The Alien Question part 1

[Icthus]

Interesting discussion Ewoks. But, you are not seeing the entire picture of the Gen. account.

I personally know people smarter than me on both sides of this issue. Some believing it is a literal 6 24 hour periods and others saying it is a literary device meaning 7 set periods of time.

I hope we all do see two creation accounts in Gen 1 & 2 and are not limiting the discussion to only one of the accounts?

Personally, I am not a fan of Ewoks' overstatement and divisive argumentative language.

I am unsure of how God created the universe. Thankfully, I don't have to be. I am sure that God could have done it in 7 seconds or less had He wanted too. For me to definitively state anything is a bit hard for me personally.

Paul warns all of us about being involved in arguments that are not profitable. Therefore, I know one thing and that is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. If you agree with that then join me in my journey.

 

[ewoksrule]

2 accounts? No way. Genesis 2 is complementary to Genesis 1 and is hardly even called an account let alone a 2nd one.

Unfortunately Icthus your view is very similar to the one I mentioned earlier that is helping to diminish Christianity in America. Telling people that "well we cant be sure about Gen 1 when it says 6 days, it could mean anything, so lets not discuss it and lets just trust in Jesus!" This is what is driving our youth right out of the church. People want to know that the Bible gives real answers and can be taken for truth when it makes clear statements. To tell them well don't you worry about that but trust Jesus.. does not give them assurance but doubt. To hear it from elder Christian examples makes it even worse. We have so many wonderful preachers of the Word that for some reason have let the religion of evolution pollute their thinking and in turn cause much fall out in the church.

I also think that Paul would consider the kinds of false doctrines presented in this thread and take them to the mat. He would not pass this off as a topic that is of no use. Do you not know that all of the gospel hangs on the doctrines presented in Genesis? The Creation, Corruption, Catastrophe and Confusion that is explained is of incredible importance without it the reasons for Christ and Cross fall away.

I am not a fan of Icthus understatement and poo pooing language. This is an important battle here and not one to let slip by and brush off.



ps. this post is said with some "ribbing" as I know Icthus in real life and am giving him a hard time

 

[Abba San]

Going back to stc's comment about joining a group that are not all on the same page...I joined SoE/SOE. lol. I am a Baptist. I am a Christian. Most groups I identify with have people I am not on the same page with.

Clearly, the guy who started this thread had some views that were not based in scripture. Not just an interpretation problem but a misunderstanding of any kind of systematic theology. More a reading into scripture than gleaning from scripture.

To appreciate that there are difficult and unclear portions of the Bible is not to deny the inerrancy nor the authority of the Bible. Even Peter said some of Paul's writings were difficult to understand. Some of the most difficult to understand are the first eleven chapters of Genesis and all 22 chapters of Revelation. The beginning and the end of the world as we know it.

Given that there are good, godly, prayed-up, spirit-filled, scholarly, men and women who are sold out to Jesus - who have differing views on certain portions of scripture - I'd say it is healthy for Christians to discuss different interpretations based on nuances in the language and not become dogmatic where there is no need for dogmatism.

I'd also say that differing views is not what hinders the gospel. I think it has more to do with how Christians live and speak with non-believers when they present their views. I shared this verse in the verse-of-the-day forum the other day - I think it says it all about sharing:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)

Gentleness and respect - with whomever and whenever we share our views. One of the things I like about our forum is that there is gentleness and respect displayed by most who take the time for serious dialogue. Thanks for that.

 

[Abba San]

By the way - I think this discussion is worth looking at by others. I'd like to see it under a different thread than the Alien Question. lol

 

[Zeena]

The word for day is used over 2000 times in the Bible and I don't buy the argument that in 1999 of them we take it for what it says but some how in Gen1 it all of the sudden means millions of years. If we can't take the Bible for what it says about some things then why trust it for the other matters like Salvation.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Zeena]

I agree, if we have one Christian going around saying the Earth is millions of years old, and then another one going around saying it's only 6,000 years old people are going to think that Christians are stupid and don't know what they are talking about. Think from their point of view, would you really "join" a group who's members aren't all on the same page?

We are..

We don't..

And it's not up to us to save them

Philippians 2:1-13
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[ewoksrule]

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

To respond to your use of this verse (a great verse but out of context for this topic) I am quoting Ken Ham

Objection 3

2 Peter 3:8 states that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,” therefore the days of creation could be long periods of time.

