The GodHead

PapaToad

PapaToad

Active Member
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

I am near finished with my 1st bible reading front to back, and I have come to a curious question.

I do pray everyone is doing well. I do have a question/inqury someone may help me with, I understand the concept of the God head, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But I am curious weather they are the same oneness, ( One entity) or are they an oneness like husband and wife are supposed to be.

I am just curious on everyones thoughts on it.
 
They are all three the same person and they both exist at the same time. Read the book Solving The Bible Mysteries it goes in depth about this.
 
Wow....You have just struck one of my biggest concerns recently Montrez. I work with a guy who is doing some very hard and serious research into the concept of the Trinity and Godhead. This guy, like me, has a difficult time sitting in church and singing praise to anyone other than the Father which we were commanded to only do. I do believe in all 3 (Father, Son, Spirit), I am just unsure of how the relationship works or is. I've had it explained to me dozens of times, and it is always explained the same way, but there are still questions that cannot be answered.

Why are the 3 denoted seperatly with their place in Heaven?

Why does the Son sit at the right hand of God? If they are One, would they not share the same throne?

Why does only the Father know when the end is? If they are the same, wouldn't they all know?

I know that Christ said that "He and the Father are One" but he also said that "the Father is greater than I". Where does that leave things?

I guess my thoughts on it are that I am still confused. My coworker is actually going back and using Vines and Strongs to understand the meaning of the words used to translate the concept and see if it means what we are told it means.

And these are the reasons for my concern: I want to know what the truth is. This stuff scares me: What if we are believing that lie? What if we have been mislead? That is why I am researching to understand if I believe everything I am told to believe.

Matthew 7:21-23
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
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2nd Thessalonians 2:6-12
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
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2nd Timoth 4:1-4
1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.
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Is what we are told in church to believe truth? Does the english translation of the Bible uphold the truth?


The truth is out there.....

Cory
 
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A one dimentional object is a line. Length.
A two dimentional object is a square. Length and height.
A three dimentional object is a cube. Length and height and width.

Our knowledge of science and physics is limited based on the limits of our perception. We know that in Christ's resurrected body, he was able to appear and disappear, but we don't know how, nor can we perceive the invisible like demons and angels that are around us.

God lives on a level of existance that is outside of our perception. Therefore, our attempts to explain the essense of God may at times seem contradictary while at other times impossible.

Jesus taught us to pray in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So we know of the three. We know that there is one God, one and only. But we also know that God is separate persons of the three.

There is only one God, one entity, one being, one mind. Pretty much one person. But we also know that there are three: Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Spirit. These three are separate, yet not separate. They are all one God and one essense, yet we know that on the cross, God separated from God. God pour His wrath on Himself: on His Son.

Its a very confusing thought and it is unreasonable. But God exists in a level of existance where it all makes sense and where all the pieces fit together perfectly.

So that's how I view God in my mind and in my heart, as being so vast and amazing that He exibits properties of other dimentions we cannot perceive: properties of his Trinity, but of His oneness.

Kind of a lame description I'm sure, but it works for me. hehe
 
I understand complete, Though I want to be care full here. I do not think what we know or were taught about the Godhead is a lie, or even miss leading because it has to work one of two ways. If all three are the same entity, Fine. I can't wrap my mind around that revaltion. But I could accept it. Or the three entities are so in tune with one anothe on so sort of spiritual exsistance, they commune pretty much inunison as do some couples only multiplied by the infinite power of Father God.

My concerns are like yours, I Know Jesus is my lord and savior. But He prayed to God the Father and TAlked with him as such. There fore there were two, and after his Res, he sent the Comforter, the Holy spirit.

So I know there are three distinct personages here. Now if the Holy spirit infills, and did jesus, the two were seperate, but one. I grasp that, but if there the same being, That opens another can of worms, nothing we can not live with or that would change doctine

I just find in confusung to have to pray in the name of my Savior, to petiotion the Father. I guess I see it like having to ask my boss to ask hher boss when she is the BOSS.

Yes thats how I see it, LOL

Wow what a bag of worms. I will check out the book Phantom, and if all three were the same person, then all three would have to exsist at the same time. So Thank you sincerely for the insist, but it still leaves me at the door.

I'm knocking, I'm Knocking
 
Malohaut said:
A one dimentional object is a line. Length.
A two dimentional object is a square. Length and height.
A three dimentional object is a cube. Length and height and width.

