The Pledge and Separation of Church and State

dorkelf

Active Member
“Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear, maintain the principles that he believes, worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse, or loss of property, for his religious opinions…”

Our nation has a religious heritage that is strongly Christian. I will even go beyond that to say that one particular Christian – not only a Christian in fact, but a Baptist Minister – played a very important role in the formulation of our US Constitution. His name was John Leland, and the above quote is his. Leland considered the separation of church and state to be vital for the free practice and expression of religious faith, and it was largely his advocacy on this issue that compelled Madison to append the ‘establishment clause’ onto our Constitution:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6952&abbr=cs_


If Leland were alive today, what would his fellow Christians think of him? How would he stand on the issue of the pledge of allegiance to one nation, “under God”? Would he approve of our government encouraging children to make a pledge acknowledging one God presiding over this nation, when many of their families may actually worship “three Gods, no God or twenty Gods”?

For many this is a difficult issue – for others (on both sides of the issue) personal agenda may get in the way too much to consider it fairly. As Christians, we personally love the idea of children in our schools being directed to say a pledge that acknowledges God. We hope that hearing about God will cause them to ask questions and seek to know who or what “God” is. But honestly, wouldn’t we be the first to object if children were compelled to say “under Allah” as part of a pledge instead? Iraq and Afghanistan both have a very strong Muslim heritage and such a pledge would be historically appropriate for them. Would we approve of such a pledge for them? Or would be prefer that the children of those countries not be directed towards Islam in this way? Shouldn’t the matter of religion be left to their families and their own free will?

I am not going to be in the majority here by saying that I cannot personally support any government-instituted pledge which compels the pledge-e to acknowledge the existence of God - but I am hoping that I can at least encourage all of you, my fellow believers, to develop an informed opinion in this matter and to consider its possible future ramifications to the free practice and expression of our faith. I hope you will follow this post with your own debate and opinions.

Paul
 
I don't know much about Leland, I will however comment on the latter of your post.

The pledge of allegiance has always had "under God" - why the change now? (that is my question that I often ponder)....and if one would want 'under God' removed from the pledge of allegiance, are they also going to want 'under God' removed from the money as well? I have often wondered that...you meet some atheist on the street or in your daily life who takes offense to the fact that I am a wearing a "christian" t-shirt in public, yet they have no problems spending money that says 'under God' on it...how can that be?!?!

As far as children being required to say 'under Allah' - yeah I would object to that one, because we are living in America. That might be the wrong mind set to take but if they are in afganistan or iraq - by all means they can follow and live up to there muslim heritage...I don't know - I have some mixed feelings on the issue...
 
Well if you really think about it. Under God is how our country was founded, and eople who do not want us to say it in the pledge anymore are, dare I say it? Unpatriotic. They obviously do not care why our country was founded, they simply dont like to be reminded that God is sovriegn and will judge all at the end. THat is one of the reasons I think that people get mad about Under God being in the pledge...
 
You guys have made some good points, I appreciate your resurrection of my post - I was very pleasantly surprised to see it back at the top of the list. :)

The one thing I'd like to mention is that I believe the issue of 'under God' in a pledge isn't quite the same as the issue of 'In God we trust' on our money. Nobody using the money has to agree with what's printed on it - for instance, pretend that I believe Abraham Lincoln was a lousy president (I don't). Does this really interfere with me using money with his picture on it, considering that the money features a clear tribute to the former president? Now, if instead I were compelled to make a pledge that 'Abraham Lincoln was one of our great presidents', then I submit to you that I'd be forced into an awkward position - either I LIE as I take the pledge, or I am silent - in which case I have just announced by my silence that I don't like this former president who happens to be immensely well-regarded by 98% of our country's population. In fact, I've just announced that I may be either pro-slavery or anti-union, since that characterizes many of those who look back at Lincoln with disdain. So, would this put me in an awkward position? Wouldn't it be better if I simply wasn't required to take any such pledge, and instead be left to keep my feelings about gool ol' Honest Abe to myself? If your answer is yes - then I encourage you to consider whether it is really different if we substitute 'God' for Lincoln in the above example. ;)

Paul
 
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I do want to point out that "under God" was NOT always in our pledge. It was added in the 1950's to stand against communism which was athiest.

with that being said....

I disagree with the idea that this country was founded on Christianity. They were Christian values. Many of the founding fathers were not Christians they were Deist. They believed a God had created the earth set it in motion and then left humans to determine their own paths.

