type A and got type B. And got upset as a result.
3. I would say his ideas of what Portal 2 is about are very interesting but also kind of sketchy.
4. I don't think that it's right to make CCGR change itself from "objective content rating" to "subjective explorations of theology in pop culture."
5. Tek and I have talked about creating a website dedicated to subjective exploration of theology in pop culture. Kendrik, if you're interested in writing for it, let's talk (even though it's just a huge nebulous idea right now.)
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*The wisdom in the Bible calls this foolish, not bold.
1. There's two ways to skin a cat. Or review a game.
The writer wanted a review about spirituality in games. What he got was a review of positive or negative content in games from a conservative Christian perspective.
Both reviews may be fully Christian. But they can feel very different, and if you're looking for one, you may feel very odd reading the other.
2. For some very odd reason, the reviewer (claiming not to be a Christian) was very passionately searching for review type A and got type B. And got upset as a result.
3. I would say his ideas of what Portal 2 is about are very interesting but also kind of sketchy.
4. I don't think that it's right to make CCGR change itself from "objective content rating" to "subjective explorations of theology in pop culture."
5. Tek and I have talked about creating a website dedicated to subjective exploration of theology in pop culture. Kendrik, if you're interested in writing for it, let's talk (even though it's just a huge nebulous idea right now.)
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*The wisdom in the Bible calls this foolish, not bold.
CCGR
Member
saw your comment and replied to the article...(edit please don't criticize my site while you ran Rev21 for a while you see how hard and how much work goes into it. I just feel stabbed in the back by your posts dude.)
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Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
I should also mention that while I don't find a "Morality score" works for me, I'm a) childless and b) very game-knowledgeable.
I'm not a somewhat-clueless parent who doesn't need to be confused by a discussion of whether or not Diablo II is God-honoring or how Final Fantasy VII was one of the most influentially spiritual works of the 20th century when what I want is to know is whether buying a game is going to expose my kids to sexual or cabbalistic or otherwise offensive content.
If I was, I might want a nice "pat" answer on whether or not this game is good for my kids.
I'm not a somewhat-clueless parent who doesn't need to be confused by a discussion of whether or not Diablo II is God-honoring or how Final Fantasy VII was one of the most influentially spiritual works of the 20th century when what I want is to know is whether buying a game is going to expose my kids to sexual or cabbalistic or otherwise offensive content.
If I was, I might want a nice "pat" answer on whether or not this game is good for my kids.
I'd no intent to stab you in the back. I'm sorry to have done so when I never meant to. CCG does do what it sets out to, and Neirai is right that it wouldn't make sense to demand a change of CCG from one purpose to the other.
As for the rest of stuff with you, moving to personal chat.
@Neirai: I'm intrigued. Talking about the idea sounds good. I'm more than swamped for the foreseeable future, but I'm still interested.
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XionTawa
New Member
Eh...Idk...I always liked CCGR -> http://www.eternaltruthministry.com/2011/02/christ-centered-gamer-game-reviews/
^that's why ^_^
^that's why ^_^
Side note... Apology to the public: I apologize for any and all disruption I have caused in this thread.
Beat me to it, Neirai.
CCG serves a very important purpose to a group that is consistently ignored and even spurned by game "critics." I never understood the purpose of CCG as providing commentary on spirituality or religion in games so much as reporting what content is or is not available in games and how that content is relevant to concerned Christian parents and/or gamers.
The ESRB performs a similar, yet very different function, in that the ESRB informs the public why a game carries an AO, M, T, or E-10 rating but takes no care for content specifically objectionable to Christians--and that's as it should be. The ESRB is a religiously neutral organization.
CCG fills a gap and does so very well. No site or online community can be all things to all people and they do all people a disservice when they make the attempt. We do our best work when we understand our vision, purpose, and strengths and decide which tasks we do and do not undertake based on those guidelines.
I believe there's also a place for a blog featuring posts by Christian gamers exploring the points where faith and gaming intersect, but such a site would complement rather than negate or diminish the role of CCG. As Neirai mentioned, I've expressed an interest in starting just such a blog, but I'm already pressed for time to keep up with my responsibilities as President of the CGA and as President of Tribe of Judah (and then there's my more pressing responsibilities as husband and new parent).
My interest persists, but there are only so many hours in a day and only so many staff members in CGA and ToJ to whom I can delegate tasks. Nevertheless, if I ever were to help found such a site, Neirai and Kendrik would be among the first two CGA community members I'd invite to participate.