Our knowledge of science and physics is limited based on the limits of our perception. We know that in Christ's resurrected body, he was able to appear and disappear, but we don't know how, nor can we perceive the invisible like demons and angels that are around us.

God lives on a level of existance that is outside of our perception. Therefore, our attempts to explain the essense of God may at times seem contradictary while at other times impossible.

Jesus taught us to pray in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So we know of the three. We know that there is one God, one and only. But we also know that God is separate persons of the three.

There is only one God, one entity, one being, one mind. Pretty much one person. But we also know that there are three: Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Spirit. These three are separate, yet not separate. They are all one God and one essense, yet we know that on the cross, God separated from God. God pour His wrath on Himself: on His Son.

Its a very confusing thought and it is unreasonable. But God exists in a level of existance where it all makes sense and where all the pieces fit together perfectly.

So that's how I view God in my mind and in my heart, as being so vast and amazing that He exhibits properties of other dimensions we cannot perceive: properties of his Trinity, but of His oneness.

Kind of a lame description I'm sure, but it works for me. hehe
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Malohaut I love you dearly and we’re friends, but I am going to have to pick apart your thread. Forgive me, I am not being mean; I am just looking for clarification.

1st we can perceive the invisible; (Spirit Realm) we can and are called to engage in the battles of the spiritual realms. For our fight is not against flesh and blood.

2nd Please show me where in the bible Jesus taught us to pray in the God the Father, God, the Son, and God the holy spirit. I have seemed to have missed that instance.

3rd God lives (exists) on a level of our perception, we do not have a God who leaves us to our devices, He tells us Seek me, I am here, I am showing myself to you, I am knocking on the Door, let me in to your life.

God can not separate from himself, there is not scriptural proof of that! God is God, true,
And I do not believe God makes it hard to comprehend him, I believe something’s we need to research our selves. This concept should not be that hard, Nothing I have read in the Bible is as challenging as the God head, which I have never seen termed in the bible, though, I might have missed it, I am very human.

Thank you though Malohaut; it was a thoughtful of you to share and I do appreciate it, I am just being my normal self.

God Bless
 
The Trinity and Godhead are not taught in the Bible. The concept is a systematic approach to it based upon what scripture does tell us. I could show you a few sites who discuss this in depth. Many are pro-trinity, I know of one that is Unitarian belief that gives a really hard arguement against the Trinity

Like I say, this is something I have been struggling with myself recently and trying to understand.

Cory
 
I would like to clarify, I am not for or against, I am learning. Thats the best i can say, so If answer you or ask for clarication , please do not become offended. I would need to explain this concept one day and as always I hold to scripture, so any thing in the bible pro or con, I am interested in. I believe in the Father , Son and holy Spirit. I am just hav9ing a hard time understanding where we get they are the same entity.
 
MontrezAnthony said:
I would like to clarify, I am not for or against, I am learning. Thats the best i can say, so If answer you or ask for clarication , please do not become offended. I would need to explain this concept one day and as always I hold to scripture, so any thing in the bible pro or con, I am interested in. I believe in the Father , Son and holy Spirit. I am just hav9ing a hard time understanding where we get they are the same entity.
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Agreed. I am at that same place. I still hold to my belief of what I was taught, though I question how that conclusion was reached and is it valid. I hold that the 3 exist, but how they exist together is what I don't understand. :)

Cory
 
Congratulations MA on your Bible reading! That is a monumental task that takes much discipline!
I agree with Malohaut 99%!! :) I think he meant to say that we are to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 We pray in Jesus name because it is His death, burial, and resurrection that makes it possible to approach the Father's throne.
The Bible says that we now see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Our God is exciting! He and the things of Him are mysterious and make us seek after Him. I don't think we will ever, not throughout eternity, exhaust finding new and wonderful things about Him to add to that which we already know. We will always be discovering new nuggets in the Bible! Yet, here on earth, our understanding is limited. The same faith it takes for salvation, it takes to believe the Trinity exists, just as the Bible says it does. That is where our knowledge stops. God has given us what is important for us to know. And do not forget, straight from the Garden of Eden, the enemy has not changed...he wants to shed doubt on God's Word!
In the last verses of Ephesians speaking of the body of Christ and marriage is intermingled. God says:

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. vs. 32

He knew that it would be difficult to comprehend. Is it not just as difficult to understand that when we are married, we are literally one flesh with our spouse? Because of the Ephesians verses, I believe that the marriage should be a picture of the Heavenly Kingdom and how it functions, it's order, if you will, and it explains the Godhead. I once read in these posts, and firmly believe, Heavenly things will not completely be understood until we reach Heaven. He will have more senses, we will see things 100% Spiritually then. Streets of gold, but see-through, like glass? Unimaginable!