I believe the real question here is not should "God" be mentioned in government, rather I think the question that needs to be asked is, "Is the chuch doing it's part to put God out for the public to see?" I don't mean people on tv or Holywood's depiction of God, but are real everyday average Christians glorifying God, so people want to hear more about him.
 
A newly released biography of Washington really highlights how thoroughly Christian our first President was. Indeed, our founding fathers were not all a bunch of deists, though some certainly were. Deism was in those days what agnosticism is now - a very popular method for escaping the 'unwholesome' aspects of religion (sin/repentance in particular) without attacking God or Christianity outright.

Just as many agnostics attend Churches today (often for social or political reasons) and even speak politely about Christianity and even God, so did deists as well as other non-believers in the Age of Enlightenment. Benjamin Franklin is a great example of this - certainly, he was not a Christian except perhaps very late in his life, and no serious biographer of his would say otherwise - but reading certain quotes by Franklin would make you think he was.

}aul
 
hescominsoon said:
actually that's a myth that they were diest. Don't go by the history books that were written by now known historical revisionists. Go do the research on your own and you'll be surprised at what you find.


You mean... THink for ourselves? :eek: :eek: :eek: Are you nuts? The media tells us all we need to know. :p

I agree completely. You will elarn more and have better comprehension if you check the facts yourself.
 
I believe religion and sexuality should be kept out of our schools..

For the sole purpose that parents aught to have preiminence in the bringing up of thier children. Those children are a gift to THOSE parents and aught to be construde as such unless the child is in physical danger..

Religion should also include any creationary theories and discussions, as this is what it is, albiet in the guise of history.

To accomplish this, all major religions should be studied by a counsel and all defamitory remarks stricken from our schools =P
 
i dont quite uderstand the pledge problem...

1. most people adknowledge the existence of a God? the pledge doesnt say which one...

2. a true atheist really wont be that offended by talks of God... how can my silly beliefs hurt them?

the people complaining about the pledge are people looking for attention, money, or both
 
Zeena, you are assuming that we should have public schools.
Biblically, we shouldn't. Espescially not government run ones.

This country was founded as a Christian nation. Contrary to popular belief, the First Amendment applies only to Christianity. Not to other religions.
This country was founded so that you could attend whatever denomination you wanted, instead of the government telling you exactly what denomination you had to attend. (In England it was Anglican)
'Seperation of Church and State' never appears in the Constitution in any form whatsoever. It was in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a church.
The idea behind it means 'keep the government out of the church, but not the church out of the goverment..'
 
dorkelf,

its hard to say all the "progressive" freedom is leading to a easier country to have christianity...

50 years ago nobody had a problem with the pledge or it being said every day. but people had a problem with homosexuality being blatant and open?

50 years ago people had no problem with a prayer being said before a football game at a high school. but people had a problem with premarital sex being open and accepted by school officials...

but thats all effects of things.. heres my real problem with the pledge issue...

you dont hear the news complain about the other religions influence on politics and our country, just Christianity... because its not about seperating religion and the state, its about removing christianity from all influence in our country.

its not acceptable to be anti-semitic in our society, however people can object to the hint that the Christian God may be referred to.

You rarely hear of any religions wrong doings in the news besides Christians.

thats because its not simply about religion in General, Satan doesnt care if people chase false religions, nor will he push anyone to object to its influence on anything.
 
i dont quite uderstand the pledge problem...

1. most people adknowledge the existence of a God? the pledge doesnt say which one...

2. a true atheist really wont be that offended by talks of God... how can my silly beliefs hurt them?

the people complaining about the pledge are people looking for attention, money, or both

I must object to the idea that "people complaining about the pledge are people looking for attention." Those who express such an idea are in danger of APPEARING to be attacking the OPPOSING PERSON rather than the OPPOSING VIEWPOINT. As I said clearly in my post that was edited out, I don't believe that the above poster was intending to attack anyone personally by making such a statement. This is certainly not a personal attack on said poster, nor was the statement I made that was edited out. I object only to the IDEA he expressed - that those on the 'other side' of this argument (including myself of course) are either dishonest or out to get something.

Paul

I approved this with a caution to please not let this thread degenerate into personal attacks. I do feel that you have a right to express your views, but if you have a problem with someone please take it up with them privately instead of in a public forum. Thanks. ~~ James
 
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Note to moderator: I haven't taken dorkelfs post as a form of personal attack to me...

let me rephrase the part about people complaining.... whats the objective?

i dont see how it harms anyone to have it in there.. nor do i see how it harms christians in a muslim country to have a muslim prayer time established around them...

if under God rattles anyones beliefs, then maybe they should wonder why they oppose it so much..

on a final note, if ya want to debate it anymore, I'd love to, but for the mods sake pm me.. lol :)
 
dorkelf,

its hard to say all the "progressive" freedom is leading to a easier country to have christianity...