Answer

1. This passage has no creation context—it is not referring to Genesis or the six days of creation.
2. This verse has what is called a “comparative article”—“as” or “like”— which is not found in Genesis 1. In other words, it is not saying a day is a thousand years; it is comparing a real, literal day to a real, literal thousand years. The context of this passage is the Second Coming of Christ. It is saying that, to God, a day is like a thousand years, because God is outside of time. God is not limited by natural processes and time as humans are. What may seem like a long time to us (e.g., waiting for the Second Coming), or a short time, is nothing to God, either way.
3. The second part of the verse reads “and a thousand years as one day,” which, in essence, cancels out the first part of the verse for those who want to equate a day with a thousand years. Thus, it cannot be saying a day is a thousand years or vice versa.
4. Psalm 90:4 states, “For a thousand years in your sight are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.” Here a thousand years is being compared with a “watch in the night” (four hours29). Because the phrase “watch in the night” is joined in a particular way to “yesterday,” it is saying that a thousand years is being compared with a short period of time—not simply to a day.
5. If one used this passage to claim that “day” in the Bible means a thousand years, then, to be consistent, one would have to say that Jonah was in the belly of the fish three thousand years, or that Jesus has not yet risen from the dead after two thousand years in the grave.

 

[Zeena]

To respond to your use of this verse (a great verse but out of context for this topic) I am quoting Ken Ham

I would not go so far as to place a wall before the Lord, saying, this far and no further

To be totally honest about being created a human being, is to be humble in admitting we don't know anything the way our Lord does.

I could easily agree with the hypothesis that what you suggest is true.
But then, truth would be relative to my understanding, which it is not-heh

Ecclesiastes 6:5 & 8
Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other. For what hath the wise more than the fool? what hath the poor, that knoweth to walk before the living?

Isaiah 42:19-20
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

Isaiah 30:21
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 Corinthians 4:10
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

 

[ewoksrule]

"Context" is extremely crucial to understanding the Bible. This is not putting any wall in front of God, this is using wisdom to understand His Word, that He has given us to study and learn from. The Bible is a massive amount of text and while some things are perfectly designed to line up with other areas of scripture, some most definitely are not meant to apply to those areas.

By pulling verses out of context you can make the Bible say anything. I can easily make a great case that Jesus was a homosexual and had gay lovers if all I did was throw out a few single verses back to back.

 

[Zeena]

"Context" is extremely crucial to understanding the Bible.

No, it is not

What is important is to understand God

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

This is not putting any wall in front of God, this is using wisdom to understand His Word, that He has given us to study and learn from.

What about those He created who are incapable of reading the Bible through no fault of thier own?

Are they now incapable of understanding the Lord becuase of thier capacities?
Or does He rather, reveal Himself to us by His Spirit?

The Bible is a massive amount of text and while some things are perfectly designed to line up with other areas of scripture, some most definitely are not meant to apply to those areas.

While I concurr that the Lord works in marvelous ways, I do not live as though I had no Saviour. Everything I have, I've recieved in the Person of Jesus, and He is sufficient to the task

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God is NOT the Bible, the Bible is written of God through persons submitted to Him, but it is not God Himself, but rather, His Words.

As we submit to Jesus, He Lives His Holy Life in and through us, without cause for concern, or need for anything apart from His Holy Spirit, not EVEN the Bible

Colossians 2:6-9
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

By pulling verses out of context you can make the Bible say anything. I can easily make a great case that Jesus was a homosexual and had gay lovers if all I did was throw out a few single verses back to back.

God is not contradictory, therefore, neither is His Word

 

[Zeena]

I would like to add, please, that Jesus DOES study the Word in and through us as we abide in Him, and I am in no way accusing you of sin.

It's just that I find doctrine to be a stumblinglblock for the truly weak

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Romans 14:4b
Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[dorkelf]

I agree, if we have one Christian going around saying the Earth is millions of years old, and then another one going around saying it's only 6,000 years old people are going to think that Christians are stupid and don't know what they are talking about. Think from their point of view, would you really "join" a group who's members aren't all on the same page?

I guess it depends on what it means to be on the same page. To some, on the same page means that we must have no disagreements about politics or social issues. Certainly, disagreements about those things turn away non-believers. To others, we can disagree about those things, but not about how to interpret scripture. We must abide by one understanding of the book of Revelation as to the order of the tribulation, Jesus's return, etc. We must abide by one understanding of what Paul meant about the role of women in church. To do otherwise will turn away non-believers. Is that what we need to do to be unified as Christians? If so, which denomination has it right on all these matters of scriptural interpretation?