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three agree in one. I John 5:7

I do not fully comprehend it. I have come to the same conclusions as Malohaut. The Word says it, it is true!

Thaddius, the Bible tells us to judge ourselves that we be not judged. The helmet of Salvation tells us that we are saved. We know how to be saved. We can probably remember the day that we are saved. We can figuratively take a stake and drive it into that day! We trusted the LORD and asked Him into our hearts. That settles it! Those that will say, "Lord, Lord!" Are doing works to gain salvation. They are not trusting in Jesus for salvation, but in their good works.
The only thing that we can do is take Jesus at His Word. If we have done the steps of salvation, (my signature has them for those who may not know), we are saved! Once saved, we will show the fruit explained in Galatians 6:22~23. Notice it is the "fruit" all those things will be manifest. I think those grow, ripen, and will not reach full maturity until we see Jesus face to face. In addition, the Bible tells us

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love. I John 4:7~8

How do we know if we are Christians? We are Spiritually able to show forth unconditional love. Just like Jesus did at the Cross...forgiving and turning the other cheek has not one ounce of flesh attached to it, that is God in us! The verses in Matthew you mentioned follow Jesus telling us that we can know them by their fruit, and are preceded by Him telling us that we are to live it, not simply hear it. Basically, I think it is saying we can know how to be saved, but unless we have accepted Jesus for ourselves and have a relationship with Him, that knowledge is worthless. The good things that we do, while we should live for Christ, and makes us like the man who lived upon the rock, vs.24~25...our good works could never get us to Heaven.

I hope that helps. I don't think there is a single Christian that has not been in the spot of questioning their salvation and shuddered at the fact that some will not be in Heaven that thought they would. Jesus, as you already know and have accepted, I feel certain, Thaddius, is the only answer.

Jesus is the way.
Jesus is the truth.
Jesus is the life.
No man can come to the Father, but by Him.
 
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Outstanding Mercy,

You quote scripture awesomely and when I become a pastor, I may have a job for you
But for know;

I concur there will be heavenly mysteries that we will never answer, But I hate to be a DV, (God bless his dark little heart) But No one answered the question to any satisfaction.

You quoted scripture beautifully, but knowing one day I will be a Pastor and ordained minister, where in the bible does it say the Father, The son and , The Holy spirit are the same entity. I completely believe they are one to the fact there is some heaven hive mind at work. (Best analogy I have) but is Jesus, God the Father? Or God the Son, Is he both and if he was, why does he sit at the right hand of himself? Why did he have to pray to himself. If Jesus is GOD the father and God the Holy Spirit, Why did he have to leave so he could comfort us.

Things I think about alone in the dark.

I would like someone to point me to Scripture, where it points out all three are the same entity. Otherwise I am force to believe Like a Husband and Wife they are one!

God Bless
 
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Thanks Marcylene,

That was insightful.

I want to clarify a few things though.

I don't doubt my salvation. I know that I am saved and how I was saved.

My concern is how we worship. Do we just worship the Father as commanded? Is it ok to sing praises and worship to Christ? (the "They are all 1 and the same" view says yes) The other view is that no, it is not ok to worship anything other than the Father. We are saved through the Son. We pray in the name of the Son. We are filled with the Spirit. But as Montrez asks, are they the same entity? How do we know they are?

To me, personally, this is very important. I want to make sure that I am worshiping God, in all His fullness. Catholics are pointed out as blasphemous because they worship Mary and the saints along with Christ, the Spirit, and the Father. I want to ensure that when I attend a worship service and sing praises to the other two alongside the Father, I am not commiting blaspheme as well. :)


Cory
 
Let me Say Thad, That it is my belief that whether they 1 are one or separate entities, I do not believe I have ever worshiped the Holy Spirit, though I have prayed and called on His power many a time. As instructed by Christ.

When the woman of ill repute washed the Lord Jesus Christ feet, he did not rebuke her for Her “”Worship”” so I can not believe worshiping Jesus is Blasphemy. If father and Son are one, either way, they are meant to be worshipped. EVERY KNEE will bend before Christ, seems pretty clear to me.

Philippians 2:9-11 (New International Version)
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So I believe The Lord Jesus Christ Deserves your worship and Its even in Scripture. So I do hope that helps THAD.