What, you mean the freedom for homosexual relationships to be normalized and the freedom to discriminate against whites and other non-minority groups when deciding who gets to go to college are not actually in the constitution? ;)

50 years ago nobody had a problem with the pledge or it being said every day. but people had a problem with homosexuality being blatant and open?

50 years ago people had no problem with a prayer being said before a football game at a high school. but people had a problem with premarital sex being open and accepted by school officials...

People today STILL have a big problem with 'homosexuality being blatant and open', so all the polls say. And 50 years ago, if you were black and happened to live in my neck of the woods you would definitely have been restricted to 'colored only' facilities, not to mention quite a lot of racial hatred. The good ol' days were definitely not all good - probably not as good as most conservative types tend to 'remember' them.

but thats all effects of things.. heres my real problem with the pledge issue...

you dont hear the news complain about the other religions influence on politics and our country, just Christianity... because its not about seperating religion and the state, its about removing christianity from all influence in our country.

Our mainstream news media in this country is highly liberal, always has been and probably always will be. I wouldn't ever recommend extrapolating what the wacky news media complains about as indicative of the viewpoints held by the general population. They're elitists like most liberals and quite out of touch with the general populace.

its not acceptable to be anti-semitic in our society, however people can object to the hint that the Christian God may be referred to.

You rarely hear of any religions wrong doings in the news besides Christians.

thats because its not simply about religion in General, Satan doesnt care if people chase false religions, nor will he push anyone to object to its influence on anything.

No argument with most of that, except to say that the liberal media has more to do with it than any cultural shift between now and the 'good ol' days' - whenever those were. :cool:

One other comment I'll make too is that to me, those who support the pledge seem to want to have it both ways concerning 'under God'. On one hand, they argue that 'under God' is not a reference to the Christian God specifically. Ok, fair enough. But then if that is so, how can attacking the pledge be approached as if it is an attack on Christianity, eh? ;)

I appreciate your comments PhaseTim, thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Paul
 
I don't think many people, Christians included, actually understand the history of the Pledge, whether from ignorance or selective memory.

The Pledge was authored by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and read as follows, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

NO mention of God.

The 1923/23 National Flag Conference changed the words, "my flag" to "the Flag of the United States of America, a change that Bellamy disliked and protested.

It wasn't until 1954, after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus that the words, "under God" were added, thus changing a patriotic oath to a public prayer.

Since dorkelf brought up John Leland, I would like to post another of Leland's quotes:

"The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever...Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians." - A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia.

Strange how you didn't use THAT Leland quote.
 
i dont quite uderstand the pledge problem...

1. most people adknowledge the existence of a God? the pledge doesnt say which one...

If that were the case, God in the pledge wouldn't be capitilized now would it? Again, I suggest you look into the history of the pledge and the inclusion of the words "under God". No offense, but you are committing a logical fallacy, namely an argument from ignorance.

2. a true atheist really wont be that offended by talks of God... how can my silly beliefs hurt them?

Another logical fallacy, the "no True Scotsman" fallacy. As an atheist, I am not offended by talks of God, I am, however, concerned when your religion is forced upon me.

the people complaining about the pledge are people looking for attention, money, or both

Maybe people who "complain" about the pledge are irriatated at those that don't understand it, its purpose or its history.
 
How do people force their religeon upon you. And it must be mroe than just Christians...

No, it's just Christians. If I lived in a different country, it would be a different, but I live here.

How is Christianity forced upon nonChristians? Take an objective step back and look around.

Christianity has a long history of forcing its beliefs on others. From the Crusades to the Conquitadors to Rome's involvement in Europe to the conversion of African American slaves brought to this country.

Today Christianity wages its coersion on all fronts. Turn on the radio or tv and there are ministers urging you to convert or suffer an eternity of torment. It's not like walking into the grocery store and having someone offer you a newspaper, you can't just politely decline with a smile. There's the ubiquitous, "I'LL PRAY FOR YOU!" What does that mean? Doesn't that really translate into, "I hope you change your mind, you know where you're going if you don't". It would be one thing if Christians had a live and let live outlook, but they believe it is there God given duty, their right to go out and preach the "good word".

Christianity is virtually everywhere, and where it isn't, you want it to be. Can you honestly say that Christianity isn't forced upon those that don't believe?
 
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