Odale
Active Member
I see the merit in questioning why CCG doesn't delve into the relationship between games and what the Bible says about what goes on in them - in fact I think it's a fantastic idea to do that.
Also, I think its abundantly clear that in that review, Mr. Chick was not bashing Christianity (or even CCG, really) but instead raising valid points of view.
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CCGR
Member
I replied a couple times in that article and was very respectful. He seems reasonable. I can definitely see the merit in have deeper insight on the games and I don't plan on changing the sites focus but I am certainly willing to accommodate that. I have recently implemented staff blogs on the site and we can use those as soap boxes where people can speak their mind and not worry about slapping a moral score on it or following review guide lines. Obviously you will still be representing the site so no cussing etc. If anyone is interested in a blog please PM or e-mail me and we can discuss this further. You'll have to register on the site (free)
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Well, here's my thoughts on the subject of having a CCG blog, as opposed to having another site dedicated to exploring theology in pop culture.
I'll follow them up with another idea that might be mutually beneficial.
1. When I blog, I don't just write about video games. Popular culture is much bigger than just video games, and I tend to write about books, comic books, anime, manga, poetry, movies, collectible card games, and songs on the radio. If I limit myself to video games, I probably won't write all that much.
2. I'm not sure that my content would get approval. Frankly speaking, art is messy, God's grace is messy (and beautiful,) and whenever theology hits the real world, it gets messy. Combining all three of those into a package can be messy. I'm not sure that you would want my thoughts on CCG. I'm not sure you wouldn't, but I'm not sure you would.
I'm not even sure my theological groundwork would line up with the goals of CCG. It takes a certain level of "universalism" to come to the realization that theology exists inside secular works and to treat it with the respect it deserves. Please note: the above link was not made by me, nor thoroughly read. I used it to reference the doctrine of prevenient grace, something you sort of need to believe in order to really do this stuff. At least, that's my opinion.
I also have a degree in literature analysis. This gives me the tools to dig deep into a subject in order to find nuggets of grace, and also gives me an iron-clad stomach when it comes to topics and content.
In short, that means that it wouldn't be too far off to hear me start a blog off by saying something like:
Actual book; my actual thoughts on the subject.
I'm not sure you'd want this on your site. I'm not sure I'd want this on your site, either. I think it might jeopardize and confuse any effect you might have on helping Christians make informed decisions about their game buying.
Now, the positive. At no point am I saying that CCG and my own goals can't work together. I'm wondering about the possibility of making my own website sometime in the future, and then providing some blog entries from that website to CCG (assuming that you consider them content-appropriate.)
I'm also hoping to recruit some writers... anyone interested?
I'll follow them up with another idea that might be mutually beneficial.
1. When I blog, I don't just write about video games. Popular culture is much bigger than just video games, and I tend to write about books, comic books, anime, manga, poetry, movies, collectible card games, and songs on the radio. If I limit myself to video games, I probably won't write all that much.
2. I'm not sure that my content would get approval. Frankly speaking, art is messy, God's grace is messy (and beautiful,) and whenever theology hits the real world, it gets messy. Combining all three of those into a package can be messy. I'm not sure that you would want my thoughts on CCG. I'm not sure you wouldn't, but I'm not sure you would.
I'm not even sure my theological groundwork would line up with the goals of CCG. It takes a certain level of "universalism" to come to the realization that theology exists inside secular works and to treat it with the respect it deserves. Please note: the above link was not made by me, nor thoroughly read. I used it to reference the doctrine of prevenient grace, something you sort of need to believe in order to really do this stuff. At least, that's my opinion.
I also have a degree in literature analysis. This gives me the tools to dig deep into a subject in order to find nuggets of grace, and also gives me an iron-clad stomach when it comes to topics and content.
In short, that means that it wouldn't be too far off to hear me start a blog off by saying something like:
Actual book; my actual thoughts on the subject.
I'm not sure you'd want this on your site. I'm not sure I'd want this on your site, either. I think it might jeopardize and confuse any effect you might have on helping Christians make informed decisions about their game buying.
Now, the positive. At no point am I saying that CCG and my own goals can't work together. I'm wondering about the possibility of making my own website sometime in the future, and then providing some blog entries from that website to CCG (assuming that you consider them content-appropriate.)
I'm also hoping to recruit some writers... anyone interested?
CCGR
Member
Umm yeah good points and yes I don't think that would fly too well on the site, we try to err on the conservative side. Having your thoughts on video games you play would be interesting though. I'd like to get to know you better before having your entires go unmoderated. If you need a web host let me know
If you need a web host let me know