I believe in the God Head, its just I want some scriptural proof that they are they Same entity.


God Bless
 
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MontrezAnthony said:
Pil 2 : 11
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
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See even here they are described as two distinctly seperate entities. So am I wrong to believe they are one as man and wife are of one flesh. ?

Questions

More Questions
 
I would say considering that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same... it is okay...when we worship one, we worship all. lol You guys have me studying now!
Here is a good online book about the Holy Spirit. http://www.baptist-city.com/Books1/holy_spirit.htm I have a tape that is similar in teaching by this preacher. I cannot say it about many preachers, and I say it with a grain of salt...I would've trusted him with my life. He is with the LORD now. The teaching I feel is very true, but since it is not something that we often hear, it is a bit foreign.
It would seem where the Catholics are questioned is in worshipping the saints and Mary, that along with having to go to the Pope for prayer, well, then...purgatory...

MA, do you not feel that the verse from I John 5:7 explains the Trinity?
 
1 John 5
Faith in the Son of God
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
6This is the one who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


Awesome Scripture and I made up my Mind I hiring you as soon as I become a Pastor. But Sister, This says nothing about the Father and The Son being the same entity.

Lets say You, Thad, and I are church leaders, We have worked closely together for years, Lets say 20 years, we have seen births , deaths, fanatical hardships, membership booms and national coverage. We are tight, are true church family. One day you are stuck in the position to confront and coach a member of our team about ungodly behavior.

This member comes to me and Thad: saying Mercy, she’s a snot, She has no right to tell me this, You over tune her decision right now. I would have to look at this person and say NO, what Mercy said stands.

Now this is a simplified analogy, but a true one, if we were so close that I could 2nd guess your behavior and attitude about certain things. I would trust you, I would have confidence you would respond in a way we all trusted and accepted. I can only fathom , the God head works this same way, only with infinity trust and acceptance of their roles.

This is how I see the relationship of The God head, I can only imagine, they are separate entities, representing the God Head. God dicating what he expects from each of them.

Father God _ Big Boss main

The Son _ King of heaven, and Father Gods Son_ by spirit

The Holy Spirit _ the very Spirit of God himself, avaible for use by the general public

So I encourage you Mercy, Please to show me where, cuz if its anywhere its in scripture where All three are one

God Bless
 
Lets break it down further,

My Son is born of me,

He is my son
We have the same spirit/Dna in us
We are separate yet the same

Our will is done in our business

My son has the authority I gave him

But what you are saying is

Me and my son are the same physical/spiritual entity. Seems odd to me, and so far it’s the only Christian thing that does, but everything else I believe is based in simple language out of the bible.

There who are one is not here,

Unless we come back to the analogy of a Man and a woman becoming one flesh!
 
Hey Anthony, It is sooo nice to see you more actively here again. While I was in college many moons ago I heard a sermon which helped me greatly explain to my friends from the East...... lots of Japanese, Chinese, Korean roommates and friends..... that may help you. I did not read every word written before but this is how my more childlike belief understands. Pretend that the Trinity is an apple. An apple is an apple is an apple but it has three very distinctive parts...... the skiin, the fruit, and the core. They are all still the same apple but they are also very separate parts at the same time. This has been the easiest and best understood way for me to explain God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I do not know if this is exactly what you are looking for but again I like it simple. Blessings,"Angel"
 
Well, the image that comes to my mind when trying to comprehend the trinity is that of moist warm apple pie. Cut the pie into three pieces and leave in the pie plate. The filling of moist warm apple does not seperate, it is one filling still between the three pieces. Label one piece the Father, another the Son and the third the Holy Spirit. They are three seperate parts of the whole, existing apart from each other (three distinct peices of pie) and existing as one (can not seperate because the filling flows between the three and there is no distinction).
 
These analogies are fine, except they impound the problem that the 3 do not share knowledge. The Father knows things the other two do not. The Son subordiates Himself under the Father. The Spirit is only referenced as being sent by the Son as a comforter and Spirit to guide us. If they are truly 3 in 1, then why is presented to us the way it is? Why are we commanded to only give glory to the Father? The anology of 3 in 1 has many holes in it. I'm not denying anything, I am looking for what fills those holes, and until I find it, I will continue searching. :) Because someone decided 1600+ years ago that is how I should believe is not good enough for me. I want to know how they came to that conclusion.

Cory
 
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