I think it is a misunderstanding of the concept of unity to think that we as Christians must agree about all matters of biblical interpretation and to do otherwise will turn the lost away from the gospel of Christ. I think there is room for different denominations and different understandings of minor points in scripture and how to interpret scripture. That is also what is preached in the church I attend, and the one before it. My old pastor used to always say 'major in the majors' and don't get caught up in arguments over minor things. Not to say they shouldn't be debated, they just shouldn't be the hill where we pitch our tents and fight our battles. If they are, the secular world will surely misunderstand what we are fighting for.

 

[Zeena]

I guess it depends on what it means to be on the same page. To some, on the same page means that we must have no disagreements about politics or social issues. Certainly, disagreements about those things turn away non-believers. To others, we can disagree about those things, but not about how to interpret scripture. We must abide by one understanding of the book of Revelation as to the order of the tribulation, Jesus's return, etc. We must abide by one understanding of what Paul meant about the role of women in church. To do otherwise will turn away non-believers. Is that what we need to do to be unified as Christians? If so, which denomination has it right on all these matters of scriptural interpretation?

I think it is a misunderstanding of the concept of unity to think that we as Christians must agree about all matters of biblical interpretation and to do otherwise will turn the lost away from the gospel of Christ. I think there is room for different denominations and different understandings of minor points in scripture and how to interpret scripture. That is also what is preached in the church I attend, and the one before it. My old pastor used to always say 'major in the majors' and don't get caught up in arguments over minor things. Not to say they shouldn't be debated, they just shouldn't be the hill where we pitch our tents and fight our battles. If they are, the secular world will surely misunderstand what we are fighting for.

What a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful post!

To me, that 'same page' is abiding in Christ Jesus!
To me, Unity is found in Him, where there is neither male nor female, slave or free, but CHRIST, in all and through all to the Glory of God the Father!

And that 'Unity' is unbreakable, for we are in Him Who is True!

The only thing we need to agree upon is The Gospel of Jesus! :XD

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And how it pertains to us

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The rest is just puddin

--------------------------

I have a testimony of this for those whom the Lord gives time and inclination to read

I am moving, out of province, 900 kilometres away from my place of earthly origin in less than two weeks, to a place of my husbands origin, his friends and his family [yet mine as well through marriage].

This being a spur of the moment decision based on unforseen events [my husband quit his job because his boss was constructively dismissing him by changing every single condition of employment to a unilateral contract in his own favor, thereby making it impossilbe to work there any longer.]

I will be leaving behind my friends and family, my discipleship group and my bodily unwell [deathly ill] mother.

BUT, I have the PEACE of God, which passes ALL understanding!!!
I know this is working together for my good, that being the Glory of the Lord in my body! That even now, in the death of my most cherished earthly relationships, the Lord will be magnified in my body!

NOT ONLY SO, but I KNOW that I am with my friends, with my family in SPIRIT!

I am with them even now! I am with them for all Eternity in Christ Jesus my Lord! For they too, are found in Him! :XD

And that's how come I have the Peace of God in the midsts of my trials

EVEN THOUGH my emotions are swaying like a drunkan man atm, I know my God Lives!

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

 

[dorkelf]

Your situation will be in my prayers Zeena. I'm glad you know God is in control. Times like these are when you can really draw close to the Lord and develop a trust in him that is more difficult when everything is comfortable and smooth. But you'll need support from your online friends as you work towards establishing new relationships in your new locale.

 

[ewoksrule]

Ditto that. Praying here as well.

 

[Zeena]

Thanks very much for your prayers and your friendship

Praise God!

 

[David's Sling]

Context IS quite important when studying scripture. It should not be brushed aside in favor of "trusting in god" or spiritual leanings. Without context, misguided feelings of spirituality can distort the meaning of God's Word into something profane. I have seen churches tear themselves apart from the inside spiritually because of misplaced context and "spiritual feelings." my church, formerly, until it was dead inside, a rotting shell of false doctrine and complacency! Do not tell me that context is unimportant.

sorry, but I do feel quite strongly about this after my experiences...
back on topic:

There are several words for 'day' in Hebrew. I have studied this topic, and while some of them can represent vague periods of time, the word used in Genesis 1 is very, VERY rarely used in this way. in fact, it has a specific grammatical rule that when it is an abstract or symbolic term, there must be clear explanation or context immediately before or after. Instead, the context around the word in Genesis 1 is "There was evening, there was morning, the <number> day." From evening to morning was how Jews measured their literal 24 hour days in everyday life. Far from leaving room for interpretation, the context explicitly reinforces the 24 hour meaning. That, combines with the specific, non-metaphorical word usage leads me to hold a 24-hour day literal view, albeit with some quirks. (a theory for another time, perhaps)

 

[Zeena]

Context IS quite important when studying scripture. It should not be brushed aside in favor of "trusting in god" or spiritual leanings. Without context, misguided feelings of spirituality can distort the meaning of God's Word into something profane. I have seen churches tear themselves apart from the inside spiritually because of misplaced context and "spiritual feelings." my church, formerly, until it was dead inside, a rotting shell of false doctrine and complacency! Do not tell me that context is unimportant.

Did Jesus look to man for His teaching or to His Father in Heaven?

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Or, how about Saint Paul, did he recieve his teaching from men?

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

How about the Apostle John, while on the isle of Patmos?
Did he have Scripture to referrence, or, rather, the Spirit of God?

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Is there such a things as babes in Christ? Yes!
BUT, they don't have to remain that way if they will only submit to Him for Life!

Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

What we need is the Living God.
You know, the One Who wrote the Scripture in the first place...

Again, I ask, what do you do with a believing person incapable of reading?
Are they incomplete or suffering from "misguided feelings of spirituality", a "shell of false doctrine and complacency"?
Or, rather, are they the Temple of the Living God?

Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.

sorry, but I do feel quite strongly about this after my experiences...

You admit an appology, yet stick with your natural assumption, I don't get it. What are you sorry for?

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

back on topic:

There are several words for 'day' in Hebrew. I have studied this topic, and while some of them can represent vague periods of time, the word used in Genesis 1 is very, VERY rarely used in this way. in fact, it has a specific grammatical rule that when it is an abstract or symbolic term, there must be clear explanation or context immediately before or after. Instead, the context around the word in Genesis 1 is "There was evening, there was morning, the <number> day." From evening to morning was how Jews measured their literal 24 hour days in everyday life. Far from leaving room for interpretation, the context explicitly reinforces the 24 hour meaning. That, combines with the specific, non-metaphorical word usage leads me to hold a 24-hour day literal view, albeit with some quirks. (a theory for another time, perhaps)

There is a time before 'days'.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Before this 'first day', there were no 'days'.
So, what do you do with the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters?

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

http://www.kjvbible.org/death_of_the_ancient_world.html

http://geophysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_earth_has_fewer_craters_than_moon

 

[David's Sling]

I personally think that a large amount of time may have passed between the creation of the universe (heavens and earth) and God's shaping of the earth into a home for man as seen in Genesis 1. There is no proof of this, but it fits well with modern scientific discovery and, most importantly, does not contradict the text as there is no mention of time periods before the 1st day.

To clarify, I am NOT diminishing the work of the Spirit in the hearts of men. However, you cannot use early new testament times, and the formation of th scripture, as an excuse that the Bible itself is unnecessary. God worked through prophetic leading and inspiration to form the scripture and lead his people rightly, but now that we have the completed Word, prophecy (Godly prophecy at least) came to an end. Now, God works through the scriptures to lead and teach. It is not the written text and paper, but the ideas and words within them that are important. Even the illiterate can be instructed in the truth of the Word.

I am not speaking about those who get teaching from men and forsake God's leading. I am speaking of those who either disregard the clear teaching of the Bible, taking up a false view through misplaced context, or even twist scripture to fix their own purposes, destroying the original intent of the Author. Since God is behind the scriptures, the "Author's" intent is very, VERY important to be understood, right?

Translation away from the original language may trend towards confusion and misunderstanding of the original text, but that is no excuse for false doctrine.

 

[MaidMirawyn]

Going back to the original question...we know there is something intelligent besides us and God: angels and demons.

I think a lot of paranormal and extraterrestrial "activity" is due to overactive imaginations, mental illness, and recreational substances. I think the rest is most likely of angelic or demonic origin. (If you didn't accept the Bible as true, how would YOU categorize an angel or a demon?

However, I will not totally rule out the possibility of life elsewhere. While I find it highly unlikely and find no compelling biblical reason to believe in it, God is God.